Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby chiggerbit » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:49 pm

Username said:

I'm deeply disturbed at the amount of coverage this story is not getting in the news since the beginning. Between the oil spill and Natalie fucking Holloway there is absolutely nothing else going on in the world. If anyone out there happens to see Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann you can tell them, for me, they suck, and I am no longer a fan.


In fairness to Maddow and Olbermann, there are a lot of personalities and possibly other agenda floating in that flotilla, and with them, the possibilites of some stink bombs ready to go off at any time. I'm just thinking of Cindy Sheehan's alliances (who knows how deep) with the whacky "Capt" Erik May, as well as the Muslim Brotherhood, assuming that was reported accurately quite some time ago. I know, I know, have said it myself, alliances come and alliances go, but that kind of thing can be a real tar baby for personalities in the media.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Sweejak » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:40 pm

Eric May. He showed up at CC, there were never any "alliances". Ghost Troop was at first pretty interesting and a great concept. May is a fascinating character, but the only connections to Sheehan were manufactured by people who wanted to smear Sheehan IMO.

I don't watch TV but Maddow is disappointing to say the least.

Rachel Maddow on Israel Palestinian conflict
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpP6o7-beNc
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby The Consul » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:24 pm

Maybe someone has already said this, but if Berlin's Flotilla was aiming as a "set up" to get press by "breaking" the blockade for international attention could not Israel have imagined that the worst thing she could have done was storm the flotilla in international waters? Could they not have stopped the flotilla with non lethal means in their own waters? Could they at least have floated a pill (true or not) that suspected and/or known terrorists were on board? Surely, Mossad had onboard assets.
They say The Netanyahoo approved of the plan before he left for his trip. This hardly makes sense. He authorized the use of deadly force in international waters against a group of self proclaimed peace activists? Was he looking for an excuse not to meet with Obama and Clinton? Did he not realize what this act would do to Israel's image? Or was this all a psyop to put the final nail into the "peace process" coffin and provoke a furious attack by Hamas that could also justify a military response against Iran? Could be. Whatever it is, it is seldom as it appears.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby chiggerbit » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:50 pm

The Consul said:

Maybe someone has already said this, but if Berlin's Flotilla was aiming as a "set up" to get press by "breaking" the blockade for international attention could not Israel have imagined that the worst thing she could have done was storm the flotilla in international waters? Could they not have stopped the flotilla with non lethal means in their own waters?


Maybe it's some new form of infectious disease. Look at how the Pope and his defenders kept making comments that only served to make his actions look worse and worse. Or outrageous statements by BP's representatives. It reminds me of the movie, trying to remember the name of it--Liar, Liar?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Sweejak » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:51 pm

Or was this all a psyop to put the final nail into the "peace process" coffin and provoke a furious attack by Hamas that could also justify a military response against Iran? Could be. Whatever it is, it is seldom as it appears.

Along those lines there is this in Counterpunch, but it seems to me Israel has never needed very much to derail the "peace process", simple lies and a little posturing usually work just fine. The US does whatever it wants and the MSM follows.

The Real Motive Behind the Gaza Flotilla Attack
http://www.counterpunch.org/amiri06042010.html
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby sunny » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:52 pm

The Consul wrote:Maybe someone has already said this, but if Berlin's Flotilla was aiming as a "set up" to get press by "breaking" the blockade for international attention could not Israel have imagined that the worst thing she could have done was storm the flotilla in international waters? Could they not have stopped the flotilla with non lethal means in their own waters? Could they at least have floated a pill (true or not) that suspected and/or known terrorists were on board? Surely, Mossad had onboard assets.
They say The Netanyahoo approved of the plan before he left for his trip. This hardly makes sense. He authorized the use of deadly force in international waters against a group of self proclaimed peace activists? Was he looking for an excuse not to meet with Obama and Clinton? Did he not realize what this act would do to Israel's image? Or was this all a psyop to put the final nail into the "peace process" coffin and provoke a furious attack by Hamas that could also justify a military response against Iran? Could be. Whatever it is, it is seldom as it appears.


Agreed, but maybe Israel is just that desperate to prevent the outside world from getting a good look at conditions inside Gaza.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Percival » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:48 pm

Simulist wrote:Not only does this board have a significant number of intelligent people who post regularly, it has many intelligent readers also, people who read Rigorous Intuition almost daily, but who either normally do not post or are people who do not post at all.

Someone emailed me this afternoon, asking me to respond to some of the remarks that were made earlier in the day, remarks that "demand a response" the letter said. I consider this person to be not only extraordinarily intelligent, but someone who also has a depth of understanding in these matters that I can only hope someday to acquire. Rather than to feign this depth of knowledge (I don't "feign" well, and wouldn't be inclined to try...), I've decided to post portions of this letter verbatim, but without attribution as was requested.

I found the responses to the following quotes to be informative and deeply thought provoking. My hope is that others here will benefit from reading them also.

In 1962 John F Kennedy did the same thing Israel is doing today against Cuba: imposing a blockade tp prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

A hostile state, you say? Yes, Hamas is a SELF PROCLAIMED enemy of Israel and their official mission statement even vows that there will NEVER be peace until every Jew is removed from the region, killed or run into the Med Sea. They made this vow and have made no secret of it and they have backed up that declaration by firing over 6000 rockets in to Israel since 2007 when they took control of the Gaza. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas and the rest of the world claim they are victims when Israel tris to protect itself from yet more rockets.


The Response:

The two situations are not remotely comparable. First, Gaza is not a "state" -- it is a territory ILLEGALLY occupied by Israel, and its population of this severely overcrowded strip of land is over 90% refugees who were stripped of all their property and human rights so that foreign colonists could set up a racist "Jewish state" on Palestinian land. The people of Gaza are the destitute victims of Israeli ethnic cleansing, theft and terrorism from 1948 onward. Given the statistics about toxic dumping in Gaza and deliberately induced malnutrition, not to mention the denial of clean water and adequate medical equipment and services to this imprisoned population of refugees, they are the victims of de facto genocide, as well. Under international law and ALL relevant UN resolutions, Israel is the aggressor and the Palestinians are the victims of its belligerency, racism and greed.

But, you say, these ships meant no harm, they were carrying humanitarian relief for the people of the Gaza.

No.

The organizer of the flotilla itself, Greta Berlin, admitted that it was NOT about humanitarian relief or the people of the Gaza, it was about getting international attention for an attempt to BREAK THE BLOCKADE, in other words they manufactured and staged and provoked this confrontation to get more attention to their cause de jour, break the blockade and end Israel's inspection regime which would mean unlimited shipping in to the Gaza resulting in unlimited arms supplies to Hamas militants.

If this flotilla was really about humanitarian relief, and we NOW KNOW it was not from the comments of the organizer herself, Greta Berlin, all they had to do is do what HUNDREDS of other ships WEEKLY do, offload at the nearest Israeli port for inspection and then be on their merry way.


The Response:

It is not the cause "du jour" for individuals of conscience to heroically attempt to do what many governments are too cowardly to do: break a siege that is being imposed in violation of the law and all norms of human decency by a rogue, racist, terrorist state, in violation of more international laws and UN resolutions than any other state on the planet. Israel receives billions of dollars' worth of advanced weaponry annually from the world's biggest military superpower and uses it primarily and overwhelmingly against a captive population of civilian victims of its own ethnic cleansing. If there were any justice at all, it would be the massive shipments of weapons to Israel that would be stopped, not shipments of food and medicines and construction materials and schoolbooks for children to the Palestinians imprisoned in Gaza.

In fact EVERY WEEK Israel ITSELF delivers 10,000 TONS of food and water and other supplies to the people of the Gaza and this even after those very people continue to support a self proclaimed and sworn enemy of Israel and its people (Yes JEWS).


The Response:

Who you gonna believe, Israel or independent organizations on the ground? Malnutrition is skyrocketing and children, who make up more than 50% of Gaza's population, are suffering from stunted growth, anemia and PTSD, according to all independent observers on the ground. Why does Israel prevent lentils, tea, macaroni, shoes, clothing, school-books, paper and cement for reconstruction? Children need homes to live in, and schools to study in, but instead they get to live in cloth tents or the bombed rubble of their homes, eating food that is often spoiled due to lack of refrigeration, or cooked on fires made with salvaged wood, courtesy of Israel's "humanitarianism". By destroying Gaza's only power plant and water purification plant, Israel prevents access to clean drinking water or even toys for the children of Palestinians in Gaza, while ILLEGAL Jewish colonies on the Palestinians' stolen land are equipped with swimming pools and playgrounds, subsidized by American "aid". Your self-pitying whines are obscene.

As has been recently said, the aim, the whole point of this relentless international campaign against Israel and its LEGAL blockade is to ultimately deprive Israel of any legit means of defending itself against this self proclaimed enemy and internationally designated terrorist organization, the Hamas. The Israelis, my own people, are constantly demonized and ghettoized and villified even as states such as Iran and others, including Hamas, are preparing yet another FINAL SOLUTION.


The Response:

It is not a LEGAL blockade, it is a war crime, just as the Apartheid Wall that surrounds Palestinians in the West Bank was declared illegal by the International Criminal Court at the Hague. It is the Palestinian people who need defending from their Israeli tormentors and killers and jailers. As prisoners of a brutal military occupation, they need the rest of the world to grow some balls and enforce the Palestinians' legitimate HUMAN rights, including the right of return and reparations for the horrors they have been subjected to for over 60 years, for the sole reason that they are NOT Jewish.



I will say this in response to our mystery poster. Most of what I posted was my opinion and you are certainly entitled to a different opinion than the one I hold but when I tell you that the blockade is legal, that is not an opinion, I know what international law says, it is my profession to know such things and I know for a fact that the blockade is perfectly legal, you may not like it, it may not be a good thing, that is certainly all up for debate and I would be happy to debate that, but when you say it is illegal you are not only wrong but you lose some credibility with me because I know better, it is legal, it has been challenged in court and the challenge was tossed. Bandying about the word war crime with such ease doesnt make it so. You are allowing your emotions to get in the way of reason.

As to the rest of your comments I can only ask if you have been to the Gaza and seen for yourself all these things you have been led to believe by Hamas propagandists? I have been there and it isnt even remotely as bad as those propagandists want you to believe, I wouldnt say it is good there, Israel has taken a hard line against that population because of their support for Hamas, but it is NOT what some have led you to believe it is.



Your self-pitying whines are obscene.



You will get more respect from me next time if you can leave out the personal attacks and stick to the issues.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Simulist » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:19 pm

Percival wrote:You will get more respect from me next time if you can leave out the personal attacks and stick to the issues.

Percival, this may come as a surprise, but your respect really isn't too much of a value to me.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Percival » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:23 pm

Let me specifically address the legality of the blockade, I dont have a lot of time but I will try and post a little now and later:

As with all matters of internationa law this is shady and not as black and white as many would like it to be, what we do in this case is look at historical precedent:

The historic British position was that once a blockade was declared, neutral ships could be stopped on the open seas if in transit to a blockaded country. Other powers resisted this interpretation, but since Britannia ruled the waves, they could basically stuff it. During the American Civil War, the US quietly adopted the British position, as we didn’t have enough US Navy ships to guard everything the Confederacy could use as a port.

International law (Declaration of London 1910) authorizes blockades and permits them to be enforced by boardings in international waters (presumably also permitting force to be used to carry out the lawful boardings). This is why Jack Kennedy was able to declare a blockade of Cuba in which ships bound for Cuba were to be boarded in international waters (some actually were) by the U.S. Navy, which was to use force if necessary to carry out the boardings and to seize any cargo covered by the terms of the blockade. I do not believe anyone at the time or since has accused Kennedy of being engaged in an act of piracy. Since Hamas has declared its goal to be the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state the blockade is lawful in the first instance — which means that the boarding and the use of necessary force were also lawful.

Thats all I have time for right now, when I get back to work monday and get access to legal search software I can provide some case citation.

Here is a good article I found with a quick google search:

http://opiniojuris.org/2010/06/01/did-t ... racy-nope/

http://volokh.com/2010/05/31/pollak-on- ... ent-842092
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Percival » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:24 pm

Simulist wrote:
Percival wrote:You will get more respect from me next time if you can leave out the personal attacks and stick to the issues.

Percival, this may come as a surprise, but your respect really isn't too much of a value to me.

I wasnt speaking to you I was speaking to your mystery poster friend.

You lost mine your first post when you decided to make this personal and attack me instead of my post, for no real reason at all.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Simulist » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:27 pm

Percival wrote:
Simulist wrote:
Percival wrote:You will get more respect from me next time if you can leave out the personal attacks and stick to the issues.

Percival, this may come as a surprise, but your respect really isn't too much of a value to me.

I wasnt speaking to you I was speaking to your mystery poster friend.

You lost mine your first post when you decided to make this personal and attack me instead of my post, for no real reason at all.

We have a perfect relationship then.

(And it wasn't for no reason.)
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Laodicean » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:29 pm

Image

We reached solid ground, lost, stumbling along like so many shadows or ghosts marching in response to some obscure psychic impulse. We had been through seven days of constant hunger and sickness during the sea crossing, topped by three still more terrible days on land. Exactly 10 days after our departure from Mexico, during the early morning hours of December 5, following a night-long march interrupted by fainting and frequent rest periods, we reached a spot paradoxically known as Alegría de Pío (Rejoicing of the Pious).
— Che Guevara

The only real parallel I can see...between the Free Gaza Flotilla and Cuba...
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Simulist » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:37 pm

UN's Pillay: Gaza blockade illegal, must be lifted

Published: 06.05.10, 13:22 / Israel News

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said on Saturday Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal and should be lifted, and reiterated calls for an investigation into Israel's raid on aid supply ships this week.

"International humanitarian law prohibits starvation of civilians as a method of warfare and ... it is also prohibited to impose collective punishment on civilians," Pillay said. (Reuters)

LINK
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby compared2what? » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:38 pm

American Dream wrote:I don't think that the assumption that the people in the photo above depicts Satmars is necessarily accurate at all.

I think that they may actually be Neturei Karta- not sure...


I didn't make any assumptions. I did a search that turned up that photograph, which is of Satmar Hasidim. Protesting at, IIRC, the UN at some point earlier in the decade. They're massive compared to Neturei Karta. Also, both they and their anti-Zionism have been around for much, much longer. Going back to considerably before there was anything non-theoretical to oppose, to the days when they were still based in then-Hungary-now-Romania, in fact.

But thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Laodicean » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:49 pm

US Navy being sent to Israel

By Laila El-Haddad

06/04/2010

I’m not in the habit of reporting hearsay, but this one comes from the source itself. A confidential source just told me that a US Naval Officer he spoke with told him they just received sudden word today that they (the US Navy or contingents thereof) are being deployed to Israel next week. The timing obviously suggests the deployment is related to the flotilla debacle, but what purpose their deployment serves is anyone’s guess (well certainly not mine, since I’m not a maritime expert). Perhaps deploying off Iran’s coast along with the Israeli nuclear missile subs under the cover of worldwide protest over and distraction by the flotilla?

A colleague offers another possibility:

“Obama has made a deal with Netanyahu that Israel will “ease” its blockade of Gaza on condition that the US monitor Gaza’s coastline and inspect all cargo ships. The object of the exercise here for the US and Israel is to keep Gaza under tight control but defuse the humanitarian issue. Normalize conditions just enough so that they can quiet the international ruckus. It might “work” — from their point of view. Cynical bastards.”


http://www.gazamom.com/2010/06/us-navy- ... to-israel/
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