Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

[Percival]

We reached solid ground, lost, stumbling along like so many shadows or ghosts marching in response to some obscure psychic impulse. We had been through seven days of constant hunger and sickness during the sea crossing, topped by three still more terrible days on land. Exactly 10 days after our departure from Mexico, during the early morning hours of December 5, following a night-long march interrupted by fainting and frequent rest periods, we reached a spot paradoxically known as Alegría de Pío (Rejoicing of the Pious). — Che Guevara

The only real parallel I can see...between the Free Gaza Flotilla and Cuba...

Nobody is comparing the two, obviously they are different on many levels, the comparison is that they were both blockades set up against one nation at war with another and with the intention of limiting weapons from getting in to that nation.


Also, why isnt the left up in arms over the naval blockade and embargo against North Korea, those people there have it A LOT worse than those in the Gaza and the unlike the people of the Gaza the NK didnt even elect their tyrant leader, he doesnt even hold elections, but the whole world has no problem with a naval blockade and embargo against them. Why is that?

I think I know why but it pisses people off when you suggest it. But I say it is because the South Koreans arent Jewish. Yes, at the end of the day a lot of this is simply animosity towards Jews, some, admittedly for good reason, other not so much.

Those who support Hamas have national socialists, fascists and neo nazis on their side so at least they do have some company even if its not company to be proud of or write home about.

What dont some of you understand about "We swear no peace between us and the Jewish Israeli state until ever Jew is killed or run in to the Med Sea"

If someone made such a vow against you wouldnt you do what it takes to prevent them from getting arms and making good on their promise.

Hamas made that vow, the people of Gaza support them. Sorry, but there is a price to pay for that.

[American Dream]

c2w? wrote:

I didn't make any assumptions. I did a search that turned up that photograph, which is of Satmar Hasidim. Protesting at, IIRC, the UN at some point earlier in the decade.

Can you provide a specific citation?

Thanks.

[Laodicean]

Leftist and rightist Israelis clash at Gaza flotilla protest in Tel Aviv

Smoke grenade hurled at left wing protesters from unknown source; demonstrators carry banners saying 'the government is drowning us all.'

By Chaim Levinson

Leftist and rightist demonstrators clashed Saturday night in Tel Aviv as more than 6,000 Israelis gathered to protest the Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship earlier this week, in which nine pro-Palestinian activists were killed.

The protest was originally planned by to mark the anniversary of the Six Day War which broke out 43 years ago today. Among the organizers were left wing parties Meretz, Hadash and Peace Now organization. The demonstrators carried banners saying "The government is drowning us all," "We must stride for peace," and "A right wing government = clear and immediate danger to state security."

As the demonstrators marched from the Rabin Square near the city's municipal building toward the Tel Aviv museum several hundred rightist demonstrators followed the procession. Upon their arrival at their final destination the spirits heated up between the two opposing groups, during which they two sides cursed and shouted at each other.

A smoke grenade was also hurled at the left wing demonstrators from an unknown source.

Police were deployed to keep the two sides apart. Clashes were also reported on the central Ibn Gevirol Street.

Among the leftist demonstrators, hundreds carried Israeli flags to establish that they were not demonstrating against Israel nor questioning the country's existence, but rather protesting the actions executed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing government.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/le ... v-1.294359

Were you there, Percival?

[Percival]

UN's Pillay: Gaza blockade illegal, must be lifted

Published: 06.05.10, 13:22 / Israel News

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said on Saturday Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal and should be lifted, and reiterated calls for an investigation into Israel's raid on aid supply ships this week.

"International humanitarian law prohibits starvation of civilians as a method of warfare and ... it is also prohibited to impose collective punishment on civilians," Pillay said. (Reuters)

LINK

Unless the two sides are AT WAR with eachother. Why hasnt the UN said anything about South Koreas embargo and naval blackade of the North?

This fellow is offering his opinion, international case law says otherwise and that is what matters. I encourage them to take it to the Hague.

[Percival]

I don't think that the assumption that the people in the photo above depicts Satmars is necessarily accurate at all.

I think that they may actually be Neturei Karta- not sure...

I didn't make any assumptions. I did a search that turned up that photograph, which is of Satmar Hasidim. Protesting at, IIRC, the UN at some point earlier in the decade. They're massive compared to Neturei Karta. Also, both they and their anti-Zionism have been around for much, much longer. Going back to considerably before there was anything non-theoretical to oppose, to the days when they were still based in then-Hungary-now-Romania, in fact.

But thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Their bases for this belief is biblical. The OT says, somewhat indirectly, that the Jews shall not return their homeland until the Messiah has arrived. I cant say that I disagree with what they believe although I am not religious, they have no problem living in the region obviously, their issue is that it should not be an official Jewish state until the return of the Messiah.


My point being that this belief of theirs has nothing to do with them not liking or agreeing with Israeli politics of their treatment of those in the Gaza, its a fundamental belief that the state of Israel itself should not exist at this time.

[Percival]

Leftist and rightist Israelis clash at Gaza flotilla protest in Tel Aviv

Smoke grenade hurled at left wing protesters from unknown source; demonstrators carry banners saying 'the government is drowning us all.'

By Chaim Levinson

Leftist and rightist demonstrators clashed Saturday night in Tel Aviv as more than 6,000 Israelis gathered to protest the Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship earlier this week, in which nine pro-Palestinian activists were killed.

The protest was originally planned by to mark the anniversary of the Six Day War which broke out 43 years ago today. Among the organizers were left wing parties Meretz, Hadash and Peace Now organization. The demonstrators carried banners saying "The government is drowning us all," "We must stride for peace," and "A right wing government = clear and immediate danger to state security."

As the demonstrators marched from the Rabin Square near the city's municipal building toward the Tel Aviv museum several hundred rightist demonstrators followed the procession. Upon their arrival at their final destination the spirits heated up between the two opposing groups, during which they two sides cursed and shouted at each other.

A smoke grenade was also hurled at the left wing demonstrators from an unknown source.

Police were deployed to keep the two sides apart. Clashes were also reported on the central Ibn Gevirol Street.

Among the leftist demonstrators, hundreds carried Israeli flags to establish that they were not demonstrating against Israel nor questioning the country's existence, but rather protesting the actions executed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing government.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/le ... v-1.294359

Were you there, Percival?

No but thanks for the link, I heard something about this from a colleague but didnt have a chance to read the news sources about it.

I am in the states now, I only occasionally visit Israel at this time, to be with family, who remain there.

[17breezes]

We reached solid ground, lost, stumbling along like so many shadows or ghosts marching in response to some obscure psychic impulse. We had been through seven days of constant hunger and sickness during the sea crossing, topped by three still more terrible days on land. Exactly 10 days after our departure from Mexico, during the early morning hours of December 5, following a night-long march interrupted by fainting and frequent rest periods, we reached a spot paradoxically known as Alegría de Pío (Rejoicing of the Pious). — Che Guevara

The only real parallel I can see...between the Free Gaza Flotilla and Cuba...

Nobody is comparing the two, obviously they are different on many levels, the comparison is that they were both blockades set up against one nation at war with another and with the intention of limiting weapons from getting in to that nation.


Also, why isnt the left up in arms over the naval blockade and embargo against North Korea, those people there have it A LOT worse than those in the Gaza and the unlike the people of the Gaza the NK didnt even elect their tyrant leader, he doesnt even hold elections, but the whole world has no problem with a naval blockade and embargo against them. Why is that?

I think I know why but it pisses people off when you suggest it. But I say it is because the South Koreans arent Jewish. Yes, at the end of the day a lot of this is simply animosity towards Jews, some, admittedly for good reason, other not so much.

Those who support Hamas have national socialists, fascists and neo nazis on their side so at least they do have some company even if its not company to be proud of or write home about.

What dont some of you understand about "We swear no peace between us and the Jewish Israeli state until ever Jew is killed or run in to the Med Sea"

If someone made such a vow against you wouldnt you do what it takes to prevent them from getting arms and making good on their promise.

Hamas made that vow, the people of Gaza support them. Sorry, but there is a price to pay for that.

A-freaking-men. Course, Israel did a really stupid thing but that doesn't explain the phenomena you have noted. It's a deep hate that has been nourished over the years. Were it not so, we would see more of this uncontrollable rage when others do terrible things. I guess there's not enough rage left after hating Jews otherwise dear old Helen Thomas might have chose her words more carefully. The left and extreme right are full of Helen Thomases.

[Percival]

Just heard this morning thatthe radio communications between the IDF and Flotilla was recorded and this is what was initially said, what a bunch of assholes:

"You are approaching an area which is under a naval blockade," said the radio operator, to which one passenger on the ship replied, "Shut up, go back to Auschwitz."

Another voice then addressed the Navy, saying the ship had permission from the Gaza Port Authority to enter the blockaded area.

"We're helping Arabs go against the US," added another voice. "Don't forget 9/11, guys."


These fuckers were very much likely in league with Hamas, I suspected it all along and this cements it for me. I dont support 9 dead but they provoked this incident.

[Simulist]

Really? Who provided those "radio communications"?

What's the source of this information?

Is it reliable? If so how, and why?

[Percival]

We reached solid ground, lost, stumbling along like so many shadows or ghosts marching in response to some obscure psychic impulse. We had been through seven days of constant hunger and sickness during the sea crossing, topped by three still more terrible days on land. Exactly 10 days after our departure from Mexico, during the early morning hours of December 5, following a night-long march interrupted by fainting and frequent rest periods, we reached a spot paradoxically known as Alegría de Pío (Rejoicing of the Pious). — Che Guevara

The only real parallel I can see...between the Free Gaza Flotilla and Cuba...

Nobody is comparing the two, obviously they are different on many levels, the comparison is that they were both blockades set up against one nation at war with another and with the intention of limiting weapons from getting in to that nation.


Also, why isnt the left up in arms over the naval blockade and embargo against North Korea, those people there have it A LOT worse than those in the Gaza and the unlike the people of the Gaza the NK didnt even elect their tyrant leader, he doesnt even hold elections, but the whole world has no problem with a naval blockade and embargo against them. Why is that?

I think I know why but it pisses people off when you suggest it. But I say it is because the South Koreans arent Jewish. Yes, at the end of the day a lot of this is simply animosity towards Jews, some, admittedly for good reason, other not so much.

Those who support Hamas have national socialists, fascists and neo nazis on their side so at least they do have some company even if its not company to be proud of or write home about.

What dont some of you understand about "We swear no peace between us and the Jewish Israeli state until ever Jew is killed or run in to the Med Sea"

If someone made such a vow against you wouldnt you do what it takes to prevent them from getting arms and making good on their promise.

Hamas made that vow, the people of Gaza support them. Sorry, but there is a price to pay for that.

A-freaking-men. Course, Israel did a really stupid thing but that doesn't explain the phenomena you have noted. It's a deep hate that has been nourished over the years. Were it not so, we would see more of this uncontrollable rage when others do terrible things. I guess there's not enough rage left after hating Jews otherwise dear old Helen Thomas might have chose her words more carefully. The left and extreme right are full of Helen Thomases.

Agreed. I dont like what they did either, those 9 people should not have died, but as I asked before, what is Israel to do when Hamas has vowed not only war against Israel but against every single Jewish person living in the region.

[Simulist]

Course, Israel did a really stupid thing but that doesn't explain the phenomena you have noted. It's a deep hate that has been nourished over the years.

Yeah, starving an entire population of people does have a tendency to provoke rage, even deep hate.

[Percival]

Really? Who provided those "radio communications"?

What's the source of this information?

Is it reliable? If so how, and why?

I have no idea, I am looking in to that as we speak, I heard the recording itself played on the BBC this morning but didnt catch the entirety of it. I would suppose the source is the IDF since they surely record all such communications. I am sure that will make everyone doubt the authenticity of it but surely it would not be easy to manufacture such a recording since such communications can be heard by anyone with a good scanner in the area, I have listened to some IDF communications myself doing such.

I will try and find more information on this and post my findings when I do but at this point I have no reason to doubt what I heard.

[Jeff]

Just heard this morning thatthe radio communications between the IDF and Flotilla was recorded and this is what was initially said, what a bunch of assholes:

Wherever more than 600 are gathered, assholes always seem over-represented. But it's certainly not beyond the means of motivated authorities to doctor an audio tape that was never out of their possession. Not saying that's so, just saying it's possible enough that I'm reserving judgement.

There's also this to consider, from British journalist Yvonne Ridley:

Here is the audio clip, which the Israelis titled “Radio Transmission from Mavi Marmara to Israeli Navy”.

ISRAELI SHIP: “This is the Israeli Navy, you are approaching an area which is under a naval blockade.”

MAN’S VOICE 1: “Shut up, go back to Auschwitz.”

WOMAN’S VOICE: “We have permission from the Gaza Port Authority to enter.”

MAN’S VOICE 2: “We’re helping Arabs go against the U.S., don’t forget 9/11 guy.”

If you want to listen for yourself, here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxY7Q7CvQPQ.

I immediately recognized the voice of the woman, it is that of Huwaida Arraf, a heroic Palestinian who co-founded the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) and is chair of the Free Gaza Movement.

We sailed together on the first Free Gaza Movement boat into Gaza in 2008 and her voice is very distinctive.

So yes, I can confirm that is Huwaida’s voice, but I can also confirm that Huwaida was on board Challenger 1, a much smaller passenger ship in the six-boat flotilla. She was NOT on board the Mavi Marmara.

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=220735

[Simulist]

Really? Who provided those "radio communications"?

What's the source of this information?

Is it reliable? If so how, and why?

I have no idea, I am looking in to that as we speak, I heard the recording itself played on the BBC this morning but didnt catch the entirety of it. I would suppose the source is the IDF since they surely record all such communications. I am sure that will make everyone doubt the authenticity of it but surely it would not be easy to manufacture such a recording since such communications can be heard by anyone with a good scanner in the area, I have listened to some IDF communications myself doing such.

I will try and find more information on this and post my findings when I do but at this point I have no reason to doubt what I heard.

Since the Israeli government — like the American government — continually lies about anything and everything when it perceives its lies to be in its best interests, you have every reason to doubt what you heard.

You just don't.

[Percival]

Course, Israel did a really stupid thing but that doesn't explain the phenomena you have noted. It's a deep hate that has been nourished over the years.

Yeah, starving an entire population of people does have a tendency to provoke rage, even deep hate.

See this is what makes some of you look really silly, when you make comments like this that arent even remotely true it is really hard to take you seriously.

It is well documented and even the UN will admit that Israel delivers 10,000 tons of food water and supplies to the Gaza every week, that is hardly the act of one nation starving the people of another.

The blockade is not designed, in spite of what those on the far left and right want you to believe, to punish the people of the Gaza, it is specifically designed to keep arms from getting in to the hands of Hamas militants.

This whole drama queen act is not helpful at all and totally unproductive to this discussion. (Its not just you either, its most everyone involved in this who says such things, and they are simply wrong.)