Oath Keepers: When the Teabaggers Just Aren’t Whacked Enough

[American Dream]

Searcher08 wrote:

How very 2 dimensional.

I think it's funny! In a sad sort of way...

But what's even sadder is how many people support- or even join- these sorts of reactionary militias...

[yathrib]

23, You seem to be blind to context, and the fact that words don't always mean what they seem to mean. No one could object to the absolute literal sense of the oaths. But what do they mean in the context of the world view held by virtually everyone in the organization?

Your stance reminds me of those people who saw "support our troops" ribbons and said "What's wrong with supporting our troops?" while willfully ignoring the real purpose of those stickers which was to silence opposition to the war by making it all about "hating the troops."

Although given the fact that you supported anti- anti-fascist Ron Paul, I don't know...

[8bitagent]

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, gays, Mexicans and "commies" in America...I'm pretty sure the right wing conspiracy/militia/patriot crowd would not object.

[Searcher08]

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, gays, Mexicans and "commies" in America...I'm pretty sure the right wing conspiracy/militia/patriot crowd would not object.

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, Arabs, Palestinians and "terrarists" outside America...I'm pretty sure the left wing conspiracy/Hate Speech/Pelosi loving Obama crowd would not object.

I like Gerald Celente's contempt for the Dems. He said he does expect much from the right because they are really stupid (FFS, just watch a Sarah Palin interview already), whereas the left have brains - and a capacity at self-justification (Obama's Peace Prize speech) that is limitless.

I saw the anti-war demo at the Whitehouse.
I really feel for Kucinich and am glad he has the love of a strong English redhead. Never under estimate an English redhead called Elizabeth.

[American Dream]

Searcher08 wrote:

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, Arabs, Palestinians and "terrarists" outside America...I'm pretty sure the left wing conspiracy/Hate Speech/Pelosi loving Obama crowd would not object.

I like Gerald Celente's contempt for the Dems. He said he does expect much from the right because they are really stupid (FFS, just watch a Sarah Palin interview already), whereas the left have brains - and a capacity at self-justification (Obama's Peace Prize speech) that is limitless.

Huh???

Why are you saying this about the "left wing"?

Do you maybe mean "mainstream liberals"?

[Searcher08]

Searcher08 wrote:

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, Arabs, Palestinians and "terrarists" outside America...I'm pretty sure the left wing conspiracy/Hate Speech/Pelosi loving Obama crowd would not object.

I like Gerald Celente's contempt for the Dems. He said he does expect much from the right because they are really stupid (FFS, just watch a Sarah Palin interview already), whereas the left have brains - and a capacity at self-justification (Obama's Peace Prize speech) that is limitless.

Huh???

Why are you saying this about the "left wing"?

Do you maybe mean "mainstream liberals"?

Surely the latter identify themselves as the former?

There has been much more noise created by them in response to numptys such as Palin or Beck than over the renwall of the Patriot Act or letting Yoo off the hook.

[lightningBugout]

With no ill will towards anyone in particular, I think I can safely say that this is the most personally depressing and frustrating thread I've encountered on this board. I think I'll come back and edit this when I have time later to explain why.

[American Dream]

8bitagent wrote:

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, gays, Mexicans and "commies" in America...I'm pretty sure the right wing conspiracy/militia/patriot crowd would not object.

Searcher08 wrote:

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, Arabs, Palestinians and "terrarists" outside America...I'm pretty sure the left wing conspiracy/Hate Speech/Pelosi loving Obama crowd would not object.

American Dream wrote:

Huh???

Why are you saying this about the "left wing"?

Do you maybe mean "mainstream liberals"?

Searcher08 wrote:

Surely the latter identify themselves as the former?

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.

I don't think that the "right wing conspiracy/militia/patriot crowd" are at all analogous to mainstream Democrats in the way that you are comparing them.

What would you say your politics are, by the way?

[8bitagent]

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, gays, Mexicans and "commies" in America...I'm pretty sure the right wing conspiracy/militia/patriot crowd would not object.

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, Arabs, Palestinians and "terrarists" outside America...I'm pretty sure the left wing conspiracy/Hate Speech/Pelosi loving Obama crowd would not object.

I like Gerald Celente's contempt for the Dems. He said he does expect much from the right because they are really stupid (FFS, just watch a Sarah Palin interview already), whereas the left have brains - and a capacity at self-justification (Obama's Peace Prize speech) that is limitless.

I saw the anti-war demo at the Whitehouse.
I really feel for Kucinich and am glad he has the love of a strong English redhead. Never under estimate an English redhead called Elizabeth.

That's probably the only saving grace of the alternative/fringe right wing in America; in that they are opposed to war, the subjegation and demonization of Arabs and Muslims; as well as being against the evil done to Palestinians. Funny thing is, til recently virtually every liberal I encountered online or off was a staunch defender of the Afghan war, and definitely for the "limited" Pakistan strikes. And this was during Bush!

However, now that the news media has bizarrely made hating the Afghan war trendy...oh...NOW all the sudden the left and Democrats are against it. Its like "where were you before?" Why the liberals thought the Afghan war was the "right war" despite the bombing deaths of over ten thousand and the maiming/ruining of tens of thousands more...I have no clue. I just know the gay/Mexican hating on both the mainstream and fringe right wing is appalling.

[8bitagent]

I don't think that the "right wing conspiracy/militia/patriot crowd" are at all analogous to mainstream Democrats in the way that you are comparing them.

What would you say your politics are, by the way?

It's a strange brew. I remember when some of the left would attack anyone criticizing Israel, now it seems the left by and large gets labeled "anti Semitic" for pressing the Palestinian human rights issue.

The right wing has its strange schisms:
You have the "anti war" version of the right wing, the Alex Jones/Ron Paul/Militia side. Then you have the Fox News/Bush loving/Rush/Beck
crowd that seems to be the bulk of the "tea parties". These guys are
pro war, very big into the "evil Muslims are a major threat", etc

Both find common ground against the evil "gays, Mexicans and commie socialists"The mainstream democrats still fall for the "Afghanistan is just, al Qaeda is a major threat, blah blah blah" stuff.

It's all just a big clusterfrak.

[lightningBugout]

So when do the Oath Keepers decide (since they seem to be comfortable with the notion that they are the willful arbiters of constitutional law interpretation) that, since <crazy>Obama was not born in the US and his presidency is not constitutional</crazy>, he has no authority and should not be obeyed?

And what does it mean that the contours of the Oath Keepers's organizational structure are so reminiscent to your average Fascist organization - a couple credentialed intellectuals (ie David Duke) at the top who lend validity to the group's reputability and stick to the carefully crafted playbook while many, if not most, of the supporters vocalize things like violently overthrowing the government or staging a military coup (ie similar to those Nazi skinheads who provide the muscle of White Nationalist organizations)?

What does it mean that the Obama is a Marxist dictator meme is so very popular on the OK comment boards? Is there something that negates the very obvious interpretation that the Oath Keepers have formed in response to (really dumb) conspiracy theories about Obama?

Are those of you who support the Oath Keepers, if only in principle, really willing to wholly discard the concerns of advocacy groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center, who grew out of the rather proud civil rights movement and who have concluded that the OK represent a surge in extremism? Who's next to go? Amnesty International? Planned Parenthood?

[compared2what?]

I have to say that I too feel frustrated.

Will no one respond to me on substance? By which I mean: On the substance of my remarks about the thread topic?

To recap, they are:

(1) They're vowing NOT to do things that are already NOT being done. That's not worth a whole lot. I mean, I'd be happy to swear a oath of that kind right now: I will NOT obey the orders of any stormtroopers who have come to take away my food and property. And as a matter of fact, I really would NOT. They'd have to use force, I'm not fucking cooperating with those imaginary jackbooted thugs.

(2) Their activities, which one can acquaint oneself with via their website, don't have thing one to do with preserving or defending any constitutional rights. Some of which are on their bailiwick, since they and/or their ex- and current colleagues are OBEYING orders to violate them right now, in the present. For example, by warrantlessly wiretapping American citizens.

(3) They have close associations with proto-fascist, xenophobic, speech-suppressing bullies. I mean, Gathering of Eagles? Tea partiers?

(4) They're explicitly establishing a two-tier class system within the organization that puts the military above the civilian. Which is disturbing, since they're pretty much campaigning on the ten-fold implicit promise to use arms to force the people to whom the constitution gives legislative, executive and judicial powers (who are civilians, and NOT subject to the military chain of command) to exercise those powers the way the OK wants to see them used.

(5) You know the rest. So what about it?

As for the commodity of attention, those who manipulate the general populace's attention, for their self-serving purposes, know full well that it is a manipulatable commodity. And are quite successful at it.

I don't disagree, by and large. Though to me, that kind of attention's a very different commodity than the one of which we were speaking. But that's a matter of personal vocabulary and philosophy and not, like, a cavil or anything. I'm just saying.

[lightningBugout]

Yes. Thank you. This point wins a blue ribbon:

(4) They're explicitly establishing a two-tier class system within the organization that puts the military above the civilian. Which is disturbing, since they're pretty much campaigning on the ten-fold implicit promise to use arms to force the people to whom the constitution gives legislative, executive and judicial powers (who are civilians, and NOT subject to the military chain of command) to exercise those powers the way the OK wants to see them used

ps. May I ask why no one has yet speculated on whether the Oath Keepers are themselves a basically a tactical Intelligence cult?

[Searcher08]

8bitagent wrote:

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, gays, Mexicans and "commies" in America...I'm pretty sure the right wing conspiracy/militia/patriot crowd would not object.

Searcher08 wrote:

If the "Orwellian new world order police state control grid apparatus and brutality" was aimed at...oh I dunno, Arabs, Palestinians and "terrarists" outside America...I'm pretty sure the left wing conspiracy/Hate Speech/Pelosi loving Obama crowd would not object.

American Dream wrote:

Huh???

Why are you saying this about the "left wing"?

Do you maybe mean "mainstream liberals"?

Searcher08 wrote:

Surely the latter identify themselves as the former?

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.

I don't think that the "right wing conspiracy/militia/patriot crowd" are at all analogous to mainstream Democrats in the way that you are comparing them.

What would you say your politics are, by the way?

You have said you think I'm comparing apples and oranges but you havent said why.

RE the question on my politics, please stop acting like an utterly disingenuous asshole and go read some Stafford Beer as I have said about five times - and tell me where you learned to do Marxist questioning / enquiry- if as you say it wasn't from a group and wasnt from a book.
How are you going to transfer this skill that for you is very valuable and for whom there is a person who wants to learn how to do it? Even a web page reference analogous to the one I gave you for the Metamodel would do.

[American Dream]

Searcher08 wrote:

You have said you think I'm comparing apples and oranges but you havent said why.

RE the question on my politics, please stop acting like an utterly disingenuous asshole and go read some Stafford Beer as I have said about five times - and tell me where you learned to do Marxist questioning / enquiry- if as you say it wasn't from a group and wasnt from a book.
How are you going to transfer this skill that for you is very valuable and for whom there is a person who wants to learn how to do it? Even a web page reference analogous to the one I gave you for the Metamodel would do.

Searcher- It should be obvious to anyone who is politically conversant at all:


Right wing extremists such as those in the Oath Keepers are not at all analogous to mainstream Democrats as far as people are interpreting the right/left axis in North America.

Furthermore, while it might possibly be valid to say that mainstream Democrats are left of (the mythical) center, neither I nor anyone I know would describe Nancy Pelosi or Barack Obama as part of "the Left".

Those who protest the U.S.'s neo-Imperial wars are commonly considered top be in "the Left", as are the (anti-racist/anti-fascist) activists against the Israeli Occupation.


As to where I 'learned to do Marxist questioning / enquiry", who said I did? Certainly not me! I don't think I ever did...

Maybe you are imagining that others are like you: thoroughly trained and indoctrinated in a system or systems, and intellectually wedded to that?

As to your politics, are you saying that you follow the line of Stafford Beer? Given that he seems to be known as a management cybernetician and the creator of a problem-solving methodology but doesn't have a clear politics at all, I am baffled by your statement...