Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:47 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:There's another old saying, "Where God has his church the Devil will have his chapel." Oooh. Evidence of satan worship in the Church!


I've got more evidence than that of devil worship in the church. Behold! The North Door!

Devil's doors are structural features found in the north wall of some medieval and older churches in the United Kingdom... They have their origins in the early Christian era, when pre-Christian worship was still popular, and were often merely symbolic structures—although they were sometimes used as genuine entrances...

Churches were... built on the site of former pagan or other pre-Christian places of worship. Such places were still considered sacred by their former worshippers, who would often continue to visit them. A doorway would often be inserted in the "heathen" north side of the church to allow them to enter and worship on the site. Because of the association of that side with the Devil, the name "Devil's door" became established.

A later, and more common, purpose ... was to allow the Devil to escape from the church. Most of the doors that remain have been bricked up—reputedly to prevent the Devil re-entering.


But if they bricked up his only means of escape, that means he's trapped inside. The De'il's in the Kirk!

I'm a Catholic too, and was never molested to my knowledge. I quite like the priests I've known over the years, mainly because a lot of them were just like me - lonely drunks, good for nothing but talking and preaching at others, while subsisting as lazy, ungrateful parasites on their host communities. :lol:

I don't see anything wrong with what Sinead has said. She's Irish, and in Ireland the Church and the State were one, and all the standard abuses that come along automatically with such a political set-up occurred. No one is going to die or be imprisoned because she might have got a date or a quote a bit wrong in a statement. Many have died and been imprisoned (have killed themselves, in despair, and been imprisoned in bodies they no longer trust) because of what the Pope got wrong, and keeps getting wrong, deliberately, and of set purpose.
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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby slimmouse » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:54 pm

Its really quite simple, when you have a logical chew on it.

If the Catholic church, along with its leadership are such the bastions of society they claim to be, they wouldnt have the slightest hesitation whatsoever in scourging the house of the "few bad apples". I dont doubt that in the field of Paedophilia, this is indeed a few bad apples. You see - the majority of humanity IMHO are decent people, so why wouldnt the Catholic church be composed of its fair share of good caring folks, who greatly outnumber the charlottans ?

The problem is of course that it isnt a bastion of society, nor since its inception has it ever been. How is that even remotely possible, when its entire existence - its very foundation - is based upon false pretenses ? The truth, AFAIC is that it has spent its entire existence co-opting spirituality for its own illicit gain.

Which, needless to say is something that works hand in hand with the machinations of the global oligarchs, whose modus operandi has been practically identical.

We are the useless eaters, and what we dont know cant hurt them.
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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:43 pm

slimmouse wrote:If the Catholic church, along with its leadership are such the bastions of society they claim to be, they wouldnt have the slightest hesitation whatsoever in scourging the house of the "few bad apples". I dont doubt that in the field of Paedophilia, this is indeed a few bad apples. You see - the majority of humanity IMHO are decent people, so why wouldnt the Catholic church be composed of its fair share of good caring folks, who greatly outnumber the charlottans ?

The problem is of course that it isnt a bastion of society, nor since its inception has it ever been. How is that even remotely possible, when its entire existence - its very foundation - is based upon false pretenses ? The truth, AFAIC is that it has spent its entire existence co-opting spirituality for its own illicit gain.


You're exactly right, even though I'm still a member, and have sympathy with the Church on a local scale. One odd thing I've observed over the years is that the only priests who really get chased out of the Church - the only ones who really are treated as monsters, defrocked, defamed, and rendered excommunicate - are priests who have met adult women, and who want to enter into an honest union with them under God (so to speak). The Church goes daft if a priest somehow manages to fall in love with somebody and find a wife - and it's not just the hierarchy that goes mental, but the laity as well. Often the whole parish. I've known priests who literally had to go on the run because a sexual affair with an adult woman was discovered, or admitted to.

There are old women who still won't speak those guy's names now. I know it sounds like something from a novel, but it's true. They won't discuss the runaway priests (or the suicides). They never existed now. It's kind of hilarious how many runaways there have been in recent times, though. It doesn't matter how conservative or set in your ways you might be - if just under 10% of your parish priests keep running away to get married, it's something that will have to be faced.

There is no forgiveness for these men, though, yet - because they shagged a woman.

Meanwhile the raving alkies, the incorrigible bullies, the sadists, the schizoids, the contemptuous eunuchs who hate their flock, and the paedophiles who prey on it, have been given all the sympathy and support that a vast ancient structure of wealth and power can provide.

That's the crux of the problem. If you're normal, and human, you have no place in the Church. Or politics, for that matter.
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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby lupercal » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:14 am

Pope to deliver Thought For The Day on Christmas Eve

Pope Benedict has recorded a Christmas message especially for the UK, to be broadcast by the BBC on Christmas Eve.

It will go out as the Thought For The Day on the Today programme on Radio 4.

It is the first time that Pope Benedict has addressed a Christmas message especially for one of the countries he has visited during the year.

The BBC's David Willey says it is the Pope's way of saying thank you for what he regarded as a hugely successful trip to England and Scotland in September.

He speaks of his great fondness for Britain and asks listeners to step back for a moment to consider the meaning of the birth of Jesus Christ, our Vatican correspondent says.

The Pope does not like to perform in front of teleprompters, and he chose to read his radio message in a room next to the cavernous audience hall in the Vatican, where earlier on Wednesday he had welcomed several thousand pilgrims from around the world, he adds.

Negotiations between the BBC and the Vatican went on for many months to enable the recording to take place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12063684
............................

watch out UK folks, I think Benny wants his monasteries back..

p.s. I wasn't gonna add this but I can't resist:
Image
Radio 4's Thought For The Day offers three minutes of personal reflection

Are you listening Sinéad?
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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby norton ash » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:59 am

Just off the phone with my ma, and she's having a mass said tomorrow for my dead dad's living relatives. Whattaya gonna do.

The RC church contains the black mirror battery of its imperial self. The local history in my region of explorer-missionary, village, reservation, residential school, small-town outpost priests and brothers is pretty damning. Some of these guys go Kurtz, there are cases of generational and family abuse, loads of transfers and 'cures'... all of it ignored... and amazing tales of heroism, revolutionary acts, and community work in other cases, much of which was sabotaged by cops and robbers working together. Land reformers, conquistadors, inquisitors, sadists, pervert rings run by royalists in silk purple socks.

I'm with Sinead, mad bog coptic that she is.

Great thread, all. I am not worthy to receive it, but only say the word and I shall be healed.
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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:30 am

lupercal wrote:Pope to deliver Thought For The Day on Christmas Eve

"Pope Benedict has recorded a Christmas message especially for the UK, to be broadcast by the BBC on Christmas Eve.

It will go out as the Thought For The Day on the Today programme on Radio 4.

It is the first time that Pope Benedict has addressed a Christmas message especially for one of the countries he has visited during the year.

The BBC's David Willey says it is the Pope's way of saying thank you for what he regarded as a hugely successful trip to England and Scotland in September.

He speaks of his great fondness for Britain and asks listeners to step back for a moment to consider the meaning of the birth of Jesus Christ, our Vatican correspondent says..."

watch out UK folks, I think Benny wants his monasteries back..


He's still wooing the wobbly right flank of the Anglicans, who feel their own Church isn't strict or exclusive enough. He's after the poor miserable gits who believe they are suffering because of a lack of rigid authoritarian dogma in their lives - they want to be more closely controlled, sadly enough. A lot of them also lament the made-up fact that there's a lack of open and vocal disapproval towards gays and uppity women in this country. They've found a true hero for their cause.

He won a lot of them over on his last visit, even though he spent a good portion of it asleep. He even got some Church of England people - the High Church types, the real old-schoolers. No publicity is bad publicity, it seems, and the Vatican is on a mission drive.

His "great fondness for Britain"... Hehehe. I enjoyed his gig at Bellahouston Park a lot, but there's no point pretending that he did. His aide let the cat out of the bag, so far as Papal opinion of Britain goes, by refusing to come over at all, on the grounds that flying into Heathrow is like arriving in "a Third World country" full of "aggressive atheists."

A lot of people thought at first that he was complaining, justifiably, about the substandard services and the overcrowding and delays at Heathrow, but a helpful Vatican spokesperson soon cleared that up.

Vatican sources said Cardinal Kasper - who stepped down in July as the head of the department that deals with other Christian denominations - was suffering from gout and had been advised by his doctors not to travel to the UK.

They also said his "Third World" comment referred to the UK's multicultural society.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11317441


Well, that's fair enough. I thought he was saying something really offensive at first... but it turns out he's just repulsed by coloured folk and all them weird foreigners with their incomprehensible jibber jabber that he might see in the airport.

Image

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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby lupercal » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:52 am

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:He won a lot of them over on his last visit, even though he spent a good portion of it asleep. He even got some Church of England people - the High Church types, the real old-schoolers. No publicity is bad publicity, it seems, and the Vatican is on a mission drive.

Re-evangelizing Britain, yeah that sounds like Benny's style. After spending twenty years defrocking political priests like Aristide I don't imagine he's very popular in Latin and Central America but that's where the action is.
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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:33 am

norton ash wrote:Great thread, all. I am not worthy to receive it, but only say the word and I shall be healed.


Yes, it is a great thread; I'm enjoying it tremendously. It's been a real eye-opener for me, though, the apparent unanimity of really, really negative feelings about the Church here, despite (or because of) the fact that many are Catholic. I guess it has to do with the type of experience people have had with the Church. In my case, as I said, I went to a Catholic school and was taught by nuns, some of whom were really amazing people who inspired me (some were jerks, but they were a small minority).

I think of Sister Theresa-Francis, who was one of the smartest people I ever met and who, when I was failing math, made me stay after school with her and somehow transformed trig and geometry and algebra from inscrutable squiggles into something easy and fun. I still don't know how she did it, but after she started helping me I was able to get 98% and 100% on tests. There were Sister Shirley and Sister Margaret Gordon, who taught us English and who opened up the world of Shakespeare and poetry and short stories and made them come alive for us. I used to write detective stories for fun and Sister Margaret was my most enthusiastic reader. More than 3 decades later I think I still remember every short story and play we dissected. Most of the nuns did charity work in addition to teaching us; Sister Theresa-Francis spoke 5 languages including perfect Castillian Spanish in addition to her math skills, and in the evenings she taught refugees and new immigrants English and French.

I read the entire New Testament in Religion class, and it was my first experience of exegesis and the art of debate. A big part of our education involved charity work: we were always holding bake sales, walkathons, dances to raise money, volunteering at a soup kitchen, doing things like accompanying mentally handicapped adults and helping them to do their Christmas shopping, going caroling, knitting warm slippers for elderly people, etc. They taught us never to shuffle our feet when we walk, always to open doors for older people and to offer to carry their load, to cover our mouth when we yawn or cough, to keep our surroundings spotless and to sit and stand up straight.

That was in Canada. Here in Egypt, Catholic schools have provided generations of Egyptians, Christian and Muslim, with an excellent education.

But if you want to go where the Catholic Church has the greatest presence, you'd have to go to one of the poorest, most desperate places on earth: where the zabbaleen (garbage people) live. It's a community of around 80-100,000 people, generations of squatters who eke out a living by collecting and scavenging garbage, hidden in the deserted wilderness of the Moqattam Mountain. For decades they existed in a sort of twilight zone, unacknowledged and invisible, with no status and of course no government services. I went there just once, in the 1980s, having heard so much about Sister Emmanuelle, an elderly nun who was creating little pockets of heaven in the very bowels of hell. You drive up the dusty Moqattam Mountain until suddenly you're hit with the stench, and the sight of rotting piles of garbage everywhere, with families living literally among the trash. The filth is indescribable and pervasive: inside as well as outside people's homes, covering every surface, even where the children and animals play. Until Sister Emmanuelle visited there in the 1970s, Cairenes did not know or care where their garbage went, or anything about the people who collected it for a living.

I'd heard about the zabbaleen because of this tiny, elderly nun who was literally moving mountains. For 22 years she lived among them, opening schools, clinics, organizing the garbage collectors into efficient recycling projects, providing guidance and support to families, recruiting volunteers to work with the nuns who were flocking to join her from all over the world, and hitting Egypt's millionaires up for huge donations. She was a dynamo, and everybody who met her was inspired to pitch in somehow.

'
The work Sister Emmanuelle did was crucial .... when she arrived here the zabbaleen were marginalized and no one wanted to look at them, they were people who had no rights,' Zeina Zarif, the Egyptian coordinator for Association Sister Emmanuelle, told The Associated Press in Cairo.

'Her work marked this country,' she added. Link


Already, over 20 years ago, you could see the difference she was making. Moving through the unbearable ugliness and filth, you'd suddenly come upon one of her schools, an oasis of cleanliness and calm, with white walls decorated with cheerful murals drawn by the children. Inside, it was equally spotless and organized, with neatly uniformed, well-fed children and friendly teachers. The nuns were like angels: where they went, others soon followed, asking how they could help.

Sister Emmanuelle initiated development efforts in the Muqattam, a peripheral Cairo slum, founding a primary school and providing scavengers with vehicles to haul garbage.

She eventually attracted broader attention to their plight, which led to new schools, health care projects and income-generating strategies for the slum dwellers.

'She was living right among them, the garbage collectors, the pigs, the whole mess. I had never seen anything like this in my life,' said Dr. Mounir Neamatalla, a leading Egyptian expert in environmental science and poverty reduction who worked closely with her throughout the 1980s.

'You could see one of the worst qualities of life on the planet, but in this inferno was an enterprising population that worked like ants,' he said.

Neamatalla worked with the nun on a composting plant to process the vast amounts of manure produced by the garbage collectors' pigs, which was then processed and sold as fertilizer. Link


Since the pioneering work of Sister Emmanuelle, which took the world's most invisible people and brought them into the light, the Church has maintained a strong presence among the zabbaleen:

Mansheya is one of the poorest neighborhoods of Cairo, the capital city of Egypt. Here, a Comboni Missionary has started a project for the zabbaleen, the people who live out of gathering and recycling garbage. His initiative goes beyond the diversity of religious beliefs. He unites Christians and Muslims.

Entering Mansheya is like descending into hell, the hell of poverty and degradation: in Cairo, the capital of Egypt, it is a neighborhood of garbage recyclers, the zabbaleen. They go to the rest of the city, pick up bags of rubbish and take them home, where they are sorted out. They usually manage to recycle, manually, 90% of the garbage, while garbage companies, with mechanized systems, may succeed to recycle only 60%.

Zabbaleen is derived from the Arab word zibala, which means "garbage". Their neighborhood lies at the feet of the Moquattam hills and near the City of the Dead, the century-old city cemetery, where many homeless people live in its rich mausoleums as if they were custodians of the dead.

The work of the zabbaleen is hard, degrading and dangerous. Germs, gases and toxic substances hide in the rubbish. Even children from six years of age onwards work here. The zabbaleen mostly come from the south of the country, the poorest region of Egypt, trying to escape hunger and misery. Originally, they were almost all Christians, then some Muslim families began to move in and they account for 10% of the total population of the neighborhood.

Fr. Luciano Verdoscia, a Comboni missionary, has chosen to work in this place for the zabbaleen, just as the brave French nun, Sister Emmanuelle, did and as some Sisters of Blessed Mother Teresa are doing today.

Forgotten by the state

The surrounding environment of Mansheya is appalling. Narrow and uneven alleys are lined with miserable hovels. Sacks of garbage fill the streets and the dwellings. Swarms of flies surround the sacks while rats rummage even in the daylight. A heavy and pungent smell fills the air. These surroundings and the life of the garbage recyclers seem so desperate that any attempt to help them may appear useless. Indeed, the government does practically nothing for them and is not pleased when their plight is reported by the media.

Fr. Luciano, however, did not give up on them. Now 48 years old, his vocation is at its peak when he is in touch with the poor. "My mother was concerned with helping the poor of the village. She has been a great example for me. I joined the Comboni Missionaries when I was 18 and, since then, I too have been concerned with the poor people: in Naples, in the American poor neighborhoods, in Sudan and now here in Egypt."

As a matter of fact, the main work of Fr. Luciano is directing the Department of Islamic Studies and Inter-religious Dialogue of Dar Comboni (Comboni House), now a Pontifical Institute. His teaching work, however, does not prevent him from being active on the streets, with the poor.

To help the children

Last year, Fr. Luciano launched a project that was meant to improve the conditions of the otherwise desperate zabbaleen. Its immediate aim was to help the children: "It is necessary to break the continuation of those factors that perpetuate this extreme misery from generation to generation. For this reason, we want to help the children to understand that it is possible to live in a more dignified way. To do so, we try first of all to raise the standard of their education."

The realization of this project is entrusted to an association called Abna′ wadi el Nil (The Children of the Nile Valley). This association provides assistance and education to the poorest children among the poor of Mansheya. Nevertheless, it is not easy to see who are the poorest as practically everybody in Mansheya lives in misery: "Everybody here lives an undignified life", points out Fr. Luciano, "but not everybody has the same needs. We visit the homes of the children and see which families are absolutely unable to help their own children. Sometimes, this is a difficult choice. It may happen that we have to refuse help to children whose family are able to pay their education but refuse to do so."

Fr. Luciano did not start a school of his own. What he does is help the poorest children to shoulder the expenses for school fees and offer them a centre where they can receive private tutoring for free. Private tutoring is very common in Egypt and it is actually necessary to compensate for the shortcomings of public education. Private tutoring, however, is quite costly and, therefore, inaccessible to the poor children.

An island of cleanliness

The association established by Fr. Luciano has, therefore, opened a tutorial centre. It is like an island of calm and cleanliness in the surrounding sea of decay, that is Mansheya. Here, volunteer teachers offer afternoon tutoring to two batches of children. Actually, the centre is just a little more than a shed and the school desks used there are throw-aways from a school. For a child of Mansheya, however, it is a place of relief from the quasi-infernal condition of the neighborhood. Even more, it is a place where they can gather and hope for a better future. "Our objective", explains Fr. Luciano, "is to help the development of the children. We offer them a clean environment and help them make progress in their studies so as to increase their chances for a better job later."

Three or four times a week, a medical doctor or a nurse comes to the centre to treat the sick or injured children. A hot meal is provided to those who are malnourished. A social worker, present everyday, also gives counseling to the children.

The centre helps children of any religious belief. However, the witness to the values of the Gospel is quite evident. For this reason, an association of Coptic Christians, as well as a number of Muslims, helps Fr. Luciano in his work. Service to humankind can really create collaboration among people of different faith.

Father Luciano is convinced: "Helping people of different ethnic, religious and cultural backgrounds to stay together promotes tolerance and peace in society. Many Muslims appreciate this project and have helped it to succeed. It is a step forward towards knowing each other better and overcoming atavistic prejudices. As a missionary, this is my way to proclaim the Gospel -- not with words but through the witness of love." Mansheya, too, is a step forward to a dialogue among religions and civilizations. Link


Below the radar of the world's media and blaring headlines about pedophile priests, working tirelessly and anonymously among the world's poorest and most forgotten people, beyond the feverish tunnel-vision of Sinead O'Connor and millionaire atheist columnists, Sister Emmanuelle and Father Luciano are only two among many, many unknown soldiers in the vast army of selfless love, service and devotion, which what the Catholic Church represents to the huge number of human beings whose lives it has transformed for the better. Since nobody else here seems at all interested in acknowledging them, I must.
"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby hanshan » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:11 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:I was being serious, actually. I have read a ton of articles connecting him because he's a name that always gets brought up -- I'm still unaware of any documentation actually connecting him. I think he joined the agency in 1951 and started heading up TSS in 1953? That's post-BLUEBIRD, right?

Lately I think most of what I "know" about this material is bullshit speculation...reading A Terrible Mistake really drove that home. I don't care if these people are monsters and assholes -- I still want actual data points instead of echo chamber slander, you know? You know.

Edit: From "Whiteout: The CIA, Drugs and the Press" pg. 195

The CIA's Office of Security, headed at the time by Sheffield Edwards, developed a hypnosis project called Bluebird, whose object was to get an individual "to do our bidding against his will and even against such fundamental laws of nature as self-preservation."

The first Bluebird operations were conducted in Japan in October 1950 and were reportedly witnessed by Richard Helms.


Of course, there's no documentation at all for a years-long project at Harvard involving poor old Ted. So let's all bear in mind that when a wombat asks questions about documentation, it's not because a wombat is debunking, rejecting, refusing to believe -- I'm just asking if there's any documentation.


So let's all bear in mind that when a wombat asks questions about documentation, it's not because a wombat is debunking, rejecting, refusing to believe -- I'm just asking if there's any documentation


fair'nuff My rhetorical wasn't questioning your sincerity, nor your commitment; it
was more on the order of what banana boat did said query fall from?,i.e., does he know what he's askin', or just fishin'? Helms had all extent docs trashed after the first hint of Congressional inquiry, circa. early 70s. However, crossfiled, misfiled, docs did resurface later; discovered FOIA, some of which were stumbled over by Ross, etal, but they were only financials, not raw operationals. Is there an existing papertrail linking any of the above? Nein. Bluebird did precede Gottlieb? &, as TSS he would have complete access. Is there a Gottlieb connect w/ hardcopy? 'Course not. These guys weren't idiots.
To avoid unnecessary scrutiny, projects would terminate on paper & resurface through a different cutout. Anything that works prioritized.

Lately I think most of what I "know" about this material is bullshit speculation...reading A Terrible Mistake really drove that home. I don't care if these people are monsters and assholes -- I still want actual data points instead of echo chamber slander, you know? You know.


Yeah - the redundancy could be treble.
Can't read any of the modern revisionist drek. If you weren't there...


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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby beeline » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:27 pm

Alice wrote:Yes, it is a great thread; I'm enjoying it tremendously. It's been a real eye-opener for me, though, the apparent unanimity of really, really negative feelings about the Church here, despite (or because of) the fact that many are Catholic.


I too am a recovering Catholic. But I did not stop describing myself as "Catholic" until about two years ago, when the abuses in Ireland really started to come out. "Catholic" was a convienient term to describe various aspects of my personality and personal life; now, however I would just say I'm a secular humanist or athiest or agnostic. Depends on what day it is.
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Re: Sinead O'Connor: Some Burning Questions for the Pope

Postby hanshan » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:44 pm

norton ash wrote:Just off the phone with my ma, and she's having a mass said tomorrow for my dead dad's living relatives. Whattaya gonna do.

The RC church contains the black mirror battery of its imperial self. The local history in my region of explorer-missionary, village, reservation, residential school, small-town outpost priests and brothers is pretty damning. Some of these guys go Kurtz, there are cases of generational and family abuse, loads of transfers and 'cures'... all of it ignored... and amazing tales of heroism, revolutionary acts, and community work in other cases, much of which was sabotaged by cops and robbers working together. Land reformers, conquistadors, inquisitors, sadists, pervert rings run by royalists in silk purple socks.

I'm with Sinead, mad bog coptic that she is.

Great thread, all. I am not worthy to receive it, but only say the word and I shall be healed.


Sorry to hear that, norton ash. Whattaya gonna do.

See Vollman Seven Dreamshttp://www.amazon.com/Fathers-Crows-Dreams-William-Vollmann/dp/014016717X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293121583&sr=1-1series.
They burnt all the documentation after
he dug the goods. Same for B.C. Indian boarding schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vollman#The_Seven_Dreams:_A_Book_of_North_American_Landscapes_Cycle

I'm with Sinead, mad bog coptic that she is.


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