Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:49 am

I agree. But the law is dry.

The closest I got with this was my application for asylum in Canada, I regret to say that the government legal rep claimed that my participation (and I did not kill...) is intentional for his purposes (war crimes) and I was assisting crimes of state. In fact, I think politically there was a wide consensus around the issue of seeing an Israeli MK slave (of the USA, which is the gist of it I think), as "willing actor" even with the knowledge that this was torture from young age PLUS it was far from killing someone but mostly being raped here and there in variuos larger schemes (these are political decisions so this is going to be handled under international human rights law and not local law, usually, but not always ofcourse). The fact was and is, that it is "enlightened" circles that do the obscuring, in order to gain points against Israel and the USA (which I didnt think made any sense, yet that's arguably a political call). If your case comes up in the context of international tribunal to examine the USA gov crimes and torture, you might find yourself in the side of the...accused, no matter what evidence you have that YOU , PW, personally was a victim of same.

Therefore, it appears that only political considerations will lead to examining this affair as is, and those political circumstances may not be what we would wish for (for instance, Israeli right wingers bringing it apropos pollard case to gain leverage in their settlement projects and so forth.). c'est la vie. Especially when one deals with the strongest country in the world for now.

However, I think you over there have the key, and should make this a local case of gov abuse. That will be the best locus, IMHO, for justice to happen. You have the tools, the law, and the administration most favorable for that to happen again, as was in the 70's and the 90's.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:50 am

deleted, double posting
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby Wilbur Whatley » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:07 am

This thread is bullshit from start to finish, especially Jeff's comment that Sirhan didn't kill RFK. There were many close eye witnesses. There is no doubt whatsoever.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby Project Willow » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:19 am

hava1 wrote:However, I think you over there have the key, and should make this a local case of gov abuse. That will be the best locus, IMHO, for justice to happen. You have the tools, the law, and the administration most favorable for that to happen again, as was in the 70's and the 90's.


I wish that were so, but our institutions here are infiltrated by perps, and the public, well, they don't have a clue or give a damn. I don't even want to imagine what less nuanced thinking would do with the MC milieu, we'd all end up in prison.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:20 am

Wilbur Whatley wrote:This thread is bullshit from start to finish, especially Jeff's comment that Sirhan didn't kill RFK. There were many close eye witnesses. There is no doubt whatsoever.


All of whom say Sirhan standing at least multiple feet from RFK, whereas the fatal shot was fired from no more than three inches behind the ear. Behind, the direction in which Sirhan wasn't. The man in that position, at that distance, who had been hanging onto RFK ever since he came out the hall was the man whose clip-on tie can be seen in RFKs hand in the photos of his corpse, Thane Eugene Cesar. He then straight away got rid of his gun, later lying to police about when he'd sold it.

Mind you, if you don't believe JFK was grassy knolled or that 9/11 was a CD job then this physical evidence is really no more persuasive. I'm surprised to see Jeff assume this position, he's made it quite clear he thinks it's mostly irrelevant whether 9/11 was CD and that energies can be better spent on more parapolitical matters, like what was going on in Venice and Oklahoma and so forth. Then again I suppose there's a clearly innocent man in jail in this case, whereas 9/11 and JFK have no surviving patsies.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:59 am

I dont think prison is imminent :), but I do question the political wisdom of alligning that issue with this board's larger agenda. I think there's an implicit trade off that you are agreeing to, maybe without making conscious decision. The constant "needling" and almost raising the issue, in tade off for foreign interests (as legit as they are) is a form of "re-selling" yourself, isnt it ?
The trade off of a whistle blower from the evil empire, in the way it is constructed here (with the constant caveats not to actually make a case, clear and loud), is useful for implied collective bargaining of groups that have an issue with the USA's various defense agencies.

We all have a long life struggle to respect ourselves enough and not to make ourselves into an object of other's interests. Sometimes we trade validation for real achievements (freedom, dignity, money).

The canadian treatment (or IMHO any other forum that will have a chance to needle the big empire) reflects a sacrifice, but the sacrifice doesnt really bring a change, for those who deserve it, rather various pirates make a gain.

well...war does wreak havoc in "nuanced thinking"

Project Willow wrote:
hava1 wrote:However, I think you over there have the key, and should make this a local case of gov abuse. That will be the best locus, IMHO, for justice to happen. You have the tools, the law, and the administration most favorable for that to happen again, as was in the 70's and the 90's.


I wish that were so, but our institutions here are infiltrated by perps, and the public, well, they don't have a clue or give a damn. I don't even want to imagine what less nuanced thinking would do with the MC milieu, we'd all end up in prison.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby 82_28 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:05 am

Wilbur Whatley wrote:This thread is bullshit from start to finish, especially Jeff's comment that Sirhan didn't kill RFK. There were many close eye witnesses. There is no doubt whatsoever.


Then fine, fair enough. Question is why, who benefited and then why again. There is no doubt in my mind that there is the absolute possibility Sirhan did not pull the trigger. And if he did who or "what" was triggering him? I believe some of us have gone over some of our thoughts on the matter of wholesale brainwashing in and of media and just plain gettin' a job in the mil'tary. Bobby Kennedy was not fucking targeted by some naturalized middle eastern motherfucker with a bone to pick. He was assassinated by forces who knew what the fuck they were doing with layers upon layers of deniability. Fuck, they're sheltered by layers of not having to deny shit before they even have to deny anything. The power of the laugh, the guffaw, the snicker, the "how could you?".

If I, 82_28, believe myself and all those around me at all times to be brainwashed as it is, then yes, this motherfucker was brainwashed too. To which degree we do not know. I mean fuck, was Bobby brainwashed himself? Of course he was. You ever delivered pizza to a débutante social? Well do it. You'll see what I fucking mean. Everyone is brainwashed. This existence is a hallucination based upon a fleeting power and status of media control.

A human being with power and intrigue and charisma for those olden days was murdered for a reason, not "for the country" by some Palestinian with a double name. Look at your language, the language of now and the language of time's context peeps! You learn more out of less when you extrapolate the possible contexts. Jesus. Jeff ain't wrong at all, he's exactly right by being exactly wrong.

At least he and some of us are noticing for christ's sake.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby Project Willow » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:53 pm

Interesting points Hava. I think the worst thing I do, as a first person witness, is engage in viewing and speaking about the atrocities in the third person. It carries an inherent self betrayal, but I'm so expert at self betrayal, what with all the training and everything. Maybe it's time to re-examine these impulses.

I don't think it's impossible to find allies though, it just looks that way, a lot.

sw - your sharing is invaluable, thank you.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby chump » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:05 pm

This may have been posted, but I didn't know Dana Rohrabacher was at the Ambassador Hotel :o

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2 ... _to_so.php

Rohrabacher went in drag to solve already solved RFK assassination?By R. Scott Moxley, Tue., Sep. 30 2008 @ 1:30PM

While the nation struggles with two wars, financial disasters, devastating hurricanes, regular political sex and ethics scandals, ridiculously priced gas and global warming, Congressman Dana Rohrabacher (R-Huntington Beach) has been busy attempting to singlehandedly solve the already solved 1968 assassination of Senator Robert F. Kennedy.

According to a September 25, 2008, Pasadena Weekly article by Carl Kozlowski, Rohrabacher believes that the Los Angeles Police Department has for 40 years hidden the fact that Sirhan Sirhan, the lone man convicted of shooting Kennedy, worked as part of a "real conspiracy" of Arabs.

Why? Well, Rohrabacher--a rabid right-wing Republican who has bragged to me and other reporters about his, uh, longtime personal ties to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)--claims he was in the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles for a party at the same time Kennedy was murdered in the kitchen.

Ponder that admission for a moment and then consider the congressman's incredible tale.

"While I was walking into that party, somebody ran past me and bounced off me," he told Kozlowski. "The guy was wrestled to the floor in front on me by either security guards of police and he was hauled out right in front of me . . . The guy looked exactly like Sirhan Sirhan, a young Arab-looking guy. Was the guy I saw Sirhan or somebody else? Either way, that's a big deal because nowhere does it ever mention another Arab being there that night, nor does it mention that he was under police custody."

In early 2007--39 years after the killing and right around the time that he blamed global warming on dinosaur flatulence, Rohrabacher decided to solve his murder mystery for "the Kennedy family."

Anyone familiar with Rohrabacher knows this story is now headed for unadulterated, wacky bliss.

At some point, Sirhan sent Summer Reese, one of his lawyers, a letter telling her that "a Diana was coming to see him."

Reese told Kozlowski, "Sirhan didn't know it was the congressman because his visitor was presented as a woman."

Rohrabacher. Undercover. In drag. Using the name Diana?

Perhaps this sheds light on why ex-Congressman Bob Dornan (R-Garden Grove) liked to call Rohrabacher "a fruitcake."

What were you doing at Corcoran State Prison in California, Diana/Dana?

"I went to see [Sirhan] specifically because I believe he didn't act alone and that the full story of Bobby Kennedy's assassination has not been known," he said. "I would like Sirhan Sirhan to finally, at long last, level with the Kennedy family and the American people, whether to clear his soul as part of his Christian beliefs or try to set the record straight."

Reese told the Pasadena Weekly that once the congressman got face to face with Sirhan (was it for the--cue eerie organ music here--second time?), Rohrabacher "repeatedly badgered him to admit he did the killing."

But Diana/Dana, why did you need him to admit to a crime he'd been convicted of four decades ago?

An answer might be found in this fact: In the 1990s, Rohrabacher was the lone congressman to shill for the Taliban, claiming that the "liberal media" had unfairly portrayed the group as anti-woman and uncivilized while they harbored Osama Bin Laden and the men in Afghanistan who plotted the 9-11 attacks.

-- R. Scott Moxley / OC Weekly


also:
http://www.pasadenaweekly.com/cms/story ... hans/6414/
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby StarmanSkye » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:38 pm

Good discussion. Just to add, from everything I've read and seen, I too concur Sirhan was basically the designated fall-guy who at most probably only squeezed the trigger of his gun, most likely NOT firing any fatal shots and most certainly NOT responsible for the near-contact shot behind RFK's ear (which Cesar was in prime position for).

Interesting to see the belated, slow reporting of Sirhan's 'brainwashed' defense plea intention, perhaps because NOT reporting it in MSM would be too blatant proof of cover-up conspiracy?

As was the near-total non-coverage of the MLK civil trial finding w/ abundant evidence of top-level conspiracy by military, CIA, FBI and 'others'.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby MinM » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:55 pm

Jeff wrote:I don't believe Sirhan killed anyone. I do believe he was brainwashed.

Exactly right. Michael Wayne seems to have been setup as a plan b brainwashed patsy too.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby 82_28 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:21 am

I just found this from my "blog hobby" I've mentioned elsewhere. But fills in some possible forgotten gaps.

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There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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”Lots of Cream, Lots of Sugar”

Postby MinM » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:17 pm

***
A couple of related podcasts:

Show #510
Original airdate: Jan 20, 2011
Guests: Jim DiEugenio
Topics: JFK Research

Play Part One Interview - Jim DiEugenio

# View Robert Shetterly’s Essay: The Necessary Embrace of Conspiracy
# Congratulations to all that took part in the petition that successfully lead to the American cancelation of the mini -series, The Kennedys.
# listener’s email questions from around the Globe !
# How does Robert Shetterly’s essay, The Necessary Embrace of Conspiracy, show conspiracy is part of the political system?
# Was Oswald ever a true suspect in the attempted assassination of General Walker? Jim answers with key points.
# Interesting film found by author Jim Hougan shows General Walker’s house was being filmed in the summer of ’63. Why?
# Len mentions 50th Anniversary of JFK’s inaugural speech.Watch Speech on Youtube
# Why has Wikipedia cofounder has started a new alternative online source of information based on facts & truth at http://www.citizendium.org
# Why has been Mary Farrell been coined the “Dragon Lady” and thought to be a CIA operative while using the Mary Farrell Foundation as a cover?
# After working in the JFK area for decades how is it that she never gave an opinion about what she thought had happened in regards to the assassination?
# Why was James McCord’s initial lawyer, Gerald Alch, dismissed after being hired to defend James during the Watergate trials?
# Why does John Hankey slam Jim DiEugenio, calling him a CIA agent
# Why did Buck Compton order the destruction of the pantry doors from RFK’s assassination at the Ambassador Hotel?
# Why were many important leads in the RFK case marked “bad, do not follow”?
# With 17 witnesses of the “Lady in the Polka Dot Dress” in the pantry kitchen, why didn’t the LAPD search for her?
# Was Sirhan Sirhan hypnotized by the code words, ”Lots of Cream, Lots of Sugar”?
# Why was Sandy Serrano belittled by the LAPD in their attempt to break & confuse her in her testimony regarding the “Lady in the Polka Dot Dress”?

http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black510a.mp3

***

Also about a decade old interview with Scott Enyart (now on mp3 :thumbsup001: ) :

Show #520
Original airdate: March 30, 2011
Guest: Scott Enyart
Topics: RFK Assassination Research

Play Part One Interview - Scott Enyart
# Interview with Len Osanic and Anita Langley July 17 2000
# Scott was a photographer in the Ambassador hotel where RFK was shot
# Details a 20 - 30 year account to retrieve his photos
# Approx 20 photos taken at the time of the shooting
# LAPD takes all evidence and hold for 20 years
# A jury awarded the photographer $450,600 in damages and compensation
# City appeals the award for lost film that costs millions?.
# 2 million lawsuit filed against the city and state on Aug. 14, 1989.

http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black520a.mp3

Play Part Two Interview - Scott Enyart

# City appeals an award of 500K for lost film.
# Louis "Skip" Miller, an attorney for the city,
# Skip Miller contacts jury member... juror miscontduct now requires second trial.

http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black520b.mp3

Play Part Three Interview - Scott Enyart

# Audio of seven weeks of court archived...
# LAPD found three guns in the Pantry
# Special Unit Senator...
# Sirhan has no recollection of the shooting
# Thane Eugene Cesar
# Coroner threatened not to testify at first trial
# Powder burns on RFK indicate shot from 1 inch distance -Thomas Noguchi
# Records gone missing...

http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black520c.mp3
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby The Consul » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:25 pm

hava1 wrote:nobody can be brainwashed into killing, what will happen to personal accountability, and where does this end ? remember, fascism means nobody assumes responsibility, its always "they made me do it".


There are, around the world today, several thousand people trying their best to kill each other. It wasn't their idea.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:47 pm

thanks
the discussion was a bit more elaborate than my final conclusion (which goes to "legal accountability in cases of individual manslaughter"). The assertion I refuted was that MK Ultra experiments produced killers who were programmed for that purpose. The cited experiments to prove it, only show that ANY individual under certain hypnosis was shown to have easily picked a gun and shot someone by command. So, if anyone could be so ordered, the MK context is irrelevant, otherwise, I know, and agree, that we are easily convinced by others to hate and destroy. BUt was not the point of discussion.

Beatrice tells Lucifer that "he made Dante sin", but Lucifer insists that he usually does not need to interfere :). that's philosophy.
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