I have no such role here, in fact I have not posted here in months, but this thread caught my attention because it is clearly 100% anti-Israel and I think someone needed to speak for the other side.
Israel has a right to defend itself. We can argue about the means, we can point fingers when mistakes are made, but, the irreducible fact is that the right of self defense is a sovereign right that cannot be taken away.
Israel was not defending itself in boarding that ship.
The origins of this date to May of 1948 when Israel was established as a nation. The same day this occurred, all the nations of the Middle East declared war and sent their armies to annihilate the Jews and drive them into the sea.
That sounds so dramatic, but it is a version of history that doesnt stand up to the facts
I daresay that if you lived in Israel, with friends and family, and had to face the specter every day of rockets raining down on a civilian populace - and suicide bombers blowing themselves up in crowded marketplaces - you would be acting in a similar fashion as Israel is.
I DARESAY I WOULDNT.
I grew up in the seventies in Belfast and have had friends and relatives blown up, shot, murdered.
The Israeli approach would have been to turn West Belfast into Dresden.
Israel is a rock that is not going anywhere - I dont care how many resolutions the UN passes, or how many people get upset by it. They arent going anywhere.
You dont see this is variations on a theme of "We are Chosen People" so "we can do WTF we want".
The US WILL turn their back on Israel (it is already happening) leaving Israel isolated and alone. Iran and Russia (along with Libya and others) are going to attempt to attack Israel and are going to be annihilated.
Iran is a threat because it creates a balence of power in the Mid East. Why on Earth would either Russia or Iran attack Israel given the enormous costs of doing so? They are rational actors who do not seek the annihilation of their populations! The Iranians are anti-Zionist, anti how Palestinians are treated, not anti Jewish. You know that there is no language in Iranian for 'wiping Israel off the map'. It referred to regime change.
I have always been amazed at the level of restraint that Israel has shown over the years.
What for you are examples of this restraint? When I see Operation Cast Lead and white phosphorous raining down, I dont see restraint...
Critics of Israel’s action in the flotilla operation keep saying that the Gaza-bound ship was in international waters and that therefore the boarding was illegal. This seems self-evident—to those ignorant of international law on the matter. And of course the press is not in the business of offering information to counter that ignorance, if such an act would go against the liberal cause du jour.
So why did the IDF board in international waters rather than just wait?
The illegality is clear. This was not a weapons ship (sorry, potato peelers, knives and iron bars dont count)
It's in plain fucking English in any international law case book...boarding that ship was not illegal, it cannot be construed as illegal, and anyone who thinks that it can quite simply doesn't know the first thing about international law. Detaining people in an international armed conflict is not an international crime, nor was any act taken in furtherance of a private aim, which is an essential element of piracy that is taken as a given by The International Maritime Bureau (IMB) (which endorsement or not surely does not have the authority to unilaterally amend UNCLOS).
Perhaps you are a lawyer or even an maritime lawyer. However, if you are, please back up your statement with specific case law.
Whether or not Israel broke international law in the way that they conducted the blockade is a distinct question and one that is, as most questions of IHL are, debatable.
This contradicts what you said in the previous paragraph, where you say it CLEARLY WAS LEGAL
As for those of you who are chlamoring for the US to cut ties with Israel, consider the facts:
That is an incredibly short sighted statement... the US "cutting the cord" wouldn't accomplish anything. The US needs to facilitate peace, not wash their hands with the situation that they were instrumental in causing to begin with and then pretend that they had nothing to do with it.
Please point out where the US has gone against the wishes of Israel in a significant manner in the last 40 years - even in terms of UN resolutions.
Let's look at the timeline:
1. US allows the Hollocaust to take place and denied Jews seeking refuge access to the country.
HAve you the answers for these questions?
http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/tenquestions.cfm2. After WWII they don't know what to do with the millions of displaced Jews so (partly based on guilt) the US encouraged the UN to give them UK owned Palestine.
3. Israel has been in a never ending battle with the surrounding Arab Nations ever since.
What if Israel was in a battle because Zionists always saw the Palestinians as vermin to be got rid of?
My point is just that the US was a major factor in the situation. It's not like this was an unforeseeable occurrence, what did they expect would happen when they created Israel?
The paragraph seems to shift the blame to it being the US's fault. AGAIN this to me is more of the entitement / exceptionalist attitude which is not being faced. Everything is ALWAYS someone ELSES fault and has nothing to do with us.
The problem was that no country wanted the Jews so they sent them to the Middle East... they figured that since they won the war they had the right to take the land away from the Palestinians consequences be damned.
"I won, so Ill do what the fuck I want". Not really appropriate for a complex inter-dependent interconnected world in the 21st century is it.
So, now, 50+ years later, the solution is for the US to walk away from the mess they helped create? I don't think that's a viable solution.
It is always one step to go from blame to punishment. Israel woud rather nuke the US and Europe than let that happen
You can't take something from someone, give it to someone else, and then walk away when the person you took it from starts fighting with the person you gave it to... that's not the right thing to do.
If the people who are fighting can see that there is PLENTY and ENOUGH rather than SCARCITY, they do not need the outside agency to act as a referee.
As for my news sources there is actual video footage of one of the activists saying herself that the first wave of Israeli commandos came aboard with only non lethal weapons, perhaps it is you reading the propaganda of Hamas and not I that has bad news sources?
You can find more and more activists saying that the passengers on the ship were shot at from both helicopters AND boats BEFORE the landings.
I will end with this:
The Jews have a right to feel threatened and insecure. I don't think any non-Jew will understand things from their point of view.
This isnt about Jewishness, this is about Israel.
THIS is a real issue of Israeli racist exceptionalism, coming down to inherently racist notions of being 'a chosen people'. No you are not. You are just like the rest of us.
But at some point, the more enlightened voices among them (such as Israel Shahak) need to come to terms with how their paranoia is perpetuating their problems.
This IMHO for everyone on the planet, not just in the Middle East
All people deserve a right to have a homeland of their own. Jews wanted one, so ok.
Not as a zero sum game.
But the double standards are the problem. If you hold your values only for your group, and deny them to outsiders, how do you think it will wash?
For me, that is a question that the Israeli right wing, of all people on the planet most need to answer
When Jews really attempt to erase their double-standard mentality (and see us as equals to themselves), and acknowledge the tragic role it has played in their history, we will see some change.
I see that, but in a mirror image
When Zionists really attempt to erase their double-standard mentality (and see themselves as equals to others), and acknowledge the tragic role it has played in their history, we will see transformation.
