12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby Nordic » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:10 am

freemason9 wrote:
Nordic wrote:How to profit from inflation, and even hyperinflation (which I don't think should be considered the same thing).

Easy, really. Put all your money into gold, other precious metals, real estate (good stuff, like farmland with good water).

Then short the dollar in every way you can with whatever you've got left, or use the leverage of your tangible assets to short the dollar.

Wait for the crash.

Move in and buy everything up. You've got the only real money left, and it's worth more than ever!

Start over, with you and your cronies as Emporers.


no, that won't work because although you can buy more dollars with a set gold amount,

the dollars become worth less [worthless], so it's really just a "store of value."

an ounce of gold is as valuable in the future as it is today,

but it will be a huge liability if anyone knows you have it,

and owning gold could substantially reduce one's life expectancy.



Well, the hyperinflation would cause the economy to crash. Then everybody who doesn't have the real assets stored up has to sell what they do have in order to get by. So at the end of the day you can buy everything for cheap. And everybody else would have nothing and be happy to be your slave! BWA A HA HAAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Yes, an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold and farmland is farmland. But imagine a situation where those were the only things that had value. Their value would actually increase many-fold (although what could you possibly trade them for at that point??)

And the life expectancy thing? That's where the guns and ammo come in. I forgot about those. Those are another thing that will retain value in a crash.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:14 am

Stephen Morgan wrote:Anyway, at the very least The Animated Series must be considered canonical.


Shit. You're right. I hadn't even thought on the existence of ST:TAS for at least 20 years until this moment you mention it (proving again you're the greater geek) but it's canonical to the original series, without a doubt.

As far as I can see, all of the ST successor TV series, taken together, constitute a separate unified canon, because they're bothering to maintain a continuity between them. But I doubt I've seen even 10 percent of all post-original-series episodes.

The movies are just movies. (As for "Generations," that one never happened at all.) ST XI delivered an essential mercy-killing to the whole Enterprise, erm, sorry, venture. It was a burlesque on the whole thing. There will be two more and that will probably spell the end of the franchise. When you consider that it's soon to be a quarter as long as US history itself... well that's enough already.

As you're big with the quotations, perhaps you could tell me whether the similarity between the name of the Vulcan neck-breaking technique mentioned in TOS Babel and the name of the Romulan intelligence service, come TNG/DS9 era, is ever explained? Anyways, to me its all canon, except Star Trek XI. Obviously the Enterprise continuity errors and so on were explained by the final episode, where it's all explained as a badly written historical recreation done by meat-head Riker in a holodeck. At least that's how I choose to look at it.


See? You win!

.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby compared2what? » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:49 am

Nordic wrote:i see some semantic problems on this thread. namely, that inflation isn't a "big issue" unless it fits the description of "hyperinflation".

that's like saying fascism isn't fascism unless it kills 6 million jews. you know?


Well....The thread title seemed to mandate the distinction, I guess.

But inflation definitely could be a big deal eventually, especially in conjunction with loss-of-entitlements and/or loss-of-job-or-fulltime-work and/or retirement-or-pension-or-life-savings. The thing is that those things are an enormously big deal even without extraordinary inflation. And they're also the things that our elected representatives are presently making noises about doing the wrong thing about.

Since (a) they'd have to spend more money they don't have in order to do the right thing, which would presumably cause more outcry and garment-rending to occur; and (b) inflation is not a presently looming issue, it just seems to me to be kind of self-defeating obligingly to take the cue and focus on it.

All the more so, really, given that if there is inflation but it's not hyperinflation, neither the Fed nor any part of the government can be or will have been the cause of it for the duration of the economic collapse currently underway. There's only really one inflation-creating trick in the monetary-policy bag, and that's lowering interest rates.

They can't do that because, functionally speaking, we've been in zero-bound territory since 2008. You were totally right to say that it was like Japan's "Lost Decade," if that was what you were saying. They were still monetarily zero-bounded, with very low inflation and a limp economy when the tsunami hit. And that was almost a decade after the "Lost Decade."

They did exactly what we're doing now. So the country never really got back in business. Some of the companies did. But the country didn't. You need to deficit-spend hand-over-fist to get out of a hole as deep as the one we're in. AFAIK, there's not even another proven or tested option. That's it. Some risk of inflation does go with doing it.

But a stone guarantee of a very lengthy period of very widespread impoverishment, underemployment and longterm unemployment goes with not doing it.

I understand that it's comforting to think that if you act wisely and buy gold now you'll be protected, obviously. That'll be a pretty cold comfort unless the federal government starts spending money directly on putting people to work immediately, though. Because if they don't, barring a miracle, it's virturally a mathematical certainty that most (if not all) individual investors of average means who'd started putting every penny they had in gold right now would still probably end up having to sell it before too much time had gone by, simply in order to feed, shelter and clothe themselves and their families.

It's always potentially a logical fallacy (inductive) to assume that the future will be like the past, because who the fuck knows what the future may hold? However, given that the past is the only model available, it would be more illogical just to ignore it. And based on analogous past events, all things being approximately less equal, that's just where we're at: Economic depression/stagnation for most; wealth for the wealthy; very little inflation; but very few people with enough money not to be living very frugally anyway.

In short: Yes, inflation could be a big deal. But it's not foreseeably the A#1 could-be big-deal that's about to take us down right now.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby Nordic » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:05 am

I understand that it's comforting to think that if you act wisely and buy gold now you'll be protected, obviously.


Well. Not so much that, as just trying to save something. Why save dollars? Every day they're worth less and less. By the time I'm retired, a dollar will probably be worth a dime, and that's the optimistic view. I ran into the same thing when I was shopping for life insurance. It almost makes no sense to buy it now, because (as an example) $250,000 ain't gonna be that much assuming I live to be a ripe old age. It almost makes more sense to buy the policies that are only good for a few years, then buy a new one (can't remember what those are called).

If the shit really hits the fan, no, most of us aren't protected one bit. Hell, I've already had to sell the precious metals that I already had. All of them. It sucked. Yes, I "made money", but so what?

I guess then it's off to the farm, preparing to do some serious backbreaking labour in order to just maybe stay alive. And that makes me one of the lucky ones, if that's the case.

Provided my Dad hasn't sold the farm by then. :)
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby Stephen Morgan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:51 am

JackRiddler wrote:You deserve one DING!

This was a big thought for me today: All the examples of hyperinflation I can think of involved speculative attacks from without by speculators with monetarist religion who either think a nation's too far into debt or hate its policies. It's not an internal strategy for plunder. It's a means of punishing (and profiting from) countries perceived to have failed or to be on an undesirable course.


I think that's a false distinction between external and internal. Distinctions such as national borders only apply to the likes of us, not the sort of people who can devalue national currencies just out of spite or greed.

JackRiddler wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:Anyway, at the very least The Animated Series must be considered canonical.


Shit. You're right. I hadn't even thought on the existence of ST:TAS for at least 20 years until this moment you mention it (proving again you're the greater geek) but it's canonical to the original series, without a doubt.


Hah! They always forget the Animated Series. I downloaded the whole thing by torrent. Surprisingly good, although obviously the animation isn't up to much. Treat it like a radio play, especially as they have all those original cast voices.

As far as I can see, all of the ST successor TV series, taken together, constitute a separate unified canon, because they're bothering to maintain a continuity between them. But I doubt I've seen even 10 percent of all post-original-series episodes.


I think I've seen all of them, so I think I can say that maintaining continuity doesn't seem to be something they bother too much about. I fact, I was surprised to look back at TOS and find that the Trouble with Tribbles has its premise based entirely on the earlier episode with the Organians. Generally later series of Star Trek are like the Simpsons, end of the episode and you can just forget it all. Even with Voyager, where the entire idea was to accumulate tech to get home.

Of course they're all just entertainment, there's no epic story arc like in Babylon 5.

The movies are just movies. (As for "Generations," that one never happened at all.)


Generations wasn't all that good, of course, I'd put it in the bottom three of the ten movies certainly, but it wasn't Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, which makes it not the worst.

ST XI delivered an essential mercy-killing to the whole Enterprise, erm, sorry, venture. It was a burlesque on the whole thing. There will be two more and that will probably spell the end of the franchise. When you consider that it's soon to be a quarter as long as US history itself... well that's enough already.


Well, US history isn't very long. You don't see anyone suggesting that we give up on opera because it's outlasted the Austro-Hungarian Empire, do you?

As you're big with the quotations, perhaps you could tell me whether the similarity between the name of the Vulcan neck-breaking technique mentioned in TOS Babel and the name of the Romulan intelligence service, come TNG/DS9 era, is ever explained? Anyways, to me its all canon, except Star Trek XI. Obviously the Enterprise continuity errors and so on were explained by the final episode, where it's all explained as a badly written historical recreation done by meat-head Riker in a holodeck. At least that's how I choose to look at it.


See? You win!


Just be glad I didn't give you my theory about why the Ent-D doesn't need toilets.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby anothershamus » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:19 pm

April 4 2011: Credit Bubbles Always End The Same Way

....Pondering all that, how do you feel about that US dollar collapse? US hyperinflation, anyone? If I were to go for a metaphor, I'd say: this is not the Olympics. If anything, and I don't mean to insult anyone here, it's the Special Olympics; there are no healthy economies left, certainly not in the west. John Lennon said a long time ago: "One thing you can't hide, is when you're crippled inside". That is true for all of our western economies; it's just a question of who goes down first. And we at The Automatic Earth have long said, and are saying it now, that the US will not be that first one.

Which means the US dollar will not be the first currency to fall. Look at CDS spreads on the US vs various EU countries, and you know how the market feels about this. US: very low risk, various EU nations: elevated risk. It may not be rational given overall US national debt, but then, we never said markets are rational....

[And then there is this by Stiglitz]

Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%
by Joseph E. Stiglitz - Vanity Fair

Americans have been watching protests against oppressive regimes that concentrate massive wealth in the hands of an elite few. Yet in our own democracy, 1 percent of the people take nearly a quarter of the nation’s income—an inequality even the wealthy will come to regret.

The Fat And The Furious: The top 1 percent may have the best houses, educations, and lifestyles, but "their fate is bound up with how the other 99 percent live."


It’s no use pretending that what has obviously happened has not in fact happened. The upper 1 percent of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation’s income every year. In terms of wealth rather than income, the top 1 percent control 40 percent. Their lot in life has improved considerably. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent and 33 percent. One response might be to celebrate the ingenuity and drive that brought good fortune to these people, and to contend that a rising tide lifts all boats. That response would be misguided.

While the top 1 percent have seen their incomes rise 18 percent over the past decade, those in the middle have actually seen their incomes fall. For men with only high-school degrees, the decline has been precipitous—12 percent in the last quarter-century alone. All the growth in recent decades—and more—has gone to those at the top. In terms of income equality, America lags behind any country in the old, ossified Europe that President George W. Bush used to deride. Among our closest counterparts are Russia with its oligarchs and Iran. While many of the old centers of inequality in Latin America, such as Brazil, have been striving in recent years, rather successfully, to improve the plight of the poor and reduce gaps in income, America has allowed inequality to grow.

Economists long ago tried to justify the vast inequalities that seemed so troubling in the mid-19th century—inequalities that are but a pale shadow of what we are seeing in America today. The justification they came up with was called "marginal-productivity theory." In a nutshell, this theory associated higher incomes with higher productivity and a greater contribution to society. It is a theory that has always been cherished by the rich. Evidence for its validity, however, remains thin. The corporate executives who helped bring on the recession of the past three years—whose contribution to our society, and to their own companies, has been massively negative—went on to receive large bonuses.

In some cases, companies were so embarrassed about calling such rewards "performance bonuses" that they felt compelled to change the name to "retention bonuses" (even if the only thing being retained was bad performance). Those who have contributed great positive innovations to our society, from the pioneers of genetic understanding to the pioneers of the Information Age, have received a pittance compared with those responsible for the financial innovations that brought our global economy to the brink of ruin.

Some people look at income inequality and shrug their shoulders. So what if this person gains and that person loses? What matters, they argue, is not how the pie is divided but the size of the pie. That argument is fundamentally wrong. An economy in which most citizens are doing worse year after year—an economy like America’s—is not likely to do well over the long haul. There are several reasons for this.

First, growing inequality is the flip side of something else: shrinking opportunity. Whenever we diminish equality of opportunity, it means that we are not using some of our most valuable assets—our people—in the most productive way possible. Second, many of the distortions that lead to inequality—such as those associated with monopoly power and preferential tax treatment for special interests—undermine the efficiency of the economy. This new inequality goes on to create new distortions, undermining efficiency even further. To give just one example, far too many of our most talented young people, seeing the astronomical rewards, have gone into finance rather than into fields that would lead to a more productive and healthy economy.

Third, and perhaps most important, a modern economy requires "collective action"—it needs government to invest in infrastructure, education, and technology. The United States and the world have benefited greatly from government-sponsored research that led to the Internet, to advances in public health, and so on. But America has long suffered from an under-investment in infrastructure (look at the condition of our highways and bridges, our railroads and airports), in basic research, and in education at all levels. Further cutbacks in these areas lie ahead.

None of this should come as a surprise—it is simply what happens when a society’s wealth distribution becomes lopsided. The more divided a society becomes in terms of wealth, the more reluctant the wealthy become to spend money on common needs. The rich don’t need to rely on government for parks or education or medical care or personal security—they can buy all these things for themselves. In the process, they become more distant from ordinary people, losing whatever empathy they may once have had. They also worry about strong government—one that could use its powers to adjust the balance, take some of their wealth, and invest it for the common good. The top 1 percent may complain about the kind of government we have in America, but in truth they like it just fine: too gridlocked to re-distribute, too divided to do anything but lower taxes.

Economists are not sure how to fully explain the growing inequality in America. The ordinary dynamics of supply and demand have certainly played a role: laborsaving technologies have reduced the demand for many "good" middle-class, blue-collar jobs. Globalization has created a worldwide marketplace, pitting expensive unskilled workers in America against cheap unskilled workers overseas. Social changes have also played a role—for instance, the decline of unions, which once represented a third of American workers and now represent about 12 percent.

But one big part of the reason we have so much inequality is that the top 1 percent want it that way. The most obvious example involves tax policy. Lowering tax rates on capital gains, which is how the rich receive a large portion of their income, has given the wealthiest Americans close to a free ride. Monopolies and near monopolies have always been a source of economic power—from John D. Rockefeller at the beginning of the last century to Bill Gates at the end.

Lax enforcement of anti-trust laws, especially during Republican administrations, has been a godsend to the top 1 percent. Much of today’s inequality is due to manipulation of the financial system, enabled by changes in the rules that have been bought and paid for by the financial industry itself—one of its best investments ever. The government lent money to financial institutions at close to 0 percent interest and provided generous bailouts on favorable terms when all else failed. Regulators turned a blind eye to a lack of transparency and to conflicts of interest.

When you look at the sheer volume of wealth controlled by the top 1 percent in this country, it’s tempting to see our growing inequality as a quintessentially American achievement—we started way behind the pack, but now we’re doing inequality on a world-class level. And it looks as if we’ll be building on this achievement for years to come, because what made it possible is self-reinforcing. Wealth begets power, which begets more wealth.

During the savings-and-loan scandal of the 1980s—a scandal whose dimensions, by today’s standards, seem almost quaint—the banker Charles Keating was asked by a congressional committee whether the $1.5 million he had spread among a few key elected officials could actually buy influence. "I certainly hope so," he replied. The Supreme Court, in its recent Citizens United case, has enshrined the right of corporations to buy government, by removing limitations on campaign spending. The personal and the political are today in perfect alignment. Virtually all U.S. senators, and most of the representatives in the House, are members of the top 1 percent when they arrive, are kept in office by money from the top 1 percent, and know that if they serve the top 1 percent well they will be rewarded by the top 1 percent when they leave office.

By and large, the key executive-branch policymakers on trade and economic policy also come from the top 1 percent. When pharmaceutical companies receive a trillion-dollar gift—through legislation prohibiting the government, the largest buyer of drugs, from bargaining over price—it should not come as cause for wonder. It should not make jaws drop that a tax bill cannot emerge from Congress unless big tax cuts are put in place for the wealthy. Given the power of the top 1 percent, this is the way you would expect the system to work.

America’s inequality distorts our society in every conceivable way. There is, for one thing, a well-documented lifestyle effect—people outside the top 1 percent increasingly live beyond their means. Trickle-down economics may be a chimera, but trickle-down behaviorism is very real. Inequality massively distorts our foreign policy. The top 1 percent rarely serve in the military—the reality is that the "all-volunteer" army does not pay enough to attract their sons and daughters, and patriotism goes only so far. Plus, the wealthiest class feels no pinch from higher taxes when the nation goes to war: borrowed money will pay for all that. Foreign policy, by definition, is about the balancing of national interests and national resources. With the top 1 percent in charge, and paying no price, the notion of balance and restraint goes out the window.

There is no limit to the adventures we can undertake; corporations and contractors stand only to gain. The rules of economic globalization are likewise designed to benefit the rich: they encourage competition among countries for business, which drives down taxes on corporations, weakens health and environmental protections, and undermines what used to be viewed as the "core" labor rights, which include the right to collective bargaining. Imagine what the world might look like if the rules were designed instead to encourage competition among countries for workers. Governments would compete in providing economic security, low taxes on ordinary wage earners, good education, and a clean environment—things workers care about. But the top 1 percent don’t need to care.

Or, more accurately, they think they don’t. Of all the costs imposed on our society by the top 1 percent, perhaps the greatest is this: the erosion of our sense of identity, in which fair play, equality of opportunity, and a sense of community are so important. America has long prided itself on being a fair society, where everyone has an equal chance of getting ahead, but the statistics suggest otherwise: the chances of a poor citizen, or even a middle-class citizen, making it to the top in America are smaller than in many countries of Europe. The cards are stacked against them. It is this sense of an unjust system without opportunity that has given rise to the conflagrations in the Middle East: rising food prices and growing and persistent youth unemployment simply served as kindling.

With youth unemployment in America at around 20 percent (and in some locations, and among some socio-demographic groups, at twice that); with one out of six Americans desiring a full-time job not able to get one; with one out of seven Americans on food stamps (and about the same number suffering from "food insecurity")—given all this, there is ample evidence that something has blocked the vaunted "trickling down" from the top 1 percent to everyone else. All of this is having the predictable effect of creating alienation—voter turnout among those in their 20s in the last election stood at 21 percent, comparable to the unemployment rate.

In recent weeks we have watched people taking to the streets by the millions to protest political, economic, and social conditions in the oppressive societies they inhabit. Governments have been toppled in Egypt and Tunisia. Protests have erupted in Libya, Yemen, and Bahrain. The ruling families elsewhere in the region look on nervously from their air-conditioned penthouses—will they be next? They are right to worry. These are societies where a minuscule fraction of the population—less than 1 percent—controls the lion’s share of the wealth; where wealth is a main determinant of power; where entrenched corruption of one sort or another is a way of life; and where the wealthiest often stand actively in the way of policies that would improve life for people in general.

As we gaze out at the popular fervor in the streets, one question to ask ourselves is this: When will it come to America? In important ways, our own country has become like one of these distant, troubled places.

Alexis de Tocqueville once described what he saw as a chief part of the peculiar genius of American society—something he called "self-interest properly understood." The last two words were the key. Everyone possesses self-interest in a narrow sense: I want what’s good for me right now! Self-interest "properly understood" is different. It means appreciating that paying attention to everyone else’s self-interest—in other words, the common welfare—is in fact a precondition for one’s own ultimate well-being. Tocqueville was not suggesting that there was anything noble or idealistic about this outlook—in fact, he was suggesting the opposite. It was a mark of American pragmatism. Those canny Americans understood a basic fact: looking out for the other guy isn’t just good for the soul—it’s good for business.

The top 1 percent have the best houses, the best educations, the best doctors, and the best lifestyles, but there is one thing that money doesn’t seem to have bought: an understanding that their fate is bound up with how the other 99 percent live. Throughout history, this is something that the top 1 percent eventually do learn. Too late.


http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2011/04/april-4-2011-credit-bubbles-always-end.html
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby vanlose kid » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:23 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:You deserve one DING!

This was a big thought for me today: All the examples of hyperinflation I can think of involved speculative attacks from without by speculators with monetarist religion who either think a nation's too far into debt or hate its policies. It's not an internal strategy for plunder. It's a means of punishing (and profiting from) countries perceived to have failed or to be on an undesirable course.


I think that's a false distinction between external and internal. Distinctions such as national borders only apply to the likes of us, not the sort of people who can devalue national currencies just out of spite or greed.

...


love this cause it's really hard to get across sometimes. same with the distinction between corporations and government. (both Krugman and Hudson, and others of course, still think in these terms. it's how things are sold: left hand puppet right hand puppet.)

cheers.

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:34 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:This was a big thought for me today: All the examples of hyperinflation I can think of involved speculative attacks from without by speculators with monetarist religion who either think a nation's too far into debt or hate its policies. It's not an internal strategy for plunder. It's a means of punishing (and profiting from) countries perceived to have failed or to be on an undesirable course.


I think that's a false distinction between external and internal. Distinctions such as national borders only apply to the likes of us, not the sort of people who can devalue national currencies just out of spite or greed.


Oh yes of course. My thought was that insofar as it is not an undesired phenomenon of mass behavior during a crisis (which it is, also), or the consequence of desperate policy moves made in wartime, but also the witting consequence of planning, then hyperinflation is a tool for punishment, not profit. Obviously it can be profited from, like anything else that changes values, but it's not an end-game or part of a long-range plan. It's a counterattack when certain conditions are met.

I think it's become clear in this discussion that the much-feared into-the-trillions version of Germany and Zimbabwe needs a high proportion of paper money and a non-instantaneous financial crash, and is extremely unlikely to describe any of the disasters to befall the humans in the further march of global or US capitalism; although disasters are certainly coming, some of them unprecedented and unpredictable, others more like standard operating procedure.

Stephen Morgan wrote:
As far as I can see, all of the ST successor TV series, taken together, constitute a separate unified canon, because they're bothering to maintain a continuity between them. But I doubt I've seen even 10 percent of all post-original-series episodes.


I think I've seen all of them, so I think I can say that maintaining continuity doesn't seem to be something they bother too much about. I fact, I was surprised to look back at TOS and find that the Trouble with Tribbles has its premise based entirely on the earlier episode with the Organians. Generally later series of Star Trek are like the Simpsons, end of the episode and you can just forget it all. Even with Voyager, where the entire idea was to accumulate tech to get home.


Agreed, afaik and imho. Generally what I've seen is low-stakes story telling, usually sucks, and generally doesn't continue, and shouldn't even be called a canon. But the later series wittingly exist in a common universe, whereas TOS was done without paying mind to (or even conceiving of, give the ratings) to possible spin-offs. The later series seem to move between extended camp tribute to the original, or an attempt to be more "serious" and scientific that is mostly posed.

Well, US history isn't very long. You don't see anyone suggesting that we give up on opera because it's outlasted the Austro-Hungarian Empire, do you?


No, but while operas are performed for centuries and revived in new and contemporary form, I didn't notice that generations of writers at Hollywood studios were now pumping out RINGS XI: RETURN OF THE VALKYRIES.

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:18 pm

Question: So.. as has been established, what is needed in order for hyperinflation to occur is lots and lots of paper money floating around. And I think we also know that the Fed has run the printing press at warp speed for years now, buying back their debt themselves, etc. The theory goes that as long as other nations don't start cashing in and the US doesn't have to repatriate the money that is 'out there' that things will be fine. Am I right so far? (seriously, am I?)

.. so .. the question is this: If the Fed can just print money out of nothing can't it also just burn money if floods of it come roaring back from other nations?
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby vanlose kid » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:32 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:Question: So.. as has been established, what is needed in order for hyperinflation to occur is lots and lots of paper money floating around. And I think we also know that the Fed has run the printing press at warp speed for years now, buying back their debt themselves, etc. The theory goes that as long as other nations don't start cashing in and the US doesn't have to repatriate the money that is 'out there' that things will be fine. Am I right so far? (seriously, am I?)

.. so .. the question is this: If the Fed can just print money out of nothing can't it also just burn money if floods of it come roaring back from other nations?


that's a question i've been trying to answer myself.

thing is i don't think the argement about parper/digital money holds entirely.

the amount of paper money within most ecomomies in the world is roughly 3% (of the total money supply). that's notes and coins in circulation [M0]. that's roughly what is necessary for daily transactions.

if the fed, to fund QEs and what not is adding to the 3% (and they are printing, just as the Treasury is printing up, actual not digital, bonds to "sell" to the FED) and adding to it by feeding it into the economy) the amount added will determine the value of the overall amount of paper money in circulation. the more chips in the market place the less value each chip has. in my thinking. digital money doesn't really come into it. -- i may be wrong though.

just a thought. trying to work it out.

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby barracuda » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:42 pm

The Fed is pumping money into the economy by purchasing securities (debt). It can remove money by the opposite maneuver, selling back the debt and simply decommissioning the currency itself, through actual paper burning or account deletion.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:47 pm

barracuda wrote:The Fed is pumping money into the economy by purchasing securities (debt). It can remove money by the opposite maneuver, selling back the debt and simply decommissioning the currency itself, through actual paper burning or account deletion.


Selling back trillions in debt to all those willing buyers?

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby barracuda » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:50 pm

Nobody ever said they weren't going to lose money on the deal. Either way, the result would be deflationary.
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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby vanlose kid » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:57 pm

^^

yep. if they can find buyers. or if they can sell it back to themselves at a profit. -- the magic of money.

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Re: 12 Warning Signs of U.S. Hyperinflation

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:06 pm

I believe that if any real percentage of the money the Fed is creating was to make it into the public sphere that inflation would result. Since that isn't happening I have been assuming that they are just passing piles of currency between themselves at private parties. Perhaps they are having tower-building competitions with elastic-banded wads of thousand dollar bills. whatever they are doing it does not include putting it into the US economy or else I think the price of bread would be upwards of 1000 bucks a loaf by now.

so, since the money being created is for some purpose other than spending in America, what does it really matter how much they print? Why not start using novelty cheques with the infinity sign entered onto the 'amount' line? Give one to Raytheon, one to the government of Saudi Arabia, one to Murdoch...
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