Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtichoke

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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtichoke

Postby American Dream » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:26 pm

Iamwhoiam wrote:
12 years for act without defense
By ROBERT GAVIN Staff Writer
Published: 03:58 p.m., Tuesday, August 10, 2010

ALBANY -- Disgraced former state parole board member George "Chris" Ortloff was sentenced Tuesday to more than 12 years in federal prison for trying to arrange the rape of two preteen girls at a Colonie motel through their "mother," an undercover State Police investigator.



Yeesh, that was a hell of a thing to place right in the middle of a very powerful exchange between survivors of extreme abuse!

Whatever were you thinking when you did that, Iamwhoiam?

If you don't just delete the whole article from this thread, I think, at the very minimum you should go back in Edit, and place at the top a warning in large capital letters something like this:

TRIGGER WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC DEPICTIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST CHILDREN


But can't you just go back and remove that article from this thread completely?
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtichoke

Postby Jeff » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:02 pm

IMO, since the very first post of this thread begins with WARNING: MAY BE TRIGGERING, I think it can be assumed that an advisory re disturbing content applies to the entire thread. I'll defer to survivors on this if they're of a different opinion. But let's not let it sidetrack the thread.
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtichoke

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:28 pm

AD, you sure have a way with words. What was I thinking? I was thinking that one of the bad guys got caught and that some might like to hear that. Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote:

"I do not know much about possible 'triggers', so please be forewarned that the following article relating the sentencing of one who long ago acted out his desires, and surely would have done so again, had he not been caught by undercover police may in and of itself be a trigger."

I've edited it now, made it large and red.

There is no graphic depiction of sexual violence against children anywhere in any of the articles posted or linked to, so I have no idea what on earth you're talking about, especially when considering the text of the OP, which contains very graphic depictions of abuse of several children, though you find no fault with that posting.

Sorry to have offended anyone. Like I said, I thought it would be good to hear that there's one less monster on the loose.
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtichoke

Postby American Dream » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:46 pm

Iamwhoiam, I think the article is a legitimate story, but given the context- a very powerful and personal exchange regarding extreme abuse issues between survivors- it seemed like a really odd location to place the article. However, I'm not one of the people most directly affected by these issues, so I'll leave it to them to comment on what are reasonable parameters for this issue...
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtichoke

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:57 pm

I've sent a pm to one of the survivors. If they or any other survivor wishes me to delete my entry, I will. Again, the context is not with regard to the conversational postings, but to the OP and that an offensive monster will be locked away probably for the rest of his life. And that's a good thing.
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtichoke

Postby psynapz » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:54 pm

American Dream wrote:I think the article is a legitimate story, but given the context- a very powerful and personal exchange regarding extreme abuse issues between survivors- it seemed like a really odd location to place the article. However, I'm not one of the people most directly affected by these issues, so I'll leave it to them to comment on what are reasonable parameters for this issue...

:ohno:

Truly, the best ironies are those which appear to have been unconsciously crafted.
“blunting the idealism of youth is a national security project” - Hugh Manatee Wins
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtichoke

Postby Project Willow » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:46 pm

AD, as well intentioned as your actions may be, your antennae are off.

Iamwhomiam, please keep contributing.
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtichoke

Postby American Dream » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:55 am

Thanks for weighing in, Willow.

My sincere apologies to all if I was overly sensitive or otherwise inappropriate regarding this subject.

Now: back to the topic(s) at hand!


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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtic

Postby LilyPatToo » Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:00 pm

I decided to resurrect this thread, since I think it's an important one, rather than begin a new one. In our effort to discern truth from disinfo regarding the testimony of survivors like Cathy O'Brien and Sue Ford, I'm worried that the baby is in danger of sailing out the window with the bathwater. Because the name(s) of programs are likely to have been invented after the fact does not mean that the programs themselves did not exist or that they might not have current versions running.

If I were the only survivor I knew of who ended up sold into a form of partly-overt/partly-covert prostitution, I might be able to put it down to nothing more than seriously bad luck. But I've been contacted by other women who survived what looks like organized abuse in childhood that seamlessly segued into sexual exploitation in young adulthood. One (like me) found herself interacting with Mafia members for a number of years when she was in her 20's. Another (like me) has had continuing indications of occasional intelligence agency involvement right up until recently.

Both of these women were absolutely terrified to be speaking about what happened to them, even to another survivor. So I'm wondering how many other trafficked women fall into our odd little category of having apparently had formal mind control programming used to keep us ignorant and silent about exploitation as adults? What if I'd never found out about the programs? My guess is that I'd have gone on hiding what little I remembered about those parts of my past, most likely for the rest of my life. And since both women have dropped out of touch with me (one at the instigation of a handler-like super-controlling husband), I'm not optimistic about the chances of this kind of continuing meddling ever coming to light in any effective way.

It's so easy to terrorize a traumatized witness into silence, especially when most of society is so fucking ignorant of this whole mess. Even here at RI where there's much more information available, survivors can still be misunderstood and choose to fall silent again just to escape what feels like bullying. We're so easy to discredit and dismiss as "false victims" as a troll did recently on the thread about the board's crash. Each time it happens, I want the person to clarify and explain to me what line of reasoning led them to dismiss lifetimes of evidence of interference by organizations. Is it just that so much information is impossible to furnish to them in a message board format? How many survivors need to write autobiographies before the pattern of abuse becomes clear?

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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtic

Postby Project Willow » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:14 pm

LilyPatToo wrote:I decided to resurrect this thread, since I think it's an important one, rather than begin a new one. In our effort to discern truth from disinfo regarding the testimony of survivors like Cathy O'Brien and Sue Ford, I'm worried that the baby is in danger of sailing out the window with the bathwater. Because the name(s) of programs are likely to have been invented after the fact does not mean that the programs themselves did not exist or that they might not have current versions running.


Please be specific, who is we and whoever has made that last assertion on this board? Links might be helpful. I am sure you understand why I raised the issue. Given more recent evidence, I am fairly certain that the name monarch is yet another perp-created manipulation of survivors to make us look incredible in the public sphere. If you think it's counter productive to raise the issue at this point, then I certainly respect your opinion, but I'd like to understand why.

LilyPatToo wrote:If I were the only survivor I knew of who ended up sold into a form of partly-overt/partly-covert prostitution, I might be able to put it down to nothing more than seriously bad luck. But I've been contacted by other women who survived what looks like organized abuse in childhood that seamlessly segued into sexual exploitation in young adulthood. One (like me) found herself interacting with Mafia members for a number of years when she was in her 20's. Another (like me) has had continuing indications of occasional intelligence agency involvement right up until recently.

Both of these women were absolutely terrified to be speaking about what happened to them, even to another survivor. So I'm wondering how many other trafficked women fall into our odd little category of having apparently had formal mind control programming used to keep us ignorant and silent about exploitation as adults? What if I'd never found out about the programs? My guess is that I'd have gone on hiding what little I remembered about those parts of my past, most likely for the rest of my life. And since both women have dropped out of touch with me (one at the instigation of a handler-like super-controlling husband), I'm not optimistic about the chances of this kind of continuing meddling ever coming to light in any effective way.


I haven't seen anyone challenge the reality of mind control in this forum in a very long time. I also know more vics. who are still under control than I know ones who are getting free and/or speaking out. It's very sad and I have no idea how to change that until there is enough acceptance of mind control practices within our institutions and amongst the general populace.

LilyPatToo wrote:It's so easy to terrorize a traumatized witness into silence, especially when most of society is so fucking ignorant of this whole mess. Even here at RI where there's much more information available, survivors can still be misunderstood and choose to fall silent again just to escape what feels like bullying. We're so easy to discredit and dismiss as "false victims" as a troll did recently on the thread about the board's crash. Each time it happens, I want the person to clarify and explain to me what line of reasoning led them to dismiss lifetimes of evidence of interference by organizations. Is it just that so much information is impossible to furnish to them in a message board format? How many survivors need to write autobiographies before the pattern of abuse becomes clear?

LilyPat


I don't see the usefulness of reviewing an incident in general terms like this, but I'll say straight out, I don't buy all this crying victim.
(On edit, I am referring here to another situation of a banned poster and not apparently to what LilyPat was referring to.)
This is not a nanny board. For ten years I ran a private email support group for people with DID. In that venue we absolutely worked every tiny issue out to the nth degree and made sure everyone's feelings were recognized. This is not that place, it is an anonymous public board that is constantly being gamed. If someone is assertive enough to post here, especially given the troll activity, I would assume they wield enough self agency to seek out and utilize other resources, such as survivor centered boards, email support groups, therapy, etc. The troll activity is a far more likely silencing and discrediting force. Anyone who has come under fire from obsessed and prolific trolls has the right to call shenanigans when they pop up here.
Last edited by Project Willow on Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtic

Postby robotilt » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm

I am not very well informed on this topic. But I have a question that relates to someone I know.

I recently became acquainted with a woman who is now in her late 40s who grew up as a child of missionaries in Papua New Guinea. Much of the time she was not with her parents, but rather in the care of a series of children's homes. She has referred to having had "dissociative episodes" in her past. She has also expressed not wanting to open up "the can of worms" related to her childhood. I have not pried. It's none of my business, but I am curious.

I know that anytime children are in institutional care, they are ripe for exploitation and abuse by whoever. So I almost take that as a given. However, I was wondering if anyone reading this has ever heard specifically of missionary kids (coincidentally they refer to each other as MK's) as being the target of trauma based mind control experiments or programming.

Thanks
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtic

Postby LilyPatToo » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:43 am

PW-- 'who is we and whoever has made that last assertion on this board?'--not sure who you're referring to or which 'last assertion' you mean...no 'we's' in the part of my post that you quoted, are there? And we're in agreement about the term "Monarch" being likely disinfo--though back when I found out about the programs, that was the name given to me by other survivors to describe the sort I was used in. I sometimes slip even now and use it, but try to correct/clarify as quickly as I can. I am curious though about the possibility that I may have been one of the victims who was fed the term. A couple of years ago, I found a wooden puzzle box (with which I was completely unfamiliar) hidden in my closet. Once I figured out how to open it, I found a bunch of costume jewelry inside, most of which featured butterflies. A number of them--but not all--were orange and black monarch butterflies done in enamel over metal. They had to have belonged to an alter, because they aren't mine. No way to tell when they were collected, unfortunately. Also, for decades now, each time I've painted a self-portrait, there's been a butterfly in it somewhere, too--but generally pale yellow ones, not orange/black. That may be coincidence--lots of women love butterflies--or it might be an indication of a programming symbol surfacing.

Since both O'Brien and Ford were under the influence of Mark Phillips, and they're the highest profile survivors of mind control programs, they're the ones around whom charges of disinfo swirl. I've read quite a bit of speculation online about their having been fed disinformation and as such being poisoned sources, all of whose material is now considered to be in doubt. Which I guess is a natural reaction, but in each woman's autobiography I found details that I've read nowhere else that match things that I personally remember. So that's why I used the baby/bathwater reference--while I realize that I too might be remembering things that have been fed to me, they feel very real and possibly will turn out to be quite important in piecing together my own history. At least one dates from childhood. I've checked a couple out to the best of my ability and found that at the time that I remember them happening, I did talk (guardedly) to close friends about the incidents.

I've also had the experience of having had the part about my having been owned/bought/sold kind of dismissed--or perhaps 'glossed over' is a better description of their reaction--by people who I would have expected to have accepted it, due to their knowledge of the programs. In each case, the problem seemed to be the similarity of my experiences to those of O'Brien and Ford when it came to forced prostitution. Perhaps I just read their discomfort with the sexual nature of the exploitation as disbelief, but I don't think so. I think they wanted to set those particular experiences aside from what happened to me as a child. To me, this would be a mistake, since most of those owners seemed aware of my MPD and apparently exploited it fully knowingly. Not sure exactly what their connection was to the program(s) in which I grew up, but I once watched as a box that I think contained my codes was handed over at one sale that took place when I was in my late 20's.

For some of us, IOW, abuse and exploitation continued long beyond childhood, via people who were more or less witting about what we were. Whether the name of the program was Monarch or something entirely different, my own memories support the reality of human trafficking for the purposes of sex and courier work, using highly dissociative, programmed young adults. And I'm beginning to worry that we'll end up marginalized, due to two of the most prominent of us having been possibly mucked with by a clever disinfo op and due also to most victims' ignorance of programming and shame at admitting to what they took part in during that period of their lives.

As for who made the assertion that there were "false victims" or "fake victims" here, it was IIRC a troll and it was posted in a thread about the board's crash. Tonight I'm having no luck finding the post using the Search function and, though I was sure I read it in the 'Sorry about all that' thread, perhaps there was another thread on the same subject or the post was erased. I'm sorry I didn't bookmark or save it, but others here must have seen it. Perhaps someone with a better memory can help? Invalidation is always unpleasant, but this time it reminded me that this thread had gotten off-track and I decided to see if I could get the discussion going again.

The wish to discuss is surely not 'crying victim' and I was really sorry to see that you'd taken it that way. Believe me, I have no 'lack of other resources' either in the form of survivor groups or of therapists. But I do think that the human trafficking aspect of the mind control programs is under-discussed and my hope was to see if others here thought so too, not to upset other survivors in any way...in fact, I'd hoped to see you post about the subject, just not in this way :( My concern about this aspect of the abuse of highly dissociative trauma survivors is sincere and is not a cry for personal help. It's an appeal for people to look for the pattern of programming there as well as in survivors the better-known earlier abuses, like MKULTRA and RA. And to not write us off as being more deluded, mistaken or contaminated with disinformation than any survivor of programming is likely to be. I just saw a lack and hoped to start people talking again.

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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtic

Postby LilyPatToo » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:58 am

robotilt wrote:I am not very well informed on this topic. But I have a question that relates to someone I know.

I recently became acquainted with a woman who is now in her late 40s who grew up as a child of missionaries in Papua New Guinea. Much of the time she was not with her parents, but rather in the care of a series of children's homes. She has referred to having had "dissociative episodes" in her past. She has also expressed not wanting to open up "the can of worms" related to her childhood. I have not pried. It's none of my business, but I am curious.

I know that anytime children are in institutional care, they are ripe for exploitation and abuse by whoever. So I almost take that as a given. However, I was wondering if anyone reading this has ever heard specifically of missionary kids (coincidentally they refer to each other as MK's) as being the target of trauma based mind control experiments or programming.

Thanks


Hi, robotilt--and welcome. I wish I had information for you, but I've searched my files and not found anything relevant. Hopefully someone else here will have something, since what she's told you so far does have that familiar ring to it. OTOH, her abuse may have been non-systematized. Unless the places where she was raised turn out to have histories of it or she tells you more, it may be impossible to know for sure. I'm fairly certain we have folks here with more information than I do on religion-linked forms of mind control. I'm not religious, but it seems likely to me that anyone who devotes their lives to missionary work--especially to the extent of institutionalizing their children in order to do so--is verging on fanaticism, which is fertile ground for justifying forms of mind control (though they probably call it something else). I hope this poor woman you know eventually seeks help of the sort that can safely open that sort of can of worms and then deal with it constructively. Living with too many forgotten secrets can do a lot of cumulative damage--I was well into my 50's when I finally faced up to mine, so I know whereof I speak.

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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtic

Postby Project Willow » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:32 am

LilyPatToo wrote:The wish to discuss is surely not 'crying victim' and I was really sorry to see that you'd taken it that way. Believe me, I have no 'lack of other resources' either in the form of survivor groups or of therapists. But I do think that the human trafficking aspect of the mind control programs is under-discussed and my hope was to see if others here thought so too, not to upset other survivors in any way...in fact, I'd hoped to see you post about the subject, just not in this way :( My concern about this aspect of the abuse of highly dissociative trauma survivors is sincere and is not a cry for personal help. It's an appeal for people to look for the pattern of programming there as well as in survivors the better-known earlier abuses, like MKULTRA and RA. And to not write us off as being more deluded, mistaken or contaminated with disinformation than any survivor of programming is likely to be. I just saw a lack and hoped to start people talking again.
LilyPat


:shock: Indeed! I wasn't referring to you LilyPat with that statement and I am sorry if it sounded that way. There was a poster here who started a thread in reaction to me and he called me a bully. I thought you were referencing that situation. I should have clarified that first.

On your other points, I just want to say I am going to avoid discussing either O'brien or Ford directly. I don't doubt that they're survivors but other than that I know nothing about the details of their individual cases and I have no way to know if or how they were influenced or not. I too have read parts of Ford's experience that are similar to my own, but I think it better, for myself anyway at this time, to let those cases be and simply not comment.

As for use into adulthood, I just take it as a given, otherwise why expend all those resources? I always thought the most powerful parts of your story, well I don't want to break any confidences, but I hope you are able to publish it in some form one day, because the reality of your experience is difficult to deny once its told as you remember it.
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Re: Monarch or Not Children Were Abused in MKULTRA / MKArtic

Postby Project Willow » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:43 pm

robotilt wrote:I am not very well informed on this topic. But I have a question that relates to someone I know.

I recently became acquainted with a woman who is now in her late 40s who grew up as a child of missionaries in Papua New Guinea. Much of the time she was not with her parents, but rather in the care of a series of children's homes. She has referred to having had "dissociative episodes" in her past. She has also expressed not wanting to open up "the can of worms" related to her childhood. I have not pried. It's none of my business, but I am curious.

I know that anytime children are in institutional care, they are ripe for exploitation and abuse by whoever. So I almost take that as a given. However, I was wondering if anyone reading this has ever heard specifically of missionary kids (coincidentally they refer to each other as MK's) as being the target of trauma based mind control experiments or programming.

Thanks


Hi robotilt.
I am sorry, I also don't have anything in my files specific to Papua New Guinea. I did a bit of searching but just found general references to Anglican church scandals. Sounds like she feels comfortable with you. Good luck to you and your friend.
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