Speaking of which:
AlicetheKurious wrote:See? I can say exactly what I mean. If you really disagree, why don't you tell me where I'm wrong? To make it simple, here is a summary:
1) Rabbi Yosef's racist characterizations are not exceptional among Israel's political, military and religious leaders past and present; he is exceptional in terms of his stellar religious qualifications that make him a widely-recognized authority on halacha and Judaism in general;
2) Rabbi Yosef is an influential political figure in Israel and remains so, despite, or more likely because of, his views;
3) Rabbi Yosef's attitude toward non-Jews is not exceptional nor particularly shocking within Israel, even among ordinary Jewish citizens, still less within the army and the Jewish colonists who enforce and expand the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories;
4) Rabbi Yosef's beliefs are highly consistent with the actual treatment of non-Jews in the Jewish state, which include nearly 50% Palestinians out of the total population in the territories ruled by the Jewish state, of which nearly 4 million people are denied even citizenship, let alone civil rights in their own homeland; this does not take into account the millions more who remain stateless outside the borders ruled by Israel after their violent dispossession and expulsion by the Jewish state.
5) Rabbi Yosef's stated characterization of the relationship between Jews and non-Jews is remarkably consistent with the pattern of Israel's financial, military and political dependence on the exhausted United States donkey for the zionist state's booming economic prosperity, its status as a super-militarized regional bully and its immunity from justice for its war crimes and other violations of international law as it continues to steal what belongs to others. As he so pithily put it, in his very own words, "Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat."
Do you disagree with any of my assertions? Yes or no?
Yes.
And also "No," in a way. But just to stick to the 'Yes," wrt points 1 through 3:
Nor are Rabbi Yosef's racist characterizations typical among Israel's political, military and religious leaders past and present, though. Even among the racist ones. Which is what you're suggesting.
And which I do disagree with, because (a) it's wrong, he's in a category so small he typifies nothing and nobody outside of it; and (b) you obstruct rather than facilitate an informed understanding of what those racist characterizations therefore mean in context -- ie, within Israel -- by first conflating the beliefs of a very small minority with every racist characterization of any kind ever made by any of Israel's political, military and religious leaders at any point in time or history, and then implicitly attributing the resulting state of undifferentiated and extreme racism to all of Israel's political, military and religious leaders, without qualification.
And since there are significant differences among those leaders, past and present, that's just not helpful. In fact, I'd say that it's of more than casual utility even to their political opponents not only to be aware that there are some, but to know in some detail what they are.
So fwiw, just for starters, Rabbi Yosef is (or was) a Peres supporter and such a die-hard opponent of Ariel Sharon that he pulled the Shas out of the Knesset during his two most recent terms. Despicable as they all might be, there are three distinct ideologies there, not one. And the racist characterizations of Rabbi Yosef have an ideological basis that neither Peres nor Sharon share.
As to his stellar religious credentials and towering influence: At the risk of repeating myself, the man is the leader of a minority religious sect that has some political clout but not all that much. He is by no means in a position to bring large numbers of Orthodox into the Zionist fold. On the contrary, he's been at daggers drawn with the far more powerful Ashkenazi Haredi leadership in Israel on points of both political and religious dogma for decades.
He does appear to be a very widely respected Halachic authority, and also to merit that respect in scholarly terms. Although I'm shocked to learn that he doesn't recognize the Ari as a final authority, that's practically dissident thought, as I understand it. But whatever. My point is that the most respected Halachic authority on earth is only influential if you're habitually subject to the judicial authority of the Beth Din. Which not enough people are for that to make him influential on a geopolitical or national level. Or for that matter, even in every Rabbinical Court, necessarily. There's quite a bit of room for disagreement on points of Jewish law, historically and in the present, to put it mildly.
In all events: Your assertions are highly misleading, at best. Because the fact is that his views are very exceptional. And although they're certainly also generally congruent with the views of other extreme racists within Israel and elsewhere, you're not saying anything much more elaborate than that racists are racist by highlighting that. Unless the point you're trying to make is that Israeli racism is in some way unique from the comparable racism of numerous other religious, national and ethnic groups the whole world over. In which case, you've failed to make it.
Quite apart from which, not all Israeli political, military and religious leaders are now and have always been extreme racists in the sense that you're suggesting. That Israel does now and has in the past discriminated against Palestinians by slaughtering and oppressing them is not something I dispute, as you know. But for much more complex reasons than extreme racism, and in numerous cases, not for reasons that even include racism, per se. And even were it otherwise, it wouldn't make Rabbi Yosef's views any less arcane than they are. Which is very. And there's really nothing I can do about that. They are exceptional. And they're neither meaningfully representative nor at all influential outside of a very limited sphere, at either a political or a religious leadership level. Sorry. But that's just how things be.
And, let's see....Well, since, as I already stated, as far as I can see there's nothing to support your characterization of the ordinary Israeli citizen's extreme racism that wouldn't also support applying the same characterization to the average American citizen or the average Egyptian citizen, I don't think that there's anything else in your first three assertions that's validly enough argued for me to dispute or affirm it.
Moving right along to point 4, therefore: Yes, I suppose that they are. But there's a great big huge world of difference between "consistent with" and "indicative of." Because, you know, correlation does not indicate causation. And if what you're saying is that the consistency to which you're pointing has led you or should lead anyone else to conclude that the primary motivation for the founding of Israel and all the hell that preceded and followed it was and is the inherently extreme racism of its founders, leaders and citizens -- Hey. I strongly disagree.
And that's because it makes a vile caricature out of the history of the modern Middle East to exclude 99.9 percent of it, in case you need a reason why.
As to point 5, you're extapolating analogies Rabbi Yosef's statements that are so massively disproportionate to it that, again, I don't really see anything substantial enough to agree or disagree with. I mean, exactly how could what he said be "remarkably consistent' with your description of "the pattern of Israel's financial, military and political dependence on the exhausted United States donkey for the zionist state's booming economic prosperity" in any way at all, other than that you chose to echo it rhetorically? Stop talking nonsense, please.
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Rabbi Yosef is obviously a political player and his remarks are obviously abhorrent, I don't say otherwise. But I could, with equal reason, say the exact same thing of John Hagee.
It's just flat-out not any more factually accurate to hang an entire national agenda on the former than it is the latter, and you've neither presented a scrap of evidence validly suggesting that it is nor accounted for your dismissal of all the evidence that suggests it isn't. Unless you think that all Jews are as categorically undifferentiated as Rabbi Yosef thinks all gentiles are, which I presume you do not, I see no reason whatsoever to even try, really. He's not the average, and nor is he the aspirational. So why waste your time?
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You know, without RI, I would never have had any idea that the world in general didn't have the slightest idea that any of this stuff was in the picture. As a matter of fact, it took me a very long even to perceive that they didn't. For example, had Wombaticus Rex not expressed surprise at the mention of it, it honestly and sincerely would never even have crossed my mind that everyone on earth didn't know that the Arab-Israeli conflict was primarily a cold-war affair initially. (I mean "initially, subsequent to the foundation of Israel," obviously). Or that it's presently the continuation of one under other auspices. Same as every other war on the planet earth in which the United States has had a rooting interest since either V-E Day or V-J Day, depending on locale. And as despicable as all of them, if you ask me.
Though each is despicable in its own way, of course. And I'm certainly not suggesting that having cold-war foundations in any way shifts or alleviates whatever burden of guilt that should rightly be borne by any party to any of the numerous conflicts that have been built on them, I should hasten to add. Far from it. in fact.
- c2w
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
