The Town the Torturers Came From

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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby American Dream » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:59 pm

Given that in the United States we have what is mostly a "poverty draft" and given that only a minority of recruits are groomed to be hardcore torturers or assassins, I don't think it's smart to demonize the troops, Rather we should support them- to resist, to speak out, to quit, to oppose the war.

Military resistance was an incredibly strategic part of the movement against the Vietnam War, as depicted in this great movie which I saw just last week, and it made a very big impression:

Sir! No Sir!

The Suppressed Story of The GI Movement to end the war in Viet Nam

Video


A "must-see" documentary which seeks to return to the historical record the pivotal story of the GI anti-war movement during the Vietnam War.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e13036.htm


...
Last edited by American Dream on Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby barracuda » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:01 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:I believe in redemption.


I can get behind that. I'm not certain I can even classify myself as a good and decent person, for that matter, but I do hold out hope.

American Dream wrote:Given that we have what is mostly a "poverty draft" and given that only a minority of recruits are groomed to be hardcore torturers or assassins, I don't think it's smart to demonize the troops, Rather we should support them- to resist, to speak out, to quit, to oppose the war.


Oh, yeah, I support the troops in their quest to stop being troops.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby Elvis » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:32 pm

barracuda wrote:Let's face it - that's pretty much why anyone joins the military. They may say they want to help, or to serve their country, or to defend the homeland, or even because they needed a job, or whatever. But the reality is that everyone knows the guys in charge are gonna give you a gun and teach you to maim and kill, then take you somewhere to do just that.


Not always true, especially (as I think you qualified) before 9/11.
Just before 9/11, a friend of mine, a sweet, gentle young woman I'd worked with, joined the National Guard---all she wanted was her "electrical ticket"---the certification that would let her get an electrical contractor's license. Maybe she wasn't the brightest bulb in the house but she had a knack for wiring things and wanted to be an independent electrician; she was especially attracted to lighting for theater.

She never expected to go to war. Weekends of training, some cash, technical education and the civilian "future" they say that will bring...what could be so bad?

I tried to dissuade her, but since no one anticipated any big wars invasions, I tried to respect her decision and didn't press too hard. I figured she'd get in, get her "ticket," and get out. "Stop-loss" was not in anyone's vocabulary.

She ended up in Iraq. I don't know what happened there because she wouldn't talk about it.

We fell out of contact and last I heard from her she'd re-enlisted and went back to Iraq. They got her.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby barracuda » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:55 am

Okay, everybody knows some innocent soul who thought that joining "the service" would be an easier road to their simple dream than working your way through the free junior college in their town, or some other equally available option. So they signed up, went into basic training and started learning the intricacies of how to field strip, reassemble and fire an M-60, which is right about the point at which my "support-o-meter" bottoms out.

But for each of those stories, I can tell you a hundred about the "tough kid", or the school troublemaker, or the bully, or the blind follower, or the kid who was tired of being pushed around, or the guys who just wanted to be part of the biggest gang on the planet, or the guy who wanted to carry a gun and tell people what to do. You's ask 'em why they wanted to join and they'd say, "oh, I donno, I always thought it'd be cool to work on a submarine", or drive a tank, or fly jet aircraft, or they needed some structure, whatever. But what they really wanted to do was fight, and fight on the side that was gonna win. People who don't like fighting usually don't join up. That's been my experience. People find what they need there, and it becomes a home. And they kill people. Innocent people. Millions of them.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby Simulist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:04 am

I tend to agree with that. And although I feel compassion for those who were duped into joining up "to protect us from the terrorists," I absolutely cannot imagine how such people can rightly be considered "our heroes."

The very thought of enabling this fatal lie disgusts me.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby American Dream » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:24 am

http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib_pr ... journalist

The Abu Ghraib guard who thought he loved me

The notorious prison scarred him. His wife left him. But I did something no one else had: I listened

BY JUSTINE SHARROCK



It was 2:30 a.m. on July 4 when I received the text: "I fallen in love with u from just talking 2 u. What do u think justine. My wife has already left me."

I didn't recognize the phone number, but I knew the area code, 301: Cumberland, Md., aka Torturetown, USA. The area had gained notoriety as the home to many of the soldiers depicted in the infamous Abu Ghraib prison abuse photos. I had visited Cumberland numerous times over the previous two years researching a book I was writing about our torture program's effects on ordinary Americans. I had listened to people describe their deep level of betrayal by the military as well as those who said they wished we had done even more to the prisoners.

Looking through my list of contacts I figured out that the text was from a soldier -- let's call him Frankie -- a 34-year-old father of three. I had met Frankie at his home exactly one year prior. His small raised-ranch house was surrounded by similar ones, separated by narrow yards filled with lawn ornaments -- frog statues and mini-windmills. Inside, it was crammed with evidence of dedicated parenting -- cheerleading uniforms on hangers, children's toys piled up on the edges of the living room, and photos of beaming kids plastered on the fridge. We sat at his kitchen table, drinking water out of McDonald's souvenir glasses. The lights were mostly off, the television tuned in to the game with the sound off; his wife had taken his three young kids to the mall for the day so they wouldn't overhear what he had to say.

No longer in the National Guard, he had let his beer gut grow out but still kept his head closely shaved. Frankie was back working in a cafeteria where his father had before him. He considered applying the skills he'd learned as a Military Police officer at a position in one of the many local prisons, as had several other members of his unit. He said the night shifts would be too much, but one couldn't help wondering whether time at Abu Ghraib had been enough prison work for one lifetime.

Frankie was one of the guards assigned to take over the blocks at the hard site when the other soldiers were court-martialed. He was told there would be no photos of naked detainees stacked into pyramids but was trained how to short-shackle prisoners to bed frames, tie sandbags over their heads and keep them awake for days. In Frankie's view, they "were fairly decent to the prisoners, but obviously you have ill feelings toward them to start with."

It had been four years since he'd come home, but he said it was the first time he had really spoken about the prison. When he first came home, people asked him questions. When he was grabbing a beer at the local bar, people inevitably asked, "Oh, come on, you must have known the abuse was happening. Did you see the pictures? Did you get in on the action?

"I just kind of swept it under the rug or joked about it," Frankie told me. "You kind of push it away as best you can." But that didn't always work.

Frankie's stepfather told me that soldiers like Frankie needed to be left alone and treated like nothing had happened. His wife was "more or less supportive" and occasionally he told her stuff -- stuff he thought he probably shouldn't -- but only when he got "drunk and stupid."

"Honestly, she gets more upset that I was drinking than about what I told her," he said with a laugh, adding that he usually didn't even fully remember the conversations.

I had placed my tape recorder prominently between us on the kitchen table. It made it easier to listen intently without having to take notes. But it was also to remind him that this interview was on the record and part of my job.

He was understandably cagey when he told me about what happened in the prison. He ran through the list of abusive techniques he used on detainees, but haltingly. "I don't want to even be associated with it," he said. "There might be that shadow, like when a girl cries rape, and even if they prove the guy innocent, it is always there in the back of people's minds for the rest of his life."

It seemed even harder for him to explain what was happening inside his head. He told me he no longer constantly thought about Abu Ghraib the way he did when he first got back. He no longer jumped whenever a car backfired, but he was still on edge, still had nightmares and bouts of depression.

Compared to other soldiers whom I had spent weeks and months with, I barely knew Frankie. We only met twice, for perhaps a total of four hours, first at his home and later at the fluorescent-lighted cafeteria where he worked. Yet, those two conversations had provided him with something he hadn't been able to get anywhere else. I wished desperately that he'd had those conversations with his wife, instead.

When I started reporting the book, I never imagined that tough soldiers would tell me what happened in those prisons, let alone how it made them feel. But since then, soldiers have told me that it's easier for them to talk to someone like me than anyone else. Over Coca-Colas at a strip-mall Chili's, one soldier admitted for the first time that he had tried to kill himself in Iraq. Another confessed to having lashed an Abu Ghraib prisoner repeatedly over his third-degree burns. I heard their voices slow down and saw their eyes glaze slightly as they told me that they had come to realize ugly things about themselves. I learned how to listen for the things they weren't saying and how to offer them the space to fill in those gaps.

I wanted to know everything I could about these soldiers. I wanted to get inside their minds and understand the world from their perspective. I hung on their every word, relistened to the recorded conversations later, paying attention for places where I had failed to pick up a nuance or implication that needed more explanation, and coming back with more questions. It's unusual to have someone hang on your every word. For soldiers who are used to being brushed aside, it can be unheard of.

Friends can't understand what they are going through, and other soldiers will just call them pussies. They fear that V.A. psychiatrists, who pump them full of pills, are only concerned with getting them well enough to be sent back to the war zone. Some of the wives have even told me that they would rather not know the stories that their husbands have told me. Telling family members, especially wives, means tarnishing yourself in the eyes of someone you have to face every morning at breakfast.

I made a conscientious effort not to send any mixed messages to the soldiers. I bought a new wardrobe of baggy clothing, asked after their wives, kept things professional -- and placed that tape recorder out in plain sight. But I learned that it's not a low neckline that's seductive -- it's someone's desire to listen.

I feel a certain sense of responsibility for taking on these soldiers' stories. I know the risks of reliving those experiences, especially for veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. I have learned how easy it can be for subjects to misinterpret that strange and unique intimacy, one of detachment and utter bonding, which is unlike any other relationship. In some ways we were complete strangers, but in others, I knew them better than anyone else.

It's impossible to spend so much time with someone without establishing some kind of friendship. I worry about crossing the line between journalist and friend. Journalists are criticized for interviewing subjects, siphoning off their experiences and emotions for a story, and then dropping them. But doing the opposite can mean entering confusing territory. When a soldier drunk-dialed me and told me he had given up all hope of fixing his life and was just going to redeploy, was it unethical when I tried to discourage him? When a soldier tells you he is suicidal, can you urge him to see a therapist? When another texts you telling you he has left his wife, how do you respond?

Over that past year, Frankie had sent me texts wishing me a happy New Year, merry Christmas -- messages I had assumed were just text blasts. Other times he casually asked me about the status of the book. I thought little about the messages; my responses were short and polite. Just a week before, on June 20, he had written, "Let me know if u come back 2 cumberland 4 ur book. Would love 2 talk 2 u again."

That night of July 4, looking back at some of the texts, and remembering others, I saw how much I had misunderstood. I had been naive to think that that tape recorder could be a symbolic barrier between interviewer and subject. I had relied on that small electronic device to be a shield. But it was also an indicator that what he had to say was important, and that he mattered, something rare in a veteran's life.

The tragedy of this story is how desperate soldiers are for someone with whom they can share their experiences and their suffering. I had been so critical of the people in these soldiers' lives who weren't willing or able to listen to them. But when I received that text from Frankie, it was I who didn't want to respond or hear about his feelings. When it got truly personal, it turned out I was no better.

The next morning, I received a text apologizing. It was an accident, he said. I figured it was his attempt to save face. Wanting to quickly put it behind us and avoid embarrassing him, I wrote back saying that I understood -- people mistakenly send texts all the time.

Then, just like so many people do when they feel uncomfortable seeing a vulnerable side of a veteran, I said nothing. I tried to tell myself that having that tape recorder let me off the hook. But it didn't. Even when he texted a month later, I ignored his cry for help and never talked to him again.



Justine Sharrock is the author of "Tortured: When Good Soldiers Do Bad Things" (Wiley, 2010). Her article "Am I a Torturer?" was part of a Mother Jones series nominated for a 2008 National Magazine Award. Her work has also appeared in Alternet, the Utne Reader, San Francisco magazine and the San Francisco Chronicle.
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby blanc » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:32 am

The responsibility for events is with high command. If they do not ensure that there are clear and appropriate guidelines for treating detainees and that they are followed, they are to blame - each one in the chain up to and including the president.
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby brekin » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:42 am

But I learned that it's not a low neckline that's seductive -- it's someone's desire to listen.


True dat.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby bks » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:58 am

wombaticus wrote:

The more disturbing point is how easy it is to make good and decent people commit horrible acts. I don't see myself as any different than my friends who are in the military: I just read too much to be recruitable.


Reading the obedience literature has convinced me of this as well. Being aware how obedience operates is not the same thing as having the internal resources to resist authority at the critical moment.

One should always be resisting, really. Make it a habit.
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby Nordic » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:13 pm

My son is 7. I'm let him be exposed to the world, but I constantly coach in him how that world is manipulating him. He's aware of it already. He's still utterly fascinated by it. And sometimes it gets into his head and he has trouble getting it out. But then he tells me and we talk about it. The latest is breakfast cereal, it's really disturbing how the ads for breakfast cereal can get into a 7 year old's head. I guess they've had generations of perfecting this now.

But I've told him from the getgo about the military and how they try to trick you into joining and thinking it's something it's not.

I don't want to lay it on him too much about death and destruction, I shield him from most of that so far because he's very sensitive and I don't want to mess him up.

I let him know his grandpa and one of his uncles were in the army and fought in Vietnam, so he's aware of that .... but I don't think he really has a concept of what a war is yet ...

Just rambling here .... my point being I think you have to get to the young men before THEY do. But how many do that?
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby crikkett » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:25 pm

barracuda wrote:Let's face it - that's pretty much why anyone joins the military. They may say they want to help, or to serve their country, or to defend the homeland, or even because they needed a job, or whatever. But the reality is that everyone knows the guys in charge are gonna give you a gun and teach you to maim and kill, then take you somewhere to do just that. It's not complicated.


'cuda, I joined the Navy back in Reagan's day because I needed to get the hell out of my dead-end town, because I refused to allow my parents to dictate what I was going to study and what college I would attend, and because I secretly wanted to be sure that I was on the side of the people with rations and shelters when we were bombed into the dark ages by the Soviets, which to me and my high school pals seemed inevitable.

But back then girls weren't allowed to fight. Futhermore, nobody in the school I trained at was interested in fighting either. So real motivations are somewhat different than what you think. It's complicated.
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby barracuda » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:13 pm

For women to walk willingly into a situation in which it is estimated that 20-30,000 sexual assaults occur per year, and you are far more likely to be raped by your fellow soldiers than struck by an enemy bullet, I sort of assume there must be reasons that are extremely complicated, having to do with escape from bad situations such as you've described. But each of those assaults on a soldier is also committed by a soldier, so...
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby crikkett » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:05 pm

barracuda wrote:For women to walk willingly into a situation in which it is estimated that 20-30,000 sexual assaults occur per year, and you are far more likely to be raped by your fellow soldiers than struck by an enemy bullet, I sort of assume there must be reasons that are extremely complicated, having to do with escape from bad situations such as you've described. But each of those assaults on a soldier is also committed by a soldier, so...


I was raped, twice, as a matter of fact. A third attempt was unsuccessful and ultimately made me feel much better about leaving. I felt all the horrible consequences for a while and then healed.

However, I also read a statistic sometime back in the early 90s when I was dealing with all that, which claimed that about half of all (American) women are raped in their lifetimes, and a lot of those occurred in their college years: rapes committed on a college kid by a college kid, for whatever that's worth. Far too many civilian women I've befriended, of all walks of life, have told me about their rapes for me to think I'm anything special.

The positive aspects of my military career far outweighed the negatives. Rapes aside, even the negatives turned out to be invaluable experience. I wouldn't trade it in.

I would NEVER recommend military service to a young person now. I would plead and beg on my knees with all the passion I could muster for as long as it took to talk sense into whatever idiot would even consider the option. It's a bad scene all around, especially at the military Academies. I understand that it's only gotten worse since I bailed out.
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby brekin » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:37 pm

crikket wrote:

I was raped, twice, as a matter of fact. A third attempt was unsuccessful and ultimately made me feel much better about leaving. I felt all the horrible consequences for a while and then healed.

However, I also read a statistic sometime back in the early 90s when I was dealing with all that, which claimed that about half of all (American) women are raped in their lifetimes, and a lot of those occurred in their college years: rapes committed on a college kid by a college kid, for whatever that's worth. Far too many civilian women I've befriended, of all walks of life, have told me about their rapes for me to think I'm anything special.

The positive aspects of my military career far outweighed the negatives. Rapes aside, even the negatives turned out to be invaluable experience. I wouldn't trade it in.

I would NEVER recommend military service to a young person now. I would plead and beg on my knees with all the passion I could muster for as long as it took to talk sense into whatever idiot would even consider the option. It's a bad scene all around, especially at the military Academies. I understand that it's only gotten worse since I bailed out.


Thanks for sharing your story.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: The Town the Torturers Came From

Postby Nordic » Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:57 pm

My wife tutors kids, and a year ago or so she managed to convince a young man to not join the Navy.

He was pretty determined to join, and she managed to talk him out of it.

I was very pleased about that.
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