PW-- 'who is we and whoever has made that last assertion on this board?'--not sure who you're referring to or which 'last assertion' you mean...no 'we's' in the part of my post that you quoted, are there? And we're in agreement about the term "Monarch" being likely disinfo--though back when I found out about the programs, that was the name given to me by other survivors to describe the sort I was used in. I sometimes slip even now and use it, but try to correct/clarify as quickly as I can. I am curious though about the possibility that I may have been one of the victims who was fed the term. A couple of years ago, I found a wooden puzzle box (with which I was completely unfamiliar) hidden in my closet. Once I figured out how to open it, I found a bunch of costume jewelry inside, most of which featured butterflies. A number of them--but not all--were orange and black monarch butterflies done in enamel over metal. They had to have belonged to an alter, because they aren't mine. No way to tell when they were collected, unfortunately. Also, for decades now, each time I've painted a self-portrait, there's been a butterfly in it somewhere, too--but generally pale yellow ones, not orange/black. That may be coincidence--lots of women love butterflies--or it might be an indication of a programming symbol surfacing.
Since both O'Brien and Ford were under the influence of Mark Phillips, and they're the highest profile survivors of mind control programs, they're the ones around whom charges of disinfo swirl. I've read quite a bit of speculation online about their having been fed disinformation and as such being poisoned sources, all of whose material is now considered to be in doubt. Which I guess is a natural reaction, but in each woman's autobiography I found details that I've read nowhere else that match things that I personally remember. So that's why I used the baby/bathwater reference--while I realize that I too might be remembering things that have been fed to me, they
feel very real and possibly will turn out to be quite important in piecing together my own history. At least one dates from childhood. I've checked a couple out to the best of my ability and found that at the time that I remember them happening, I did talk (guardedly) to close friends about the incidents.
I've also had the experience of having had the part about my having been owned/bought/sold kind of dismissed--or perhaps 'glossed over' is a better description of their reaction--by people who I would have expected to have accepted it, due to their knowledge of the programs. In each case, the problem
seemed to be the similarity of my experiences to those of O'Brien and Ford when it came to forced prostitution. Perhaps I just read their discomfort with the sexual nature of the exploitation as disbelief, but I don't think so. I think they wanted to set those particular experiences aside from what happened to me as a child. To me, this would be a mistake, since most of those owners seemed aware of my MPD and apparently exploited it fully knowingly. Not sure exactly what their connection was to the program(s) in which I grew up, but I once watched as a box that I think contained my codes was handed over at one sale that took place when I was in my late 20's.
For some of us, IOW, abuse and exploitation continued long beyond childhood, via people who were more or less witting about what we were. Whether the name of the program was Monarch or something entirely different, my own memories support the reality of human trafficking for the purposes of sex and courier work, using highly dissociative, programmed young adults. And I'm beginning to worry that we'll end up marginalized, due to two of the most prominent of us having been possibly mucked with by a clever disinfo op and due also to most victims' ignorance of programming and shame at admitting to what they took part in during that period of their lives.
As for who made the assertion that there were "false victims" or "fake victims" here, it was IIRC a troll and it was posted in a thread about the board's crash. Tonight I'm having no luck finding the post using the Search function and, though I was sure I read it in the 'Sorry about all that' thread, perhaps there was another thread on the same subject or the post was erased. I'm sorry I didn't bookmark or save it, but others here must have seen it. Perhaps someone with a better memory can help? Invalidation is always unpleasant, but this time it reminded me that this thread had gotten off-track and I decided to see if I could get the discussion going again.
The wish to discuss is surely not 'crying victim' and I was
really sorry to see that you'd taken it that way. Believe me, I have no 'lack of other resources' either in the form of survivor groups or of therapists. But I do think that the human trafficking aspect of the mind control programs is
under-discussed and my hope was to see if others here thought so too, not to upset other survivors in any way...in fact, I'd hoped to see you post about the subject, just not in this way
My concern about this aspect of the abuse of highly dissociative trauma survivors is sincere and is not a cry for personal help. It's an appeal for people to look for the pattern of programming there as well as in survivors the better-known earlier abuses, like MKULTRA and RA. And to not write us off as being more deluded, mistaken or contaminated with disinformation than any survivor of programming is likely to be. I just saw a lack and hoped to start people talking again.
LilyPat
Indeed! I wasn't referring to you LilyPat with that statement and I am sorry if it sounded that way. There was a poster here who started a thread in reaction to me and he called me a bully. I thought you were referencing that situation. I should have clarified that first.