Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby crikkett » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:01 pm

Percival wrote:
crikkett wrote:Your re-assertions are contrary to what Alice says.

She lives in the region and speaks the language, Percival. Do you? Alice's story is firsthand. What's your experience?

My experience is having lived in Jerusalem and other areas of Israel for 27 years of my life including all of my youth and young adult and having worked my way through university working as a field reporter for several different Israeli media publications, some assignments which included actually living IN Gaza for a period of time AFTER 2007 when Hamas took control of the area and speaking personally with Hamas leadership and militant soldiers who admitted to me that ultimately they want every Jew gone from the region and that if given the opportunity to make good on that they would do it. I speak the language also, Alice is on the other side of this issue and so her and I wont see eye to eye on anything but I do have equal experience to hers when it comes to the Gaza and Israel specifically, I dont know what her experience is beyond Egypt, which strangely, itself supports Israel over Hamas in this matter, so even her own people, Arabs and Muslims as they are, recognize the menace that Hamas represents not only to Jews and Israel but to the entire region itself.

Alice may have not ever heard anyone express the above sentiment but I am also sure Alice isnt living in the heart of the Gaza, like I did on assignment for a period of 30 days, working directly and side by side, spending all of my days and nights with Hamas leadership and their militant soldiers/follwers. Alice knows what she reads in the media and what her inner circle of friends and colleagues tell her but I have never seen her express that she has been right smack in the middle of this controversy and actually spent time with those who freely and openly admit that they will never accept any sort of peace as long as Jews occupy any part of that entire region known as Israel or Palestine.

I have no intention of getting in to a pissing match with Alice, she has her experiences and I have mine, the difference is I have it from the horses mouth and she seemingly sees it only from a distance ( I assume, perhaps I am wrong.)


Thanks for this, Percival. I wasn't trying to set you up against Alice either, but trying to get an idea of your point of view.

In catching up to the end of this thread I read more of what you've written about your experience:

Percival wrote:I had hoped, growing up in Israel and knowing many of those in my own generation who felt that this was all ridiculous and just allowing everyone to live together in peace would be the answer, that my generation would be the one to end it, but sadly it is the older generation that still rules the state and until that changes there will likely be no change, if ever.


I'm sorry you've lost hope.

Percival wrote:I cannot accept anyone saying that Israel is willfully and knowingly starving those people because I personally know better, that is not an opinion it is a statement of fact from my own experience and seen with my own eyes. I have seen these deliveries and I have seen them rejected.


You've personally seen aid shipments to Gaza turned back. Can you tell me more about this? How many trucks, when did it happen? Where?

When I search Google News I get an article from Haaretz dated June 2, where Hamas spokesman Ahmed al-Kurd said that material from Israel would be refused until all activists detained in the flotilla raid were released. The flotilla was delivering 10,000 tons of material. It's curious that you've repeated that figure several times.

Percival wrote:I am telling you as a matter of record that Israel does indeed deliver 10,000 tons of food water and supplies to the Gaza EVERY WEEK. That is hardly starving them. What IS starving them is when HAMAS REJECTS THOSE DELIVERIES.


What I don't see in Google News is a report of weekly shipments of any size, or their refusal. Can you help me with this?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Peregrine » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:56 pm

Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.

....But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice.

Khalid Mish'al is head of the political bureau of Hamas, upon Hamas' election in free and democratic, internationally-supervised elections, in 2006


I am curious to know what you think of this staement, Percy, as this doesn't sound to me like this man is advocating for the extermination of the Israelis at all, yet you state that Hamas' main objective is to exterminate every Jew from the region.

Percival wrote:My own experience as an Israeli has resigned me to believe that kind of trust will never be restored, I dont like saying that because a very optimistic kind of guy but even the youngest generation that I see there on my occasional visits to see family is already expressing a fear and animosity towards the people of Gaza and specifically Hamas.


This saddens me, but I do not live nor have never been to the region. It seems that this Khalid Mish'al holds out more hope than you seem to. All violence does is perpetuate more violence.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby American Dream » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:14 pm

[Links embedded in original]

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010- ... israel-do/

But What Could Israel Do?
.
By Stephen R. Shalom, Israeli Occupation Archive – 5 June 2010


The New York Times front-paged a story on the conflicting video images of the assault on the Gaza flotilla, concluding that neither side’s case was proven because the videos lacked the necessary context. What came just before or just after?

Normally, neutrality in the face of contradictory and incomplete information is an admirable trait. But consider the circumstances. One side, the Israeli attackers, surely have video of the entire encounter, but have shown only selected snippets, carefully avoiding the period immediately before the troops landed on board the Mavi Marmara. The other side, those trying to break the blockade, had their cellphones and cameras confiscated (“captured” is how the IDF put it), one of their websites hacked, and limited coverage of events. Despite this asymmetry that ought to make us extremely skeptical of the Israeli version, the clips do seem to show that the Israeli forces fired before they landed — and you can bet the IDF won’t be releasing their complete video for analysis. And as more and more passenger testimony becomes available, and as autopsy results show the victims shot between the eyes at point blank range, the Israeli version is more and more dubious.

But the Times is right that the competing videos don’t provide context — but the context is not just what happened in the few minutes before or after, or even including the probable Israeli attempts to sabotage the ships before they left port. Rather, what’s relevant is the larger political context of the nature of the blockade and of Israel’s ongoing occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people.

Israeli apologists like to claim that no one is starving because of the blockade. This is true of most prisons, but in any event the suffering caused by the blockade is horrendous. There is widespread malnutrition. The agricultural sector is suffocating under the blockade. The number of refugees living in abject poverty in Gaza has tripled since the blockade began. More than 60 per cent of households are currently “food insecure.” For many Gazans, electricity is cut 8-12 hours daily, compared to 6-8 hours prior to January 2010. As the UN office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs put it,

“At the heart of the crisis is the degradation in the living conditions of the population, caused by the erosion of livelihoods and the gradual decline in the state of infrastructure, and the quality of vital services in the areas of health, water and sanitation, and education.”

Israel coyly whines that if only the activists had delivered their humanitarian supplies to the Israeli port of Ashdod, Israeli would have been happy to pass on all the acceptable items to Gaza. But that of course is precisely the problem: for three years Israeli authorities had determined that basic humanitarian supplies were unacceptable. So, for example, on June 1, the World Health Organization renewed its call “to allow for the unimpeded access into the Gaza Strip of life-saving medical supplies, including equipment and medicines, as well as more effective movement of people in and out of the territory for medical training and the repair of devices needed to deliver appropriate healthcare.” The necessary equipment was available — but blocked by Israeli officials from being permitted to enter Gaza.

But what else could Israel do besides the blockade in order to protect its security, asks New York public radio host Brian Lehrer? After all, he says, Hamas is launching rockets from Gaza into Israel.

This view of the situation, however, is the same erroneous view put forward by the Israeli government and its apologists during Operation Cast Lead, Israel’s massive assault on Gaza in December 2008-January 2009.

At that time, Israel and company argued that the murderous attack was necessary because of the rockets that were being fired from Gaza. What they neglected to mention, however, was that starting in mid-June 2008 there had been a truce — a lull — during which time there were zero rockets fired by Hamas and close to zero fired by other Palestinian groups. In the words of an Israeli think-tank connected to the Israeli security establishment, “… Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire and its operatives were not involved in rocket attacks. At the same time, the movement tried to enforce the terms of the arrangement on the other terrorist organizations and to prevent them from violating it.” The truce held until November 4, 2008 when Israel, not Hamas, broke it. Moreover, the Gazans understood the truce to include a lifting of the suffocating Israeli blockade. Israel did loosen the blockade somewhat at the beginning of the lull, but by October deliveries into Gaza were below the inadequate pre-lull level of March 2008. (In March, humanitarian aid groups had warned of a “humanitarian implosion.”) And exports from Gaza — upon which the economy depended — were almost totally prohibited.

The blockade — enforced by Israel and Egypt — was widely denounced by human rights groups (e.g., Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the Israeli organizations Gisha and B’Tselem) UN officials (e.g. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, General Assembly President Miguel D’Escoto, the Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs John Holmes, the Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, Robert Serry, Special Rapporteurs John Dugard and Richard Falk), and in two presidential statements of the European Union as collective punishment — because its purpose was to change Hamas’s behavior by punishing the one and a half million civilians of Gaza, the majority of them children. Israeli officials openly boasted that this was their intent, and the fact that exports are prohibited and such things as coriander and notebooks are banned from importation proves that restricting the flow of weapons was not the motivation for the blockade.

After Israel broke the truce on November 4, rocket fire from Gaza and Israeli military strikes were frequent, and the blockade was tightened even further. When the lull was formally due to expire in mid-December, Hamas made its position clear; as Khalid Meshal put it, “When this broken truce neared its end, we expressed our readiness for a new comprehensive truce in return for lifting the blockade.” But Israel wasn’t interested and instead launched Operation Cast Lead, killing hundreds of innocent civilians and destroying much of what was left of Gaza’s economic infrastructure. International, Israeli, and Palestinian human rights groups as well as the Goldstone Report documented that the economic destruction was intentional. “‘Hamas’s civilian infrastructure is a very, very sensitive target,” pointed out Matti Steinberg, a former top adviser to Israel’s domestic security service. “If you want to put pressure on them, this is how.”

Israel’s assault on Gaza was wildly disproportionate, but as the UN’s Special Rapporteur Richard Falk persuasively argued, disproportionality is a secondary consideration. More significant is the fact that the Israeli use of force was not “legally justified at all” given the “circumstances and diplomatic alternatives available.”

On January 8, 2009, the UN Security Council adopted — with 14 affirmative votes and only the United States abstaining — Resolution 1860 calling for an immediate ceasefire, but also for “the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment.”

Israel and Egypt, however, maintained the blockade, which was now doubly illegal: first because it constituted collective punishment and second because it violated Resolution 1860.

Following the ceasefire, Hamas again expressed its willingness to establish a truce so long as the blockade was lifted. Similar offers were repeated frequently, for example, in September 2009, but Israel wasn’t interested. And so the blockade continued, with its devastating human consequences.

So the simplest answer to Brian Lehrer’s question of what Israel could do to maintain its security in place of a blockade is that it is precisely the blockade that causes the threats to Israeli security. Without the blockade, there would be no obstacle to negotiating a long-term ceasefire, which would mean the end to rocket fire and other threats to Israel’s legitimate security interests.

But beyond a ceasefire, Israel could also negotiate a broader settlement to the Israel-Palestine conflict. There are two obstacles to such a settlement. One of these is not Hamas, for it has long indicated — most recently on May 30 — its willingness to accept a settlement along the lines of the Arab Peace Initiative. Hamas says it would not itself recognize Israel, but it also says recognition is not something that political parties do in any case; it’s what states do. Israel-apologists like to quote from some of the intransigence and repulsive anti-Semitism from Hamas’s 1988 Charter, but all serious observers — such as studies written for U.S. Institute of Peace, the Army War College, or the International Crisis Group — have documented that the organization has moved far from its 1988 positions.

So, no, the obstacle to a settlement is not Hamas. The first obstacle is Israel, which seems committed to denying the Palestinians an opportunity for a dignified independent existence. Of course, this can be seen most clearly in the statements of rightwing leaders like Prime Minister Netanyahu and his openly racist foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman. But the coalition government ruling Israel today includes the Labor Party, with Ehud Barak holding the Defense portfolio. And the Labor party veteran who serves as President, Shimon Peres, too takes positions — like insisting on Israel’s right to build new settlements anywhere in Jerusalem — that are guaranteed to thwart any chance of peace.

The second obstacle to peace is the United States. Washington has for many years given Israel the material support to enable its atrocities — Israel is the number one recipient of US aid in the world; number two is the Egyptian dictatorship, the other country responsible for the Gaza blockade. But more important than economic and military aid is that the United States has provided the diplomatic cover for Israel’s oppression of Palestinians. The Bush administration did this with gusto, but for all his talk of change, Obama has done the same. (Indeed, if you compare their UN General Assembly voting records, Obama’s administration has been if anything a little worse than Bush on Israel-Palestine.) By blocking action on the Goldstone report, Obama essentially gave Israel permission to commit war crimes. By preventing anything but the mildest criticism of Israel in the Security Council in response to Israel’s criminal assault on the Gaza flotilla, Obama has assured that atrocities will continue. By itself publicly offering only regret but not condemnation for the assault, the U.S. government shares Israel’s responsibility. And by opposing an international inquiry into the attack on the aid flotilla — as opposed to letting the perpetrator investigate itself — Obama has granted impunity for murder.

The blockade must be lifted immediately and the occupation ended. And that will require ending the U.S. support that makes these horrors possible.


Stephen R. Shalom teaches political science at William Paterson University in NJ. He is a member of the IOA Advisory Board.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby AlicetheKurious » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:42 pm

Percival wrote:...Alice is on the other side of this issue and so her and I wont see eye to eye on anything but I do have equal experience to hers when it comes to the Gaza and Israel specifically, I dont know what her experience is beyond Egypt, which strangely, itself supports Israel over Hamas in this matter, so even her own people, Arabs and Muslims are they are, recognize the menace that Hamas represents not only to Jews and Israel but to the entire region itself.

Alice may have not ever heard anyone express the above sentiment but I am also sure Alice isnt living in the heart of the Gaza, like I did on assignment for a period of 30 days, working directly and side by side, spending all of my days and nights with Hamas leadership and their militant soldiers/follwers.


Mine trumps yours, I bet. I lived for many years in Gaza during which I had torrid affairs with a number of Hamas' top leaders, and we spent intimate hours in the rubble of their bombed-out home whispering our deepest secrets into each other's ears in the afterglow of love against the backdrop of Israeli missile-fire and the screams of the dying and wounded. We hid breathlessly together from the occupation army and giggled like small children when they missed us. I participated in top secret strategy planning sessions with Hamas commanders and trained in guerrilla warfare in the refugee camps of Gaza and learned what nobody else knows about the men of Hamas. Their mothers taught me how to make maqlooba and nabulsi konafa as I cuddled their baby cousins in my lap and their uncles sang songs about Palestine and played the 'oud. So there. Hah!

Percival wrote:I speak the language also


Ana la asaddaq innak tehkee arabi. Fi ashia keteer inta asbatt innak kazzab, wa shwaya ghaby kaman, alashan ma akna'tesh had be akazeebak wa kalamak al faregh, walaken bete'eed wa te'eed nafsel kalam al abeet wa nefs al akazeeb.

Al mashroo' al sahyuni sa yanhar, be eradet rabbena wa be eradet ahl al dameer fil alam kollo.

Translate this, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

I have never seen her express that she has been right smack in the middle of this controversy and actually spent time with those who freely and openly admit that they will never accept any sort of peace as long as Jews occupy any part of that entire region known as Israel or Palestine.


If by "Jew" you mean Jewish colonists who have no legal claim to the stolen Palestinian property and land on which they claim for themselves, and if by "occupy" you mean in violation of international law and Geneva Conventions, then I in fact agree with them. If by "they will never accept any sort of peace" you mean peace without justice and a recognition of their human and legal rights, then I certainly respect that and also agree with them. As even your intimate confidants in Hamas would tell you if they existed, nobody objects to Jews in Palestine, only to thieves and oppressors, regardless of their religious affiliation.

Percival wrote:Because like everyone else in the region they see the shells flying at all times of day and night, coming seemingly out of nowhere and landing in the middle of settlements, neighborhoods, shapping malls etc, they also see the suicide bombers on buses, they see their little playmate friends blown up and killed, there one day gone the next ALL because Hamas continues to shell Israel territory randomnly without notice for no seeming reason other than to do it.


See, oltelek innak kazzab, wa alla rassak batt'ha, kaman. It is not the Israeli children who see their little playmate friends blown up and killed, or their mothers shot in cold blood before their eyes, or their limbs blown off and ambulance drivers killed by snipers while trying to reach them. It's those other ones. At least, according to international human rights organizations and the United Nations and the Red Cross whose testimony is perhaps are not as credible or reliable as your own.

Percival wrote:I dont know what her experience is beyond Egypt, which strangely, itself supports Israel over Hamas in this matter, so even her own people, Arabs and Muslims as they are, recognize the menace that Hamas represents not only to Jews and Israel but to the entire region itself.


First, the regime of Egypt hardly speak for Egyptians, since they are only accountable to those who keep them in power against the people's will, as their reward for kissing zionist ass. Second, what a racist piece of work you are! Are you incapable of seeing beyond narrow tribal categories? "My people" are scattered all over the world and what unifies us is not religion or ethnicity or language, but our deep conviction that justice, equality, freedom and human dignity are indivisible and that they are the birthright of every person regardless of any other consideration. My people are legion, from all walks of life and all countries and all religions and they speak all languages. But Hosni Mubarak, and you, are not among them.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Peregrine » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:55 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote: I lived for many years in Gaza during which I had torrid affairs with a number of Hamas' top leaders, and we spent intimate hours in the rubble of their bombed-out home whispering our deepest secrets into each other's ears in the afterglow of love against the backdrop of Israeli missile-fire and the screams of the dying and wounded. We hid breathlessly together from the occupation army and giggled like small children when they missed us. I participated in top secret strategy planning sessions with Hamas commanders and trained in guerrilla warfare in the refugee camps of Gaza and learned what nobody else knows about the men of Hamas. Their mothers taught me how to make maqlooba and nabulsi konafa as I cuddled their baby cousins in my lap and their uncles sang songs about Palestine and played the 'oud.


Holy heavens, lady, wow. You should write a book. Perhaps you have? I would love to read it.... :lovehearts:
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby American Dream » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:01 pm

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010- ... s-hutzpah/

Moshe Machover: Colonizers’ Hutzpah

By Moshe Machover, MRZine – 3 June 2010

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/ma ... 30610.html


I am grateful to MRZine for inviting me to comment on “Israel in the current conjuncture, in the wake of the attack on the Freedom Flotilla and international reaction to it”. But in truth I have very little to add to the excellent comments and analyses that have been presented in various left-wing publications, both in print and online.

Perhaps I can just make an observation regarding the significance of Israel’s brazen attempt to depict its latest aggression against a humanitarian mission as “self-defence”, and the murder of peace activists by its commandos as a legitimate response to the “lynching” of these heavily armed innocents who were set upon by a “mob of terrorists”.

This astounding piece of hutzpah is actually quite instructive, inasmuch as it typifies and constitutes a reductio ad absurdum of the age-old method of hasbarah, the propaganda machine of the Zionist project and its Israeli settler state.

It amounts to this: protected by a Western empire, you colonize a part of the world, ethnically cleanse as many of its indigenous people as you can, and confine the remainder to stew in a series of besieged reservations, which are in effect open prisons. And when the victims try to resist, you depict them as “savages” and “terrorists”; and present yourself, the colonizer, as acting in “self-defence”. Similarly, when humanitarian sympathizers of the colonized try to provide them with some help.

By the way, if all this sounds vaguely familiar to US readers, it is no accident. Colonizers often act and speak like this. Israel’s assault on Gaza in 2008–9 is a 21st century echo of Wounded Knee, magnified by a modern war machine and destructive technology.

Let me add one more observation, which as far as I know has not been made so far. It concerns an issue which is tangential to the Mavi Marmara incident, but in my view is also very instructive. This issue is the purpose of NATO. Sailing in the high seas, the Mavi Marmara was a piece of sovereign Turkish territory. It was subjected to hostile military invasion by Israel. If NATO were indeed an organization for mutual defence, as its propagandists claim, then surely it would have sprung unequivocally to take the side of its attacked member, Turkey. It would have taken all necessary steps against the aggressor, Israel. But don’t hold your breath. Because, as we on the left have always said, NATO is in reality not about mutual defence but an instrument of US imperial hegemony. Beyond uttering a few worthless platitudes, it will not side with its Turkish member against Israel, the favourite client of the US boss.


Moshé Machover is a mathematician, philosopher, and socialist. He was a founder of Matzpen, the Israeli Socialist Organization.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:10 pm

Peregrine wrote:
AlicetheKurious wrote: I lived for many years in Gaza during which I had torrid affairs with a number of Hamas' top leaders, and we spent intimate hours in the rubble of their bombed-out home whispering our deepest secrets into each other's ears in the afterglow of love against the backdrop of Israeli missile-fire and the screams of the dying and wounded. We hid breathlessly together from the occupation army and giggled like small children when they missed us. I participated in top secret strategy planning sessions with Hamas commanders and trained in guerrilla warfare in the refugee camps of Gaza and learned what nobody else knows about the men of Hamas. Their mothers taught me how to make maqlooba and nabulsi konafa as I cuddled their baby cousins in my lap and their uncles sang songs about Palestine and played the 'oud.


Holy heavens, lady, wow. You should write a book. Perhaps you have? I would love to read it.... :lovehearts:

Alice has quite the imagination and there is no denying a certain way with words and command of the language that few of us can claim.

But really, I wish she would get serious and tell the truth because if she claims to be intimate with Hamas, and I think she was just kidding, then surely she must know of their very open and freely spoken vow that there will never be peace in the middle east until every Jew is gone from the land.


I am shocked that she continues to deny this, they freely and openly speak of this continuously, its part of their national dialogue.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby crikkett » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:26 pm

Percival wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
AlicetheKurious wrote: I lived for many years in Gaza during which I had torrid affairs with a number of Hamas' top leaders, and we spent intimate hours in the rubble of their bombed-out home whispering our deepest secrets into each other's ears in the afterglow of love against the backdrop of Israeli missile-fire and the screams of the dying and wounded. We hid breathlessly together from the occupation army and giggled like small children when they missed us. I participated in top secret strategy planning sessions with Hamas commanders and trained in guerrilla warfare in the refugee camps of Gaza and learned what nobody else knows about the men of Hamas. Their mothers taught me how to make maqlooba and nabulsi konafa as I cuddled their baby cousins in my lap and their uncles sang songs about Palestine and played the 'oud.


Holy heavens, lady, wow. You should write a book. Perhaps you have? I would love to read it.... :lovehearts:

Alice has quite the imagination and there is no denying a certain way with words and command of the language that few of us can claim.

But really, I wish she would get serious and tell the truth because if she claims to be intimate with Hamas, and I think she was just kidding, then surely she must know of their very open and freely spoken vow that there will never be peace in the middle east until every Jew is gone from the land.

I am shocked that she continues to deny this, they freely and openly speak of this continuously, its part of their national dialogue.


My friend, you've lost both the pissing match and my interest.

Try to have something close to a nice day, and may Peace catch up to you when you're not looking and give you a big wet smack on the cheek (that's a kiss by the way).
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby AlicetheKurious » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:55 pm

What I wrote phonetically in simple Arabic (much simpler than your imaginary friends from Hamas would need to use to discuss even slightly complex issues with you):

Ana la asaddaq innak tehkee arabi. Fi ashia keteer inta asbatt innak kazzab, wa shwaya ghaby kaman, alashan ma akna'tesh had be akazeebak wa kalamak al faregh, walaken bete'eed wa te'eed nafsel kalam al abeet wa nefs al akazeeb.

Al mashroo' al sahyuni sa yanhar, be eradet rabbena wa be eradet ahl al dameer fil alam kollo.


I do not believe that you speak Arabic. In many things you have proven that you are a liar, and a bit stupid, too, because you have convinced no one with your lies and your empty talk, but keep repeating and repeating the same idiotic words and lies.

The zionist project will collapse, with God's will and with the will of people of conscience in all the world.


Later, I wrote:

See, oltelek innak kazzab, wa alla rassak batt'ha, kaman.


See, I told you that you're a liar, and a hypocrite as well.

Pwnd.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:41 pm

I dont speak Arabic and never claimed to, please show me the post where I said I did, I am Jewish not arabic nor muslim, I speak Hebrew.


I also would like to know why 90% of you on here who claim to be anti zionist or whatever you call yourself MUST seemingly use every single post you make to insult, call names and personally attack? What the hell is the matter with you people, throwing around insults like murderer, racists, you name it, all of you are guilty of it but there isnt a single instance where I have personally attacked anyone during this discussion nor have I called any one names or insulted anyone, you may think you have the upper hand on this but you better think again because a lot of very well respected posters are seeing exactly what I see, nothing but ad hom attacks, personal attacks, name calling and insults, the behavior of children not adults.


I had an interpreter when I spoke with the Hamas subjects that were part of my assignment, I think that would be obvious to anyone paying attention since I have said countless times I am an Israeli and a Jew, therefore I would have no real reason to speak arabic.

I am not here to "Pwnd" anyone whatever the hell that means nor win any pissing matches, sounds sort of childish to me, but you carry on with your juvenile way of handling this very important and serious issue and I will continue to look for others, and there are indeed a few here, who wish to pay this discussion and those who are part of it, the respect it and they deserve.

I will no longer address or answer any question from anyone who cant act like an adult and must instead resort to pettiness to get their point across.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Peregrine » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:51 pm

Percival wrote: I will no longer address or answer any question from anyone who cant act like an adult and must instead resort to pettiness to get their point across.


Well I feel I've been pretty respectful. I would really like to hear your input to my query at the top of the page, about Khalid Mish'al.

And I don't believe Alice is fabricating a story to get her point accross, & nether do I believe you are fabricating your story about your experiences.
~don't let your mouth write a cheque your ass can't cash~
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Elvis » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:19 pm

Percival wrote:I had an interpreter when I spoke with the Hamas subjects that were part of my assignment



Maybe an interpreter from MEMRI?

:lol2:


No but really, I'm curious who the interpreter was, where they were from, etc.
Thanks to mistranslation, every day in the MSM and in everyday conversations I still hear people repeating that Ahmadinejad said Israel "should be wiped off the map." And he never said that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ah ... ranslation
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby nathan28 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:22 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:
Percival wrote:
Who and when and where?



Congo since 1998 5.4 million


This is a stupid road to go down. "The same result still obtains."

Rwanda was .9 million in three months, making it 2-3x the rate of murders of Jews by Nazis (1.5x if you count non-Jews killed)
King Leopold's "War", c. 5-15 million c. 1900-1908
US Indian exterminations, c. 20 million
Japanese campaigns in China, outside estimates >25 million.
Yahwist campaigns in Hebrew Bible, c. 2.4 million (adjusted to world population inflation, c. 110 million)

etc.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2008/ ... l_0201.jpg


Meanwhile, check out these pictures of Gaza residents celebrating International Red Paint Day!


Image
Preventative collective punishment stops the possibility of another potential terrorist precrime!


Image
Gazans participating in an International Red Paint Day parade.


Image
Preparing to clean up after International Red Paint Day.
„MAN MUSS BEFUERCHTEN, DASS DAS GANZE IN GOTTES HAND IST"

THE JEERLEADER
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Simulist » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:44 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:Pwnd.

And nicely done, too.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:16 pm

"nathan28"


my point exactly

the word holocaust was invented in the 13th century

it does not belong exclusively to one race

I do not deny your holocaust

but do not act like it's your word alone



Main Entry: ho·lo·caust
Pronunciation: \ˈhō-lə-ˌkȯst, ˈhä- also -ˌkäst or ˈhȯ-lə-kȯst\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from neuter of holokaustos burnt whole, from hol- + kaustos burnt, from kaiein to burn — more at caustic
Date: 13th century
1 : a sacrifice consumed by fire
2 : a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire <a nuclear holocaust>
3 a often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II —usually used with the b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : genocid
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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