Polish President Lech Kaczynski killed in plane crash.

[chump]

" Author of the video seen by everyone by now has been stabbed near Kijow on 4.15 and transported in critical condition to the hospital in Kijow. On 4.16 three unidentified individuals unplugged him from life support system and stabbed him 3 more times. Andrij was pronounced dead that afternoon. Russian government claims it was a coincidence. "

Read more: http://gazbom.blogspot.com/2010/04/guy- ... z0lnH5jVyY

[Sweejak]

Via another forum

I saw Burgermeister's video earlier. She makes a number of statements that have no backing. How did she get black box info? From whom? It is remarkable that Merkel and Sarkozy didn't make it, Medvedev flew in terror ash cloud and all!

She makes an error that a good reporter should not make. She says their are gunshots from a small caliber pistol. What? There is evidence that there is something that sounds like gunshots, yes indeed. Small caliber pistol? maybe, but she makes it as if it were a statement of fact. This statement simply cannot be made as if it were fact. Where is the pistol or the sound analysis? How have other possibilities for the popping sounds been ruled out? I mean if we have a list of possibilities for the sounds we have to go down the list, not focus on one presumption and then call it a fact. In her conclusion she says "these facts" but most of the facts are media reports, true the media reports themselves are facts, but the media reports themselves do not call them facts. They are actually reports. Also her statement is full of "could haves", and a "likely scenario" if one listens closely. "An explosion could have torn away the wing". Gee. A missile could have too.

But, there is an actual quote from an air controller who says there was a language problem. In her presentation, without cites, this appears to be contradicted by Poles who knew him. If so it needs to be investigated by listening to the tapes, which by the way she says show that the pilot was not pressured. Again, how does she know? Who gave her the tape, who gave her the translation or transcript?

So, if my local newspaper says "people reported gunshots: I should not refer to that item and say, "these facts."

I know I'm sounding unusually obtuse, but I've learned a lot since 911.

Still, this is a video report, I hope to find a written article with more detail.

"The person who threw this movie the first was quickly removed and his account was deleted too! The author of this movie was Mendierej Andrei, who dug the knife in the vicinity of Kiev, April 15, 2010. It has been brought in an awful state to a hospital in Kiev, where he disconnected the apparatus "(information about the author's death the film turned out to be rumor - Editor's note)

Why the editor says this I don't know but I think this rumor will shortly disappear.

Some more stuff here:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwolnemedia.net%2F%3Fp%3D21277&sl=pl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

In short, could the plane have been jammed and misdirected. Yes.


Here's an online picture gallery taken during the crash site investigation and cleanup:
http://polskaweb.eu/news-galerie/299.html

Nothing for me in the stills. Stumps, branches. I just don't see it.

However, two things are interesting, the lamps being taken out or put in, but I would want to have a good look at them if I were investigating too. After all, one also takes videos and tapes in an investigation. Doing that is not in itself suspicious. Covering it up would be. If I were trying to cover-up I wouldn't have photographers around.

The second thing is the larger sat picture which shows the actual runway and that the plane was in fact coming in the an angle that is at least roughly correct rather than the smaller version which looks no where near the right angle.

[chump]

First, the plane crash with most of Polands top officials on board, and then the videographer is stabbed and taken to the hospital where someone removes his life support and finishes him off. It is too convenient.

Have you seen the video. Assuming that it is genuine (I know, that's a big assumption), I can hear the gunshots, then see the black guy running and then falling, and the white guy moving his arm. Of course that flies in the face of what Ms. Burgermeister said about there being no bodies found, but I think she expounds a fairly plausible scenario. It is interesting that the airport dismantled it's radar a few days before, and that somebody may have been mucking around with the runway lights.

This crash reminds me of Wellstone and 3407. Whatever. We'll never know.

[smiths]

given the evidence in the video i cant make out the white guy raising his hand, and i cant see people falling dowm,

i do however think it beyond doubt that as long as the sound file hasnt been tampered with those sounds are gunshots,

basically because each sound is exactly the same, no other noise - whether it be trees cracking, fires, or branches being snapped - would produce the same sound each time
i have to say i had formed no opinion either way although i did consider the sheer number of important people on the plane a worrying factor in its crash,
but if the radar info, the light tampering and the video are genuine then i think its veered into the dodgy crash territory,

the fact that no-one attended the funeral is also very problematic

[Sweejak]

First, the plane crash with most of Polands top officials on board, and then the videographer is stabbed and taken to the hospital where someone removes his life support and finishes him off. It is too convenient.

Have you seen the video. Assuming that it is genuine (I know, that's a big assumption), I can hear the gunshots, then see the black guy running and then falling, and the white guy moving his arm. Of course that flies in the face of what Ms. Burgermeister said about there being no bodies found, but I think she expounds a fairly plausible scenario. It is interesting that the airport dismantled it's radar a few days before, and that somebody may have been mucking around with the runway lights.

This crash reminds me of Wellstone and 3407. Whatever. We'll never know.

The film is almost certainly authentic, there almost identical scenes taken very soon after the crash on RT.

No huge pieces in this video, lots of foam was used to put out the fire. This tells me that the "Cameraman video" cannot give a reliable impression of the extent of the fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LDmjJyT ... #lq-lq2-hq

Yeah, I've got the video downloaded a couple of days ago and went thru it frame by frame. I do see people walking in the background thru the trees, I think. Why should I be surprised, after all the cameraman is doing the same thing. As for the pops, I won't call them gunshots, how about O2 cylinders, or a breaking tree branch which can sound just like a rifle shot. Sure, It's unlikely that 3 branches would break like that but maybe one of them is, maybe one is a can of hairspray, a tire, hydraulic components, ammo. I don't know. The Poles, Burgemeister says, have the video and are investigating -as they should. No bodies? Who did they just bury in Poland? Maybe no one is in the coffin.

The only evidence of the stabbing that I could find is one entry on, well it wasn't even a blog. That's it.
I see branches, stumps and wreckage, as for waving, the whole video is wavy. I see no black or white guy.
This is supposed to be the pilot waving his arm. "Hi there! I've had a mishap" The inset is even filtered inverse, just to make sure. Way back in the pod era of 911 I was amazed that I saw something, well, podlike. I was even more amazed that some of my friends saw nothing at all. I showed different angles. Still they said nothing was there. Finally I was satisfied with the pods being part of the landing gear system, which look just like pods. I still wonder why my friends saw absolutely nothing.



Eyewitness video:
"... parts of the plane were scattered on the ground and there was lots of blood, it was all torn apart, the people, the plane. There was no chance anyone could have survived." This is from a child. I don't think he is lying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OytAQFC ... lq2-hq-vhq

I will note that in the annotated video the translation is "shoot" but no one is saying shoot. The translator should say "sound of a shot" not "shoot". This is a miscommunication which is easily misinterpreted. If in fact if someone says "change of plan" as is reported, that indicates to me that these are perhaps looters and they see rescuers approaching, hence a warning to his buddies. You know, I think I've said that myself in my younger days. Or maybe they see the guy with the camera coming. Who knows.

This is mildly interesting. Fog in Smolensk. The poster says this is typical. FWIW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iAFTzTE ... lq2-hq-vhq

One of the Polish videos, a simulation shows numerous landing attempts. Isn't that nailed down yet?
http://wideo.gazeta.pl/wideo/10,105748, ... otu__.html

Another one has a Polish pilot at the scene describing tree damage.... or something. Well, all I can say is that Poles are on the scene, apparently free to walk around and give their analysis. There are 2 simulations in this one.

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/ ... trofy.html

For me, nothing yet. It's not at the top of my list but I'll keep looking.

[Sweejak]

Medvedev did attend the funeral he even flew thru Iceland's terrorist ash cloud.
The EU didn't like these guys. They were obstructions- as are any patriots, and they didn't come. The Russians who rightly thought Kaczynski was sometimes anti-Russian came. It may be all for appearances. if so what were Merkel and Sarkosy thinking?

In an ice storm out here we were wandering around and I kept hearing rifle shots, and I mean exactly like a high powered rifle. They had to be rifles because they were one "shot" after the other, but they were branches breaking. The conditions are quite different obviously, but there were a lot of damaged trees and debris in the trees as shown in the videos. However, I don't think they are tree branches. My best guess O2 cylinders, there should have been at least 100 on board.

[Sweejak]

Cite for the editor's note which I pasted above:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... =&ie=UTF-8

Full paste:

Assuming the authenticity of the author filmiku risked mortal danger as a witness. So I put the information that comes from the Internet, and the truth alone can not fix, but I think that more editors being able to verify whether a man of that name was in the vicinity of Smolensk, and talked to families that what he saw, and other facts. If this is a false trail might be able to inquire whether the local residents have heard something about this filmiku and its author. Here is the info:

"The person who threw this movie the first was quickly removed and his account was deleted too! The author of this movie was Mendierej Andrei, who dug the knife in the vicinity of Kiev, April 15, 2010. It has been brought in an awful state to a hospital in Kiev, where the apparatus disconnected "(information on the author's death the film turned out to be rumor - Editor's note)

I know that the Polish prosecutor's office will examine this movie. But in the past, many investigations had remitted, were at stake when possible objections to the well known politician and businessman. Still less could be the case when the game would fall international affairs. Therefore I have reason to believe that the prosecution will undermine the credibility of the material - even if it is true. Such matters should investigate and disclose to the media. Is the television and radio stations do not have specialized equipment to check the reliability of the material and the prominence of votes going there?

The fact that everything conspires against the presidential airplane (suddenly very bad weather, incorrect indications of the altimeters, not acting TAWS, poor co-operation with the tower) is already making serious doubts. For the entry on my blog I've added a lot of interesting new information and hypotheses about the likely (intentional or inadvertent) blame the Russians. And if you bear at least part of the blame (even unintentional) is that disclosure would be a huge blow to the image of Russia - which is why it can not be ruled out attempts to hide these facts.

We publish a letter received from a specialist that developed the three-dimensional navigation systems, which sheds new light on the possible causes of an aviation disaster in Smolensk. Here are the contents of this letter:

"I am a lecturer at the University of Hambuskiej and the employee responsible for the so-called. advanced research and development of Concern HarmanBecker Automotive Systems. I developed and co-created three-dimensional navigation systems, and therefore difficult for me to imagine how TAWS system that was installed in the airplane of the President, may fail if he does not "help." (More here )

Author: Philip Stankiewicz
Material sent to the "Free Media"

[Sweejak]

Lavelle is pretty funny sometimes, check the reaction when Gerbert says - "I mistrust the Russian government for the same reasons the
Russians themselves do not trust it". Ouch!

This is a good show, if you like this sort of stuff. It's about the geopolitical relationship between Poland and Russia/Soviet Union In light of Katyn.
http://rt.com/About_Us/Programmes/Cross ... 64874.html

Peter is correct about Putin's statement, the one where he says the collapse of the SU was a catastrophe. This thing won't die, it's as entrenched as the Ahmadinejad mistranslation.

[Sweejak]

A few more finds:

First, what appears to be the cockpit is the tail section, upside down. I read a long multi-part analysis on a blog which analyzed the pattern of tree damage.


I've lost the link to the analysis, it's on a forum topic which has over 300 pages of entries! But here is a sim which is essentially the same thing. So it seems the plane landed upside down. At least with a belly landing you have landing gear, the baggage hold and wing root for some kind of protection. I've read that the TU had very little overhead storage, in fact I think I flew one from Moscow to St. Petersburg, and it was like a small US commuter plane. Anyway, the passengers had almost no protection when they hit. It's like an aluminum balloon. One poster showed the Aloha Air incident when an entire top section was ripped off turning the jet into a convertible. I have no suspicions on why there are no bodies seen on any of the videos. I still have no clue on the "shots".

Sim here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_9GTPSL ... lq2-hq-vhq
Aloha Air:
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/2001/ ... ews1_b.jpg

There is another video taken very early before the arrival of the fire crews, in fact towards the end they arrive. There was not a lot of fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQUCTbg8 ... r_embedded

An article which discusses the pilot.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... Gw8ascoqdg

The sidebar has more links:
Employee airfield Smolensk: "We are all guilty"
Poland will find out why the lights have changed the approach to the airfield Smolensk
IAC completed the decoding of "black boxes" Tu-154

[Sweejak]

Sergei of the Picasa page has done a remarkable job with the dynamics of the actual crash. I wonder if he is a pro. I assume he went to the site and took the photos. He had to, there is no way that he could match the location of the trees to the photos in all cases.

At this point there is no where to go until the black box recordings are made available. We have a convincing "how" but no "why", as Sergei himself says. The cause of the deviation from the glide path is still unknown.

In Sergei's analysis he says that it was absolutely clear that the landing would fail and the only way out was an immediate climb which did not happen. At the planes altitude he would have crashed even if there were no trees.

Sergei sees evidence that the pilot did roll the plane perhaps in an attempt to miss that killer birch.

One flag for me! The data for the glide path was on the IAC website and Sergei says it has since disappeared.

Go ahead, it's only in 5 parts.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... =&ie=UTF-8

[chump]

Found this through Conspiracy Planet. A good synopsis of the case for sabotage and assasination.

http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/201 ... 1937.shtml
KATYN 2. Polish opposition party demands international investigation into plane crash
Publication time: 26 April 2010, 15:05

http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/201 ... 1965.shtml
KATYN 2. Polish Military Prosecutor's Office: The video made several minutes after the crash of Polish president's plane in Russia is true
Publication time: 28 April 2010, 21:00

The video made several minutes after the crash of Polish president's plane near Smolensk, Russia is true, Military Prosecutor's Office of Poland said, the Azerbaijani news agency APA reports quoting CNN Turk.

The video shows three moving silhouettes, arms, person jumping from the plane, laughter and the pilot's voice calling for help are heard.

Poland's Military Prosecutor's Office said the documents related to the flight were being investigated, 60 gave testimonies, but it was impossible to specify the exact time of the crash.

The author of the video is reportedly Andrey Menderey. He was stabbed shortly after the video was released on the internet. Andrey Menderey was unplugged from the artificial respirator by an unidentified person.

http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/201 ... 1964.shtml
KATYN 2. FSB killer team needed 15 minutes to finish off the survived Poles
Publication time: 28 April 2010, 19:56

New information about the Russian massacre in the forest near Katyb on 10 April 2010 has been reported from Poland by Austrian journalist Jane Burgermeister:

"A black box recovered from the wreckage of the plane that crashed in Smolensk killing the Polish President and key military and civilian officials stopped at 8:41 am, and not at 8:56 am, which is the time point given so far by officials. An electric pylon in the crash zone also stopped transmitting power at 8:39 on April 10th, corroborating the notion that the Tupolev crashed about 15 minutes earlier than official accounts. Russian investigators examining one of the black boxes called MARS BM found that it stopped at 8:41, Poland's onet.pl reports. It has also emerged that there were 4 black boxes (now 5 - KC) in the Tupolev and not three as stated originally by officials. The discrepancy between the official version of the time point when the crash occurred and the actual time of the crash 15 minutes earlier will fuel speculation that the crash was engineered and a cover up is in progress. A video with four gunshots has surfaced apparently showing surviving members of the crew being shot as part of a clean up operation that could have been performed in the 15 minute time gap. The Polish and Russian governments have postponed releasing details of the black boxes", journalist, who is conducting her own journalistic investigation of a new massacre near Smolensk, wrote.

Meanwhile, the Polish reader of KC, Sebastian, sent a letter reporting information that had previously been seen on the Polish forums. He writes:

"Hello! Firstly sorry for my bad English, but I think you will understand the meaning of my letter. I have something to say about your text "KATYN 2. Polish opposition party demands international investigation into plane crash". Polish Journalist W. Bater who informed about Polish plane crash with words: "I have phone called on 8:40 and the crash happened 4 min before it (10.04.10). When the new facts were found out on last Friday he "has found that his phone call was on 8:49". That's not all! Yesterday (on Sunday) we had in two biggest news stations (Polsat and TVN) another wave of brutal propaganda about President Kachinsky ostensibly forcing pilot to land like in 2008 - even in the light of fact that there was only one landing attempt. One last thing is Gazeta Wyborcza and their internet site: I'll translate important things. "Presidential plane crashed at Smolensk airport. No one survived, said gubernator of Smolensk". It's nothing special but time of posting this news is very interest 2010-04-10 08:38. (thanks for Google search by date on that website). How could they know that before firemen arrive there? Gazeta Wyborcza is the biggest news paper in Poland and their manipulate methods are well know from years (probably friends of Russia by things which their doing especially now). They were trying to create manifestation against funeral of president in Vavele and wave of attacks meant up was also their fault. This tabloid has big field to manipulate and they are showing it now because they start this another wave of attacks. Why this time journalists were in different plane? I think they are know something and they can be implicated in the case. Like I said they're doing it from years and its not only the GW but also Polsat, TVN and others. They ridicule anti-Russians and praise Russian friends like Donald Tusk and his party which really doesn't have any plan and doing nothing from years in Polish parliament. Thanks for read my few thoughts. Sebastian from Poland.

On attempts of the mainstream press to shade the next bloody crime of Russians has also reported by our Estonian reader sending a letter to the editor of Kavkaz Center. He writes:

"Greetings from Estonia! I often read your site. Very good information. The main thing that you're writing the truth, almost no lies (we try as much as possible to use the information from Russian terrorists, so-called "Russian media", have not been confirmed by the independent sources - KC). I feel that this is an international conspiracy. For example, here in Estonia, is too, bow before the Russians and Putin. That would not bring good to anyone.... Tiit

Meanwhile, the Poles have made another examination of the video file with the shooting of survived passengers of the plane. In zoomed version are clearly seen the KGB terrorists and survivors, who were then finished off. Click to watch the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGeHD0SQrYE

http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/201 ... 1963.shtml
Austrian MP: ''Kadyrov is one of biggest terrorists, Putin is his mentor, FSB terrorists have training camps in Austria''
Publication time: 28 April 2010, 19:46

[Sweejak]

There is a time discrepancy, it's discussed in Sergey's analysis. The cutting of the power line ought to nail it.

Kavkaz occasionally has some interesting reports, but in no way can their analysis be considered objective and it sometimes sounds like something Sorcha Faal would emit. They had to slowly walk back from their earlier reporting which I see is no longer on their site.

This is pretty interesting:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/alleged-bla ... crash.html

I don't know why the video was pulled, I've seen the same thing happen to Al Jazeera videos. I mean if you want to get rid of the video just disappear it totally which is what youtube has done before rather than "privatize" it.

I don't think there was anyone left to shoot, especially the pilot. They've given up on the waving hand, I hope, and the flesh colored thing is suggestive but that's all I can say it's just too borderline, too low rez. I'm not sure that pile is the nose but it's the best shot I can find.


Misc.
Prosecutor: 4 versions of the causes of the disaster

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... XkFG4jObPA

[Sepka]

I'm extremely suspicious of the 'pistol shots' theory. If I were going to finish off the survivors from a plane crash, I'd use a club. Bullet holes will result in questions, but nobody is going to think twice about blunt force trauma injuries on the body of an air crash victim.

The allegations of Russians shooting Poles with pistols does, on the other paw, provide a nice emotional resonance with the Katyn Wood massacre for anyone who wants to inflame passions.

[stickdog99]

The conflicting info and ready-made "pressure" & "miscommunication" narratives remind me of the "horrible weather, magic icing" explanation all the major media outlets initially floated after Wellstone's crash.

[Sweejak]

Everything about this makes me suspicious, but when I look there is very, very, little there. So far.

I did hear a report about some of the families of the victims being raided by police. I don't know how good it was, but even if true, don't you think that having half of your nation's leaders wiped out would result in an intense power struggle. There have been a few inklings that the Poles might not want full transparency, but international investigators, I'm told, will have access. Compare that with 9-11.

This below is just forum stuff. It does however offer an explanation, (believable, IMO, which does not necessarily mean I think it's true, I just don't know), for the radar moving.

FYI and FWIW:

ser2010 wrote (a):
anpavl wrote (a):
According to media reports, the Russians brought a special navigation equipment for the arrival of heads of Russian and Polish government of Vladimir Putin and Donald Tusk, which was removed before the arrivals L. Kaczynski

A reasonable question (type of double standards) ... Although certain of the laws of Russia all will be right ...

Perhaps I don't comprehend everything correctly ...

The matter of this special navigational system has been discussed in Poland some three days ago. The outcome was, that the system in question was MMLS. Neither of the Polish Tu-154M was equipped for using this system so, if it was indeed installed on that particular day and then removed, it would have been only for the aircraft of prime minister Putin, that was capable of using MMLS (and not for Tusk). Hence, it's rather not justified to talk of double standards.

The fact that Polish prosecutors intend to check on that doesn't seem to be significant.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... =&ie=UTF-8

Some time stamped pics of the waiting reception and the author of the entry says:

Nicholas Ermolaev "April 30, 2010, 3:33

I read the version that the plane crashed 15 minutes earlier. http://www.dni.ru/society/2010/4/28/190680.html

Not likely! My companions were in Katyn 10.04.10g. One of the pictures was taken by them at precisely the moment when the Polish journalist colleague, who was at the airport, reported the crash. http://www.pomni-smolensk.ru/index.php? ... & Itemid = 27 The photo clearly recorded during 11-09. Polish journalist immediately reported the incident to the second my friend (on the photo - next to the journalist)
Of course, those who were at the airport were in shock. But do not think that complete paralysis lasted 28 minutes, especially a journalist, a professional automatism which is configured to prompt transfer of information.
http://tinyurl.com/24hzpeg

Gotta love the translated description of a journalist.