Giffords shooting

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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Outrageous factual error!

nymag edit-monkey quoted by Simulist wrote:Yes, Fuller is also the guy who told reporters after the shooting, “It looks like Palin, Beck, Sharron Angle and the rest got their first target." He had campaigned for Giffords during her reelection. He said he attended the "Congress on Your Corner" event where the shooting occurred to "give [Giffords] a boost and to protect her from the tea party crime syndicate and to shout them down." Following the shooting, he also remarked, "Why would [Giffords] attend an event in full view of the public with no security whatsoever? She lived under constant fear of this rhetoric and hatred that was seething."


HUMPHRIES said that. Days ago. In effect blaming Giffords for her own shooting. (Also implying it should be normal that political events should be armed camps.) Which is probably why Fuller -- who was shot, for feck's sake -- is so righteously angry at Humphries.

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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby Simulist » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:50 pm

Good catch, Jack.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:33 pm

http://counterpunch.org/rudd01182011.html

January 18, 2011
An Ex-Weather Underground Radical on the Tucson Shootings
From Terrorism to Nonviolence

By MARK RUDD

In 1970, when I was 22 years old — the same age as Tucson gunman Jared Loughner — I was a founder of the Weather Underground, an offshoot of the antiwar group Students for a Democratic Society. At that time, having fashioned myself "an agent of necessity," I was willing to kill or be killed for some romantic notion of "the revolution." So it's not that difficult for me to imagine what might have been in the mind of someone like Loughner, who perhaps acted (as I did) in the misguided belief that it was up to him to do what needed to be done.

By the winter of 1970, the members of the Weather Underground had gone over the edge. A small group of us in New York City, charged with "taking the struggle to a higher level," was planning a bombing at Fort Dix, New Jersey, which was then an army basic training center. Three pipe bombs filled with dynamite and larded with nails were to be left at a noncommissioned officers' dance to remind our fellow Americans of the millions of tons of bombs our country had been dropping on the Vietnamese for five straight years.

I wasn't in the group making the bombs, but I knew what was being planned and — to my eternal shame — didn't try to stop it. For a nice Jewish boy from New Jersey, this was a very strange place to be. In retrospect, my friends and I had thought ourselves into a corner.

We were heartbroken and despairing over the fact that the war in Vietnam had dragged on despite massive public opposition and protest. Our country was murdering millions of people. As students, budding intellectuals even, we had studied the origins of the war and the nature of power in this country. We were keenly aware of the violent revolt of the Third World against U.S. control, in Cuba, China, Vietnam, and in the ghettos and barrios of this country, and were convinced that the American system of global domination — we still called it "imperialism" then — was coming to an end.

What to do? As white people, we could have just stood aside, but that would have been like the Germans acquiescing to the Nazi concentration camps. To not be willing to share the risks non-white people were taking, to stand safely on the sidelines applauding, would only be evidence of our unearned privilege. The time for action was here: indeed, hadn't the Black Panthers taught us to chant at demonstrations, 'The revolution has come/ Time to pick up the gun'?

So we were the self-appointed elect. It was up to us to act because no one else seemed to understand the depths of the atrocities being committed by our government or had the courage to act against them. All Americans were legitimate targets, too, we thought, because in their inaction or ignorance they were complicit with the war crimes.

Fatefully, the bombs that were being assembled in the basement of that townhouse on West Eleventh Street in Greenwich Village, Manhattan, on the morning of March 6, 1970, went off prematurely. Ted Gold, Diana Oughton, and Terry Robbins — brilliant young people filled with a passion for justice — inadvertently sacrificed themselves in order to avoid an even worse tragedy had the bombs made it to their intended target that night.

The remnants of the Weather Underground eventually regrouped and issued a statement that we would not ever target people, taking precaution to only bomb symbolic targets such as buildings. We had gone up to the edge of the precipice, looked over, and pulled back to an extent. Over the next years, as President Nixon escalated the war against Vietnam, the Weather Underground went on to place small bombs in the Pentagon, the Capitol building, and about two dozen such targets, always phoning in warnings. I still thank God that no one was ever killed.

Meanwhile, emotionally shattered, I dropped out of the organization by the end of that year but remained a fugitive until well after the war ended, when I turned myself in to the authorities. I spent the next quarter century trying to figure out why I had made so many disastrous decisions as a very young man.

I believe that it had something to do with an exaggerated sense of my own specialness and importance. It had something to do with wanting to prove myself as a man, a motive exploited by all armies and other terror groups in all eras. It had something to do with my yearning to be a true revolutionary, like my "guerillero heroico," Ernesto 'Che' Guevara.

In the end, though, it all came around to my believing in the absolute necessity of violence based on terrible moral grievances. Over the years, I haven't forgotten those grievances — my country continues to wage needless wars, and this society is no more structurally just — but I've completely rejected violence as a solution, for a myriad of reasons not the least being moral, but also including efficacy. Simply put, violence doesn't work.

In theory, a small amount of violence might be moral to stop a larger violence. In practice in the U.S., violence only isolates the revolutionaries and gives a great big fat gift to the government: they can call us terrorists. I've become an advocate of nonviolent strategy because it's been proven so effective in the 20th century — it is a truly 'zen' answer to the militarism of the U.S.

In addition to the pragmatic advantages of nonviolence, it also has certain moral and even spiritual advantages. I once heard the Dalai Lama answer the question of why he doesn't hate the Chinese, despite what they've done to his country. He said, "They're our neighbors, and when this is all over, we'll have to live with them."

Right now, the rightwing in America has a profound sense of moral grievance. The country has lost its way, but instead of looking deeply at the nature of power — at the banks and pharmaceutical corporations and military contractors and media conglomerates that have looted our economy through their control of the government the last thirty-plus years — they've created a simplistic culprit, encapsulated in the absurd notion that "government is bad, unless we're running it." For many in this camp, there seems to be no sense of a social contract.

To a not insignificant faction, Representative Gabrielle Giffords was a symbol of "the enemy" and previously had been "targeted" as such, so it's not entirely surprising that an unhinged young man would arm himself with an easily-obtained automatic weapon and do what (he likely thought) needed to be done. Collateral damage, such as murdering six people and wounding a dozen more, has to be accepted in war — at least according to way it is still waged.

As the Weather Underground believed in the absolute necessity of bombs to address actual moral grievances such as the Vietnam War and racism, Loughner might have believed in the absolute necessity of a Glock to answer his imagined moral grievances. Violent actors in this country — whether James Earl Ray, Timothy McVeigh, or Scott Roeder, who in 2009 killed a Kansas abortion provider — are always armed not just with weapons, but with the conviction that their grievances demand satisfaction and their violence is righteous.

But the shooting of Giffords, Judge John Roll, Christina Taylor Green, and the other victims in that Tucson parking lot was not a means to anything. It was an end in itself. The gunman's goal was quite likely existential — an individual committing a horrific act for its own sake.

I doubt that Loughner, sitting in a Tucson jail, gives these matters much thought. I doubt that he cares much about who won the 2010 midterms or who will win the presidency in 2012. I doubt that a man who seems so confused and desperate cares much about ideology. Sarah Palin and her cross-hairs map deserve nothing but ignominy, but Loughner probably didn't worry that liberals would blame conservatives for the shooting or that conservatives would take umbrage at every media accusation. If he's a political actor, he probably doesn't know it.

After I turned myself in, in 1977, I spent the next 25 years trying to understand what had gone so horribly wrong. One of my most profound conclusions was to make a commitment to pursue only nonviolent action — righteous action still, but without anger or brutality.

Like me, Loughner — though he's the product of a different era and may have been motivated only by his madness — could have a long time to consider the logic behind his alleged actions. I only hope that he and those families that were destroyed can find peace.

Mark Rudd, one of the founders of the militant Weather Underground group, is a retired community college instructor and the author of the new book Underground: My Life With SDS and the Weathermen.

This essay was originally published by New Clear Vision.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby stefano » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:02 am

Related, I think.
______________
Destructive device found along Spokane MLK parade route

A backpack containing a potentially deadly device capable of inflicting "multiple casualties" was found in Spokane, Washington, along the route of a Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. parade, the FBI said Tuesday.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby nathan28 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:35 am

Doug Henwood of Left Business Observer interviewed Mark Ames last week. A link to the podcast is here.

Ames points out that Loughner applied to 65 low-wage jobs last year and worked something like five, probably b/c he had a midemeanor drug conviction on his record. Henwood points out that Arizona was one of the hardest-hit states by the R/E collapse, along with California and Florida. AZ is also the state with the highest level of economic inequality.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:40 am



Blah was gonna add something but anyway.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby justdrew » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:02 pm

nathan28 wrote:Doug Henwood of Left Business Observer interviewed Mark Ames last week. A link to the podcast is here.

Ames points out that Loughner applied to 65 low-wage jobs last year and worked something like five, probably b/c he had a midemeanor drug conviction on his record. Henwood points out that Arizona was one of the hardest-hit states by the R/E collapse, along with California and Florida. AZ is also the state with the highest level of economic inequality.


nothing much has been said about it but in the college video he made he was expressing the expectation that his expulsion would result in him being homeless. So it sounds to me like his parents were in process of washing their hands of the troublesome son.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby undead » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:28 pm

stefano wrote:Related, I think.
______________
Destructive device found along Spokane MLK parade route

A backpack containing a potentially deadly device capable of inflicting "multiple casualties" was found in Spokane, Washington, along the route of a Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. parade, the FBI said Tuesday.


The FBI released photos of the Swiss Army-brand backpack and two T-shirts that were found within. One shirt says "Treasure Island 2009" and the other reads "Stevens County Relay For Life June 25th-26th 2010."


It's too bad that terrorism laws don't apply to the real terrorists.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby nathan28 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:40 pm

justdrew wrote:
nathan28 wrote:Doug Henwood of Left Business Observer interviewed Mark Ames last week. A link to the podcast is here.

Ames points out that Loughner applied to 65 low-wage jobs last year and worked something like five, probably b/c he had a midemeanor drug conviction on his record. Henwood points out that Arizona was one of the hardest-hit states by the R/E collapse, along with California and Florida. AZ is also the state with the highest level of economic inequality.


nothing much has been said about it but in the college video he made he was expressing the expectation that his expulsion would result in him being homeless. So it sounds to me like his parents were in process of washing their hands of the troublesome son.


Yeah, he seems to have been a ne'er-do-weller, or always behind the eight ball, or both.

I want to mitigate what I said earlier about schizophrenia.

I *do* think, in a way that probably won't be accepted by the theoretically-confused psychiatric paradigm, that Loughner was exhibiting some schizophrenia, but I'll get to that in a moment. Right now IMO he strikes me as the type of kid who might have at some point been just a shade more intelligent and intellectually predisposed than his classmates, but who didn't qualify as a "smart kid," or whatever, and ends up being the dude who wears black t-shirts and sits in the back of the room acting out, because he's bored and understimulated and not Ritalinized. I'd suggest this led to the weird vulgar Nietzschean thing, contextualized by teabagging, "blood libel", etc. I think none of that is all that schizophrenic. I also think that the friend who was quoted was right, Loughner planned this out, it was a sort of art project. Remember that Andre Breton said that the "ultimate surrealist act" was firing a gun indiscriminately into a crowd.

That said, the context is important. Loughner was a loser and knew it. He got rejected for sixty minimum wage jobs. I was unemployed for a couple months a few years ago and probably sent out 200+ resumes and cover letters, but just was in a new area and didn't have a "network" that I could draw on. That will do some really nasty stuff to your psychology, I'll tell you for free.

Then Loughner embraced this nonsense about "grammar". Literally, the thinking there is pathological, it's schizophrenic. Even if he wasn't predisposed to it, dabbling with shit like that, taking it too seriously, is really a bad thing to do. This is one of the reasons I'm hostile to chemtrailtardism, because photographing pet hair and synthetic threads and calling them "Morgellons fibers" or whatever seems to me to be designed practically on purpose to parasitize and plague anyone even slightly predisposed to accepting those ideas. It's all fun and games when you smoke a bowl and post pictures of toxic jet exhaust trails to the internet and claim it's part of a conspiracy, but then you're afraid to even look out a window to check the weather. Same shit with this "grammar" bullshit and pseudo-etymology like Jordan Maxwell. Because materially speaking, sky-clouding jet contrails blocking out the sun are bad news and language does control you. Just not the way thousands and thousands of internet fanboys tell you.

Does this have anything to do with the shooting? I don't know. In the framework Loughner constructed, it was a politically motivated shooting. He seems to have used the conspiragrammar theory to target Giffords. Of course, if he was responding to her blowing off that question by hatching a murderous plot to 'prove' conspiragrammar, he didn't need to prove it but wanted something else. IOW, I think his weirdo-ness is secondary, save to the extent it's part of his "message".
Last edited by nathan28 on Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:40 pm

That said, the context is important. Loughner was a loser and knew it. He got rejected for sixty minimum wage jobs. I was unemployed for a couple months a few years ago and probably sent out 200+ resumes and cover letters, but just was in a new area and didn't have a "network" that I could draw on. That will do some really nasty stuff to your psychology, I'll tell you for free.


Yeah that can do some serious damage to you, especially if you have nothing else in your life and no safety nets.

I've heard that its cos he was male, poor and white that he targeted Giffords. A successful jewish female. Not even a deliberate part of his stragedy, just a typical unconscious white male reaction to Barak Obama getting elected.

Of course this is bollocks, and this sort of thing mainly comes from some academics. Especially ones who think that somehow cos they can talk leftist theory in academic speak that the world is somehow ok. That because they are ok and have access to the "power structure" everyone does, and that this is an attack on their access to the power structure by someone on the other side of politics. What they don't see is that this is most likely an act by someone outside all those power structures who thinks they will probably never find a way in.

Darryl Mason said this:

http://yournewreality.blogspot.com/2011 ... -make.html

He has a point too.

If he was ignored by the media then .. can you see the strange loop. To me its clear JLL knew the fuss he'd cause, and it seems to me that he thought this was the only way he could make some real meaning out of his life.

Dunno how mental illness fits with all that, but everyone is crazy to some extent, and all mental illnesses are better viewed as a spectrum which everyone is fits into. We're all prone to our brain chemistry going a bit funny, some are more prone than others tho, but thats it. No one is immune to some mental conditions if their life goes pear shaped enough.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby Nordic » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:12 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:
Dunno how mental illness fits with all that



I think the part where he walked up to a total stranger and shot them in the face, then started shooting everyone around him. I think that's how the mental illness fit in.

I'm one of the most empathetic and sympathetic people you'd probably ever run into in real life, but to start ascribing any kind of "normal" stress to this guy takes me over the red line. I've also suffered huge amounts of stress and psychological torment from my own financial and career situation the last two years, and I never took a gun and shot somebody in the face.

You know what I mean?

This guy was FUBAR. His brain was FUBAR.

And trying to put blame on societal pressures, as tempting as that might be, just doesn't feel right to me, it feels dishonest. The guy was seriously FUBAR and would have been FUBAR under probably any circumstances.

People are like bottles of homemade beer in the cellar. Some of them just blow up.

I'm sympathetic to him insofar as his mind is gone, that's always godawful and tragic, but, no matter what happened to him, this guy's a dangerous motherfucker and can't ever be released into society again.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby undead » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:16 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:If he was ignored by the media then .. can you see the strange loop. To me its clear JLL knew the fuss he'd cause, and it seems to me that he thought this was the only way he could make some real meaning out of his life.


A close friend of the alleged Arizona assassin :

"I think the reason he did it was mainly to just promote chaos. He wanted the media to freak out about this whole thing. He wanted exactly what's happening. He wants all of that."


This is definitely the explanation. It's pretty obvious. As far as "schizophrenia" (a very unscientific label for a range of non-sane symptoms) goes, the main thing would be that he says he is "dreaming" all the time. "I am a sleepwalker - who turns off the alarm clock" he says. This describes a person who is totally removed from reality. Now, the entire country revolves around him, just like in his narcissistic dream world. Of course he wanted attention, but it's hard to imagine what he thought would happen. To me, the main indicator that he is truly insane is that he didn't kill himself after shooting all those people, because a sane person would want to avoid the hellish consequences.

Now when you see this kind of derangement, it's not hard to imagine how he could have been influenced by the violent political rhetoric of the Tea Party faction. I mean, he was like that for the past year, during which statements were made about resorting to firearms when legislative campaigns were unsuccessful. Also, Giffords was taking the lead in denouncing this. So you take a psychotic grown kid and have him listen to Fox News every day, because he lives at home with his parents in Arizona. His father is reported to have been unemployed for years and yet somehow has a lot of money. And the kid keeps his black bag-o-ammo in the trunk of the family car.

What a strange situation.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby Nordic » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:21 pm

undead wrote:Now when you see this kind of derangement, it's not hard to imagine how he could have been influenced by the violent political rhetoric of the Tea Party faction.



Yeah, but that's just speculation.

I despise the Tea Party and the rhetoric of those people as much as anybody, but to blame this guy's actions on that in any way just isn't honest. It's wishful thinking, really.

Because we simply have no idea.

I've thought for quite some time that the Psyops folks who write the scripts for the Coulters and the Hannities and the Becks of the world have been doing this on purpose, to see what it would take for people to ACTUALLY START DOING what they command, i.e. how much control do they really have over people when it comes right down to it. Like those tests where they see if you'll give an electric shock to a loved one. You know?

And this may have been a point reached for them, but maybe not. This guy was so far gone mentally and his actions are so fucking bizarre, and hell, HE'S so fucking bizarre that you can't say one way or another. You can say "it's not hard to imagine", exactly. It's imagination at this point, nothing more.
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:30 pm

Here's a link to the clip of Beck saying "You're going to have to shoot them in the head."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQcvbw6E ... r_embedded
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Re: Giffords shooting

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:10 pm

Looks like there is a video of the shooting spree:


Tucson Video Shows Judge Saving Other Victim

By TAMARA AUDI

TUCSON, Ariz.—Arizona federal Judge John Roll appears to have died while saving the life of another man during the shooting rampage here on Jan. 8, according to an investigator who has viewed surveillance video from the crime scene.

Video from the Safeway supermarket near Tucson shows the accused gunman, Jared Loughner, walking past a concrete pillar, raising his gun and firing at close range directly at U.S. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, who is standing off-camera, said Chris Nanos, a captain with the Pima County Sheriff's Department who has viewed the video.

Only a wisp of what appears to be Ms. Giffords' hair is seen on the video, Mr. Nanos said. The gunman fires first at Ms. Giffords "without hesitation" then "fires indiscriminately at the crowd," he said. The group had assembled to hear Ms. Giffords at a planned constituency event that day.

"He wheels this direction and that direction firing," Mr. Nanos said. The shooting killed six people and wounded 13 people, including Ms. Giffords, who is in serious condition at a Tucson hospital after a bullet passed through her brain.

more...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 69782.html



Just wanted to ask if anyone knows if it has been verified how Judge John Roll found out that Congresswoman Giffords was holding her event at the Safeway near his church. I've tried searching for a source that his wife said he received a call telling him to go there, but have yet to find it. So what kind of coincidence was this?
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