Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

[Jeff]

I suggest that you may using a misnomer.

This is not a pro-democracy revolution. Instead, this an anti-authoritarianism revolution.

Depends upon what we think of when we think of democracy. Never once, while chanting This is what democracy looks like, have I been seated in a parliament's visitors gallery.

[bks]

Is food available for people? Are basic services and the staples of daily living still in short supply, as reported earlier? If so,wWhichever group or groups can make progress on these fronts will go a long way to establishing themselves as potential good governors.

[23]

Pro-democracy advocates tend to accept and settle for reform. Anti-authoritarianism advocates, on the other hand, wont accept anything less than a revolution.

I don't see reform advocates in Egypt, even though the US prefers to self-servingly see them as such. I see revolution advocates instead.

[WakeUpAndLive]

Pro-democracy advocates tend to accept and settle for reform. Anti-authoritarianism advocates, on the other hand, wont accept anything less than a revolution.

I don't see reform advocates in Egypt, even though the US prefers to self-servingly see them as such. I see revolution advocates instead.

yep

Is food available for people? Are basic services and the staples of daily living still in short supply, as reported earlier? If so,wWhichever group or groups can make progress on these fronts will go a long way to establishing themselves as potential good governors.

Over the weekend I thought it would be great to set up a website to take donations for food drops...I can imagine getting anything in/out of Egypt right now is near impossible though. I agree though, the group that can provide for these people (if they don't take to providing for themselves) will have the best chance of becoming the popular vote.

[nathan28]

Pro-democracy advocates tend to accept and settle for reform. Anti-authoritarianism advocates, on the other hand, wont accept anything less than a revolution.

you should try broadening your concept of democracy beyond representative democracy, it's pretty amazing, you can talk about anarcho-syndicalism on CNN and America will nod in approval

[vanlose kid]

BTW Has anyone used the term "open source [society]" before?

No State, Joe. No World Order for me.

*

Open source society is a better buzzword I agree.

I'm looking for a term tho, cos what i seem to "see" in Egypt is people fulfilling the roles of government while trying to oust their govt, and thats an awesome thing to see. It kind of defeats the whole reality tunnel that someone needs to be "in charge".

***

...

i think open source society is more precise in descriptive terms, also. but i'm pretty biased so what do i know, right?

anyway, re the second part of your post, and some of the other comments on here, what the people of Egypt have shown in the past few days is that no state is necessary for society.

i was working on a longer post for the left libertarian thread i started (have kind of given up on it now though) and i was thinking about the state as an entity and how many people seem fascinated with what i've always viewed since i was a kid with more than a little distaste.

i mean, i'm impressed with the community organisation shown here, even when it comes to protecting the Nat Museum, but i have to say i had absolutely no problem if that edifice for the preservation and glorification of fascism burned to the ground entirely. i for one wouldn't miss it at all.

let me explain that, i hate, always have, these monuments to tyranny that exist and are made so much of in the world, expecially because it's never mentioned that they are the product of of the grossest forms of tyranny. i'm thinking about the pyramids in egypt, SAmerica, wherever, the "Great" Wall of China, all this stuff. they're like dust to me. they stink. they make my blood curdle.

i sometime imagine the blackfellas, for instance, as people who had it up to here with Caesars and Pharoahs and just up and left. and kept their dissent intact. they never even thought of building such edifices. it was anathema.

and it should be. no human society has need of these things. that's part of the reason why the history of little people is so scarce and neglected. but it's also proof of the life of the little people. the sense. the strength.

because, again and again, thoughout history, it's the little people who go on when the empires and tyrants fall. always.

the need for a state is the tyrant's salespitch. it's in Hobbes, in Locke, in Plato, in all the books and tracts of the lickspittles. it's academic consensus. it's the meat of tourist brochures. and it makes me sick.

the only NWO worth fighting for is the No World Order.

end rant.

*

edit to add an anecdote:

once, it is said, Alexander the Great, after having conquered most of the known world and having a love for philosophers, went down to visit Diogenes in his barrelhome and said to him: Diogenes, it is i, Alexander, ruler of the known world and a lover of philosophy, if there is anything i might grant you you need only ask me!"

and Diogenes looked up at him and said: "Buddy, you mind stepping aside a little? you're blocking the sun here."

*

[WakeUpAndLive]

anyway, re the second part of your post, and some of the other comments on here, what the people of Egypt have shown in the past few days is that no state is necessary for society.

Not to dissect your post deliberately, but it fits the answers best to do so. Unfortunately this event DOES NOT show no state is necessary, but it does hint that as human beings we have the cognitive ability to set up working systems within a community to benefit the people. Until we see how it works in the larger scale it is hard to say, but I do feel that it is laying the ground for such thought to be more common and accepted.

i mean, i'm impressed with the community organisation shown here, even when it comes to protecting the Nat Museum, but i have to say i had absolutely no problem if that edifice for the preservation and glorification of fascism burned to the ground entirely. i for one wouldn't miss it at all.

I am as well. When I read some of these stories it is just awesome that a country has banded together like this. A lot of different viewpoints are echoing the same chants, such a great day! GO EGYPT!

let me explain that, i hate, always have, these monuments to tyranny that exist and are made so much of in the world, expecially because it's never mentioned that they are the product of of the grossest forms of tyranny. i'm thinking about the pyramids in egypt, SAmerica, wherever, the "Great" Wall of China, all this stuff. they're like dust to me. they stink. they make my blood curdle.

Why we idolize material structures in the first place strikes me as odd, such as the fascination with tall buildings/skylines. It seems like we idolize even more these ancient structures that were built on the backs of thousands of slave laborers. Can't help to think that this metaphysically represents the situation in the world today.

the only NWO worth fighting for is the No World Order.

end rant.

*

edit to add an anecdote:

once, it is said, Alexander the Great, after having conquered most of the known world and having a love for philosophers, went down to visit Diogenes in his barrelhome and said to him: Diogenes, it is i, Alexander, ruler of the known world and a lover of philosophy, if there is anything i might grant you you need only ask me!"

and Diogenes looked up at him and said: "Buddy, you mind stepping aside a little? you're blocking the sun here."

*

Love the finishing quote, sums it up nicely....everything we need is given to us by this planet, not by the people who think they rule it.

[vanlose kid]

anyway, re the second part of your post, and some of the other comments on here, what the people of Egypt have shown in the past few days is that no state is necessary for society.

Not to dissect your post deliberately, but it fits the answers best to do so. Unfortunately this event DOES NOT show no state is necessary, but it does hint that as human beings we have the cognitive ability to set up working systems within a community to benefit the people. Until we see how it works in the larger scale it is hard to say, but I do feel that it is laying the ground for such thought to be more common and accepted.

...

maybe i wasn't being clear. i was trying to draw a distinction.

the state is not necessary for the existence of a society, it is, however, necessary for the control of society.

the necessity i'm referring to is logical necessity. it's the outcome and premise of a philosophical argument as old as human history. that's why i referenced some of the better known promulgators.

in Hobbes for instance the state is Leviathan, i.e. the necessary beast.

In the book, which was written during the English Civil War, Thomas Hobbes argues for a social contract and rule by an absolute sovereign. Hobbes wrote that chaos or civil war — situations identified with a state of nature and the famous motto Bellum omnium contra omnes ("the war of all against all") — could only be averted by strong central government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(book)

The title page of Thomas Hobbes's Leviathan, or The Matter, Form, and Power of a Commonwealth Ecclesiastical and Civil (1651), with its famous engraving by French artist Abraham Bosse (see NAEL 8, 1.1596). Written in Paris during Hobbes's residence there (1640–51) and published in London, the book argues Hobbes's theory of absolute sovereignty: the sovereign power (which may be a single monarch or some other form) is constituted by compact of all residents of the nation who, once they have transferred all power to the sovereign power and incorporated themselves within him or them have no right of rebellion against or resistance to that sole, indivisible, and absolute authority. The engraving illustrates Hobbes's theory. It presents the upper half of a man who wears an imperial crown and carries a sword and a bishop's crosier, indicating his sole exercise of both civil and ecclesiastical power. His body is made up of innumerable men in the act of incorporating themselves in the person of the sovereign; most of them wear the garb of gentlemen (cloak and tall hat), but a few wear overalls or clerical garb. The Latin inscription reads Non Est potestas Super Terram quae Comparetur ei Job 41:24 [There is no power on earth which can be compared to him]. Leviathan wields his power over a walled city and the surrounding countryside, within which stands, very prominently, a church, again symbolizing his power over all regions and institutions of the nation. On the left side of the title (under Leviathan's sword) are scenes and symbols of his absolute power over the state and all its institutions, military might, and orders of men: a castle, a coronet, a cannon, sundry weapons, trophies, and flags, and a scene of battle. Paralleling these on the right side, under the crosier, are scenes and symbols of his absolute power over the church and all its institutions and personages: a church, a bishop's miter, a thunderbolt signifying excommunication, the weapons of logic used in discussing ecclesiastical issues, and a scene of disputation in the schools of theology.

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/english ... hobbes.htm

*

on edit: not only the events of the past few days but a great part of human history and non-history does in fact show that a state is not necessary for the existence of society.

*

[Jeff]

Amazingly, there was little evidence of hostility towards America although, given the verbal antics of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton these past eight days, there might have well been. One almost felt sorry for Obama. Had he rallied to the kind of democracy he preached here in Cairo six months after his investiture, had he called for the departure of this third-rate dictator a few days ago, the crowds would have been carrying US as well as Egyptian flags, and Washington would have done the impossible: it would have transformed the now familiar hatred of America (Afghanistan, Iraq, the "war on terror", etc) into the more benign relationship which the US enjoyed in the balmy 1920s and 1930s and, indeed, despite its support for the creation of Israel, into the warmth that existed between Arab and American into the 1960s.

But no. All this was squandered in just seven days of weakness and cowardice in Washington – a gutlessness so at odds with the courage of the millions of Egyptians who tried to do what we in the West always demanded of them: to turn their dust-bowl dictatorships into democracies. They supported democracy. We supported "stability", "moderation", "restraint", "firm" leadership (Saddam Hussein-lite) soft "reform" and obedient Muslims.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 01504.html

[vanlose kid]

Al Jazeera might get shut down, but thank god Fox News is all over this story:

missed that first time around. had to do a double take.

*

[vanlose kid]

Amazingly, there was little evidence of hostility towards America although, given the verbal antics of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton these past eight days, there might have well been. One almost felt sorry for Obama. Had he rallied to the kind of democracy he preached here in Cairo six months after his investiture, had he called for the departure of this third-rate dictator a few days ago, the crowds would have been carrying US as well as Egyptian flags, and Washington would have done the impossible: it would have transformed the now familiar hatred of America (Afghanistan, Iraq, the "war on terror", etc) into the more benign relationship which the US enjoyed in the balmy 1920s and 1930s and, indeed, despite its support for the creation of Israel, into the warmth that existed between Arab and American into the 1960s.

But no. All this was squandered in just seven days of weakness and cowardice in Washington – a gutlessness so at odds with the courage of the millions of Egyptians who tried to do what we in the West always demanded of them: to turn their dust-bowl dictatorships into democracies. They supported democracy. We supported "stability", "moderation", "restraint", "firm" leadership (Saddam Hussein-lite) soft "reform" and obedient Muslims.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 01504.html

good read. thanks.

funny, just noticed how the AJ screen captures i've posted throughout the thread have disappeared.

*

[vanlose kid]

Mubarak Says Egyptians Have to Choose Between "Chaos" and Him ... Then Sends In His Thugs to Stir Up Chaos
Submitted by George Washington on 02/01/2011 18:20 -0500


In order to justify staying in power until elections are held in September, President Mubarak said on tv that the people had to choose between him and "chaos".

As NBC notes:

President Hosni Mubarak announced late Tuesday that he would not run for another term in office, but whether Egyptians would allow him to remain in office until elections in the fall was uncertain.


In a 5-minunte pre-recorded televised address to Egypt that was translated into English, Mubarak said it had never been his intention to run for re-election in September.



***

Mubarak said the protests that erupted Jan. 25 "force us to choose between stability and chaos."

Soon after Mubarak's speech was broadcast, clashes broke out between pro- and anti-Mubarak forces in Alexandria.

Reports on the ground say that the pro-Mubarak protesters tried to break into the peaceful protest to start a riot, chanting "We want Mubarak!".

But the anti-Mubarak protesters did not take the bait.

The army broke up the clash and ensured peace by firing a couple of shots into the air above everyone's head.

As Al Jazeera blogs:

Clashes between anti-government and pro-Mubarak protesters in Alexandria. Shots are fired in the air.

Once again, thanks to President Mubarak for educating the world about agents provocateur and false flag shenanigans.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/mubara ... stir-chaos

*

edit: some of the comments:

by Convolved Man
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 18:35
#925658

Every one expecting a George Costanza "I'm outa here" moment, instead got the quintessential Cool Hand Luke moment:

"What we got here is... failure to communicate."

...

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by falak pema
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 18:58
#925714

De Gaulle said the same thing during the May 1968 Paris riots : "après moi le déluge!"

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by mynhair
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 19:09
#925744

Was there for those in '68. 3 guys to tip over those cheap Citroens.

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by YHC-FTSE
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 19:03
#925725

Saw the same shenanigans in Cairo too - quite a coincidence in timing. A bunch on motorcycles (I suppose they hoped for a quick getaway) hooting and shouting pro-Mubarak slogans and when nobody took the bait, running off into the night. My estimation of the average Egyptian just shot up a few notches. Admirable.

...

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by andybev01
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 19:13
#925758

So thaaaaat's where their police got to...

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by andybev01
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 19:11
#925749

*snif*

"If I can't have you, NOBODY CAN!"

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by palmereldritch
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 19:14
#925760

There's no chaos like controlled chaos.

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by Zero Govt
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:18
#925915

there's no chaos like Govt chaos,

and it only gets better after Egypt

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by WTF2
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 19:15
#925764

Mubarak is long commodities and needs time to get them out of Egypt...

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by Dr. Gonzo
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 19:25
#925785

If we loose Egypt as a vassal state will we have to take the pyramid of our dollar?

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by Milestones
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 21:15
#926030

hahaha-great comment! Milestones

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by UncleFurker
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 19:43
#925829


All taken from Mexican President Porfirio Diaz's methodology handbook...

http://www.archive.org/details/barbarou ... 00turnuoft

Recommended reading - parallels found to the current bank practice of handing out free credit cards to people with no means to repay.


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by Zero Govt
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 19:52
#925854

"Mubarak Says Egyptians Have to Choose Between "Chaos" and Him ... Then Sends In His Thugs to Stir Up Chaos"

Classic

You wouldn't get that headline on the front of The Times now would ya!

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by nmewn
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:13
#925903

LOL.

Brian Williams had a nice fantasy while masturbating;

"Obama’s Cairo speech is in the DNA of the Egyptian revolt"

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by spekulatn
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:40
#925967


LOL.

Brian Williams had a nice fantasy while masturbating;

"Obama’s Cairo speech is in the DNA of the Egyptian revolt"




Well said.

Its quite long but worth a read,


http://www.americanthinker.com/printpag ... _revo.html

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by Rastadamus
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:03
#925880

Babylon is falling... That whore who sitteth upon the Nile waters...



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by Rastadamus
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:03
#925881

Babylon is falling... That whore who sitteth upon the Nile waters...



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by Spastica Rex
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:10
#925896

Uhmm, I think Babylon was on the Euphrates; a little East of the Nile.

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by nmewn
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:16
#925907

A testament to government education...LOL.

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by Milestones
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 21:20
#926036

Wit abounds to-nite!! Milestones

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by ReeferMac
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:23
#925924

Works in the Graphics Dept. of Fox News

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by snowball777
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:34
#925951

Apparently the bitch sits on many waters...

Jeremiah 51:13, Revelation 17:1

...

...

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by chump666
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 20:57
#925999

Murbarak doesn't exit quick, I'll bet some nut doesn some bad shit in the Suez canal...y'know blows a f****** pipeline up or somthing.

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by CustomersMan
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 21:05
#926013

The regime could pull a false flag event and blame the opposition,...and then call for international help to destroy the protest movement.



Just thinking, desperate people do desperate things. You can't count on them for fair dealing, especially with you know who next door.

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by Jim in MN
on Tue, 02/01/2011 - 21:17
#926033

Seems like the general strike/sit down is the tactic to, er, run with.

Everything stops....until he goes.

*

[Joe Hillshoist]

i was working on a longer post for the left libertarian thread i started (have kind of given up on it now though) and i was thinking about the state as an entity and how many people seem fascinated with what i've always viewed since i was a kid with more than a little distaste.

Thats why i called that blog coldest monster. It refers to Nietzsche describing "the state" that way.

Which leads to the state as an entity/egregore .

These days I kind of look at it from a "magical" perspective. What does it feed on and how do you control it. Can you actually "put it down" etc. Thats where I eventually want to go with that blog.

I'm a bit conflicted these days, cos in Australia the state ain't that bad, really. for all its flaws it does some things reasonably well.

I didn't really comment on that thread cos I was too busy reading actually, but keep it going I reckon. Its a good thing.

[vanlose kid]

^^

you might like this then:



from here:

http://coldestmonster.com/2011/01/justi ... wer-part1/

*

edit to fix link.

*

[wintler2]

Not since the Neo-Cons were riding high have I seen such absolute and unquestioning faith in the power of democracy to transform the arab world.

It's worth remembering that Egypt's current military government is the result of a CIA-backed effort to overthrow a longstanding and stable (albeit unpopular) monarchy in 1952. Then, as now, the idea was that democracy would surely flourish once the autocrat was removed - that's what the vast majority of the Egyptian people wanted, after all. That's how we ended up with Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak. That's how we ended up with Khaddafi in Libya, and with the military junta in Iraq - all came to power as the result of pro-democracy revolutions.

Why does anyone think this one would be different?

You think they should stop trying because they haven't got there yet? Armchair cynicism is easy, if you have a [safe, privelidged] armchair.