What constitutes Misogyny?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:04 am

WakeUpAndLive wrote:By help us, I mean that misogyny is a two party occurrence. Without a male perpetrator, no misogynistic act can be completed. Until men understand and consciously realize when they are performing a misogynistic act there will be no way to deal with it. What I've gleamed from this thread so far is that the labeling is done by the victim, making this task all the more difficult, maybe impossible (?)


First I take issue that misogyny has to be perpetrated by a male, although it most often is. But this is greater than individual people - this is cultural.

The idea that you've just put forward - that the label 'misogyny' cannot be put on an act by its victims - is ludicrous. Are you waiting for an outside body to come forward in this thread and make a pronouncement? What is the issue you have with people who have experienced it being part of the discussion.

Patient to Nurse: The food in this hospital is terrible.
Nurse to Hospital Management: The Patients need better food.
Hospital Manager: Nurse says the patients want better food, who can I go to with this? I know - the Board!
Hospital Board Member: "How can we determine what the patients don't like?"
Patient: I know what they don't like, I'm a patient and I've eaten the food.
Hospital Board Member: "Why don't we ask the nurse?"
Patient: Umm, right here! I'm a patient. I have done a bit of research with the other patients. I know what we don't like.
Hospital Board Member: What's that sound?
Patient: OVER HERE! I know what patients don't like. For instance, that beef stroganoff.. it is disgusting! All of us agree..
Hospital Board Member: I don't see it that way. Besides, you're clearly too close to this problem to understand it. I'm going to call for a Committee.
Patient: Will the committee ask the patients for their opinions?
Hospital Board Member: I don't see how the individual opinions of patients regarding something so subjective as food preference can possibly impact this debate. If you keep talking, I'm going to have to ask you to leave.
Patient: But I'm a PATIENT!
Hospital Board Member: Look, if you continue to insist that you know better than us about this I fear it might negatively impact the treatment you receive in this place.
Patient: I literally threw up after I ate that Stroganoff.
Hospital Board Member: That is IT! I cannot abide disgusting talk of vomit in this forum. I strongly advise that you do not try and influence people by recounting your personal stories of illness! THIS IS A HOSPITAL!
Patient: Why did you invite me to this meeting in the first place?
Hospital Board Member: Hey, quit being snarky. You're the one who brought this up, not us!
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:02 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote: I could see male nurses out-earning female nurses, when they can find work, because they're disproportionately likely to be psychiatric nurses, which is dangerous and unpleasant and therefore better paid, but requires people able to physically restrain violent and delusional patients.

Otherwise your source follows the standard pay gap dogma, specifically not taking into account hours worked and level of experience.


Yes, that's true - there is evidence that male nurses specialize and therefore get the higher pay for those jobs requiring higher learning. I wonder what this is a function of, though. There is an argument to be made that there are a lot of one parent female-headed households, increasing the demands on the time and energy of the woman so that it makes it nearly impossible for her to get more training. This seems like an unbalanced situation.


Well if we gave a bit more opportunity to fathers that wouldn't happen.

Re hours of work and level of experience. Neither of us know how those data were collected, but you could be correct. Let's assume that you are. I have a couple of questions springing from that:

1. How is it that males would generally have more hours worked in any of these professions?


Taking on more shifts? All I can tell you is that men in full time employment average about 10% more hours per week than women in full time employment.

2. Do you think that data entry is field wherein your average male would have more experience than your average female?


Well in later life they would have had more experience, in part, due to having taken less time off to have children, and so forth. Less parental leave, that sort of thing. Women are more likely to go to university as well, and if that doesn't get them into a better career, it just limits the time they could spend getting experience.

Stephen Morgan wrote:I disapprove of bans on men working in rape crisis centres, too. Probably illegal, definitely immoral.


I absolutely, categorically disagree with you. It isn't illegal where I live, first of all. And I do not think it is immoral - trauma from rape is something that only those who have been raped can possibly understand, and if they have voiced their opposition to having to be left alone in a room with a man who will ask her personal questions in the immediate aftermath of the assault then we should respect them. No?


Maybe if they specifically ask for it, but it certainly shouldn't just be assumed that any women who's been raped is going to be happier, for example, having a rape kit administered by a female nurse than answering questions from a male constable.

I do, however, think it is tragic that there are no male-run male rape crisis centers.


Seems like a needless duplication, when we already have rape crisis centres, to have some more of them. Better to just have non-segregated ones, ones which can offer services to male victims, female victims of other women, and female victims of men, all in the same place, and without the assumption that women will make better workers for victims.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
Canadian-watcher wrote:There is an argument to be made that there are a lot of one parent female-headed households, increasing the demands on the time and energy of the woman so that it makes it nearly impossible for her to get more training. This seems like an unbalanced situation.


Well if we gave a bit more opportunity to fathers that wouldn't happen.


You're not going to get off that easily. Take one example.. mine. I was left by the father of my child. He was the sole wage earner at that time, as the baby was only 2 months old. Until my daughter was 6 years old he barely bothered to visit. What opportunity did he not have that would have made it possible for me, as a single mother, to get more training for work?

Stephen Morgan wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:1. How is it that males would generally have more hours worked in any of these professions?


Taking on more shifts? All I can tell you is that men in full time employment average about 10% more hours per week than women in full time employment.


Do you think this has anything to do with men perhaps having greater flexibility to take on more hours?

Stephen Morgan wrote:Well in later life they would have had more experience, in part, due to having taken less time off to have children, and so forth. Less parental leave, that sort of thing.


How does this square with your socialist ideals? Do you degrade the function of child-rearing and care? Does it just not figure in to your class struggle?

Stephen Morgan wrote: Women are more likely to go to university as well, and if that doesn't get them into a better career, it just limits the time they could spend getting experience.


How does this fit in with the Male Nurse scenario whereby male nurses 'are likely to have more education' and therefore this explains why they are paid more highly than female nurses?

Stephen Morgan wrote:Maybe if they specifically ask for it, but it certainly shouldn't just be assumed that any women who's been raped is going to be happier, for example, having a rape kit administered by a female nurse than answering questions from a male constable.


Can you tell me how this decision to exclude males from Rape Crisis Centers was made in the first place? If so, I'd like to know how that meeting went, I'm curious. If not, then don't assume that victim's voices weren't part of the policy making.

Stephen Morgan wrote:Seems like a needless duplication, when we already have rape crisis centres, to have some more of them. Better to just have non-segregated ones, ones which can offer services to male victims, female victims of other women, and female victims of men, all in the same place, and without the assumption that women will make better workers for victims.


But I believe we could allow the people who have experienced it to speak for themselves. That seems to be the right thing to do.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby wallflower » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:44 pm

Canadian_Watcher:
One of my favorite feminists, Barbara Welter, calls it "The Cult of Domesticity" or "The Cult of True Womanhood." - There's a really excellent piece online, I was thrilled to have found exactly what I was looking for here: The Cult of True Womanhood: 1820-1860

Funny that - here we've got an anti-feminist and a feminist drawing on exactly the same crappy Victorian attitude to prove his/her points! I love it!

If you look through it you'll see that it does not vilify men for this phenomenon, this was something that middle and upper class women perpetrated fiercely on their own sex. However, in describing what they saw as the true nature of women the people of that era also described the opposite - what they perceived to be the true nature of men. It's interesting reading, really.

One of the roots of the problem as I see it is that somehow man and woman have been placed as opposites, and therefore when we think of an attribute like gentleness, for example, we want to assign it and its opposite to one or the other of the genders. Somehow as a culture we've gotten so lazy as to put everything into either/or categories.
Welter's essay is really an important work. I first encountered it in college taking the required American History 101. My parents were both from New England and my father worked in the textile industry and so our family moved south as the industry did. Even though I was born in Virginia, as a kid I was a Yankee in Dixie and that kind of made me interested in what makes for cultural differences. Anyhow for a college research paper in that intro American History course a question that animated me, or rather a vague hypothesis, was how did it change things that after the war there was a generation with many more women than men--so many men had been killed in the Civil War. I was particularly interested in differences in the idea of womanhood in the South versus the North. Obviously I had to write a paper for the class and such research was too far ranging that purpose, so just kind of a backdrop.

One theory about Southern character that's been taken up by scholars in particular to account for the greater incidence of violence in the South is the culture of honor. The bare bones of the theory is that settlement of the north was had more people from farming regions whereas the Scots Irish who went south had more of a herding culture. While this theory is widely cited, I don't really think it tells the story all that well. Culture of honor is and idea applied to various societies from an anthropological or sociological perspectives. It's a useful perspective for understanding American regional differences, but obscures as much as it reveals.

As a kid growing up in the South something that was hard to escape was how mothers were actively engaged in transmitting the particular culture of honor of the American South.

In this thread there are many points of view that have been brought up, all of us seem to have a piece of the puzzle of what constitutes misogyny that we think is particularly important, that's part of what makes the thread contentious. The shiny object that I've been fixated on is notions of gender. Welter's essay in a compact form notes that as the industrial revolution pushed industry outside the home base a new compact developed. Men were given the authority outside whereas women authority in the home--obviously just a thumbnail sketch.

Years ago when I was student-teaching a fifth-grade class--eleven year olds--in a unit of instruction on presidential elections I asked the students to write on the question: Should we elect a woman as president? One boy wrote: I don't think we should elect a woman as president because [if we did] then we wouldn't have any freedom. His answer illustrates how generally in the USA it's mothers who tell children what they may do, the authority in the home rests with women. Family systems in other places aren't exactly like this, of course generalizations of what American family systems are like are very rough approximations. But Welter's cult of domesticity does provide a useful lens to view and to understand the sorts of stories we use to navigate our experience.

National character studies have fallen out of favor, but were popular during WWII. Gregory Bateson as an Englishman in America was aware of the difference. He pointed out that in the USA there was a tendency towards bipolar differentiation: "Republican-Democrat, political Right-Left, sex differentiation, God and the devil, and so on." He noted that in the UK a tendency toward ternary systems such as "parents-nurse-child, king-ministers-people, officers-N.C.O's-privates" etc.

I think that the tendency to put things into either/or categories which Canadian posits as an intellectual pitfall is very common across human societies; that people tend to think in dichotomies. But I also think that Americans for a variety of reasons are particularly prone to think in terms of binary systems. It's easy to discount Welter's cult of domesticity as old-fashioned, nonetheless it provides a window to see assumptions about the way the world is that still influence us. When the Equal Rights Amendment was being debated many American women were convinced that ratifying the amendment would represent a diminution of their status within society. Ultimately ratification of the amendment failed. Mothers are important in the transmission of culture to children. The cult of domesticity is an old fashioned story, but some variant of it still holds some sway as we teach our children.

One of my nieces is a Mormon and writes a "Mommy" blog, so I've gotten a view of the genre. I've seen where women who identify as Feminists have remarked that reading Mommy blogs is a kind of guilty pleasure. I can understand it. Even though they probably don't think that the story of relationships told in the blogs works for them as feminists, at least the blogs tell a gendered story.

I mentioned before Ivan Illich's book "Gender" and his critique that capitalism advances a non-gendered view where one hand can be replaced by the next. Illich points out that rather than a path toward liberation a not-gendered story for culture tends to disadvantage women as a group. The "deal" that Welter writes about: men get authority outside the home, and women authority inside the home, is probably not a story which produces the sorts of outcomes we want today. Still I think that Illich's caution that taking the idea of gender out of the equation isn't really a solution is a good point.

It seems that thinking in terms of dichotomies is very human. Dialectics is firmly established in the history of philosophy and as a not very educated person I've got some sense for Hegalian Dialectics which includes a threefold system with "synthesis" and I suspect most others have some sense of it too. In "The Metaphysical Club" Louis Menand's book about American Pragmatism, Menand writes about how Jane Addams changed John Dewey's concept of a dialectic:
I can see that I have always been interpreting dialectic wrong end up, the unity as the reconciliation of opposites, instead of the opposites as the unity in its growth, and thus translated the physical tension into a moral thing... I don't know as I give the reality of this at all,... it seems so natural & commonplace now, but I never had anything take hold of me so
My sense is that people aren't anytime soon going to stop thinking in terms of gender, but that a perspective of "the unity in its growth" is the best way to come at the subject. Thinking in terms of relationships will make the best sort of stories from which to organize our lives.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:00 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:
Canadian-watcher wrote:There is an argument to be made that there are a lot of one parent female-headed households, increasing the demands on the time and energy of the woman so that it makes it nearly impossible for her to get more training. This seems like an unbalanced situation.


Well if we gave a bit more opportunity to fathers that wouldn't happen.


You're not going to get off that easily. Take one example.. mine. I was left by the father of my child. He was the sole wage earner at that time, as the baby was only 2 months old. Until my daughter was 6 years old he barely bothered to visit. What opportunity did he not have that would have made it possible for me, as a single mother, to get more training for work?


We're not talking about your specific case. There are women who walk out on their children, or dump them, too, you know. But a less contemptuous social attitude towards fathers and greater legal and social rights for fathers would certainly go some way to changing the circumstances which bring about men taking more training to get a better status as bread-winners, while women don't bother because they're primarily not. Nothing is going to allow every mother, or father, the gain extra training.

Stephen Morgan wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:1. How is it that males would generally have more hours worked in any of these professions?


Taking on more shifts? All I can tell you is that men in full time employment average about 10% more hours per week than women in full time employment.


Do you think this has anything to do with men perhaps having greater flexibility to take on more hours?


I don't think flexibility is the right word. Men are more likely to be socially obligated to go and work outside the home.

Stephen Morgan wrote:Well in later life they would have had more experience, in part, due to having taken less time off to have children, and so forth. Less parental leave, that sort of thing.


How does this square with your socialist ideals? Do you degrade the function of child-rearing and care? Does it just not figure in to your class struggle?


Quite the opposite, I degrade the concept of paid work. Idler, and that. I object to the exclusion of men from the area of child-rearing and care, and the pressure put on men to work for money, to win bread for women, to work to support children while women get to be with the children more, and so on. Childrearing is less burdensome than paid work, but less profitable. Why women sometimes think it'd be better to have a career, or to be a jack of all trades, I find bizarre.

Stephen Morgan wrote: Women are more likely to go to university as well, and if that doesn't get them into a better career, it just limits the time they could spend getting experience.


How does this fit in with the Male Nurse scenario whereby male nurses 'are likely to have more education' and therefore this explains why they are paid more highly than female nurses?


You were asking about data input, not nursing. Nursing, I'd expect it to be down to extra hours worked, specialisation in fields like psychiatry, that sort of thing. The exact same circumstances don't necessarily prevail in all fields.

Stephen Morgan wrote:Maybe if they specifically ask for it, but it certainly shouldn't just be assumed that any women who's been raped is going to be happier, for example, having a rape kit administered by a female nurse than answering questions from a male constable.


Can you tell me how this decision to exclude males from Rape Crisis Centers was made in the first place? If so, I'd like to know how that meeting went, I'm curious. If not, then don't assume that victim's voices weren't part of the policy making.


If victims as individuals don't want to have a male case-worker, I could put up with that, if a group of rape victims don't want anything to do with men to the extent of excluding men from the place all together that shouldn't be allowed. It excludes the possibility of victims even having the option of making a different decision, as well as excluding male victims and victims of females. Not that I accept these policies having been put in place by victims.

Stephen Morgan wrote:Seems like a needless duplication, when we already have rape crisis centres, to have some more of them. Better to just have non-segregated ones, ones which can offer services to male victims, female victims of other women, and female victims of men, all in the same place, and without the assumption that women will make better workers for victims.


But I believe we could allow the people who have experienced it to speak for themselves. That seems to be the right thing to do.


They can speak, but these places need funding which can't be magiced up from nowhere, and if one group monopolises current spending the extra spending will have to be taken from them.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Saurian Tail » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:06 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
WakeUpAndLive wrote:By help us, I mean that misogyny is a two party occurrence. Without a male perpetrator, no misogynistic act can be completed. Until men understand and consciously realize when they are performing a misogynistic act there will be no way to deal with it. What I've gleamed from this thread so far is that the labeling is done by the victim, making this task all the more difficult, maybe impossible (?)


The idea that you've just put forward - that the label 'misogyny' cannot be put on an act by its victims - is ludicrous.


CW,

That is an incredibly tortured reading of what WakeUpAndLive wrote.

-ST
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:39 pm

Saurian Tail wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
WakeUpAndLive wrote:By help us, I mean that misogyny is a two party occurrence. Without a male perpetrator, no misogynistic act can be completed. Until men understand and consciously realize when they are performing a misogynistic act there will be no way to deal with it. What I've gleamed from this thread so far is that the labeling is done by the victim, making this task all the more difficult, maybe impossible (?)


The idea that you've just put forward - that the label 'misogyny' cannot be put on an act by its victims - is ludicrous.


CW,

That is an incredibly tortured reading of what WakeUpAndLive wrote.

-ST


Please reinterpret it for me.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:48 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:We're not talking about your specific case.


I'd like to. Would you mind re-reading my account of it and commenting as to what opportunities were denied to the father of my child that would have allowed me to get extra training to further my career?

Stephen Morgan wrote:But a less contemptuous social attitude towards fathers and greater legal and social rights for fathers would certainly go some way to changing the circumstances which bring about men taking more training to get a better status as bread-winners,


I agree fully. As I've said before, I would like to see the same level of social 'appreciation' (for lack of a better word) for father as there is for mothers. This would go a long, long way to achieving equality.


Stephen Morgan wrote:
I don't think flexibility is the right word. Men are more likely to be socially obligated to go and work outside the home.


What a luxury! A great many females, particularly single mothers, have much more than a social obligation to work outside the home.

Stephen Morgan wrote:Well in later life they would have had more experience, in part, due to having taken less time off to have children, and so forth. Less parental leave, that sort of thing.


How does this square with your socialist ideals? Do you degrade the function of child-rearing and care? Does it just not figure in to your class struggle?


Stephen Morgan wrote: I object to the exclusion of men from the area of child-rearing and care, and the pressure put on men to work for money, to win bread for women, to work to support children while women get to be with the children more, and so on.


Welcome to Fantasy Island, where women refuse to allow men to care for the children and every man is a breadwinner turning over his paycheque to his wife. Honestly Stephen Morgan, you must be able to look around you and see many people who do not fall into the narrow, old-fashioned pigeonhole you've just cited as being 'normal.' That being said I also object to men being excluded from child rearing and care. I don't see where that is happening, though.


Stephen Morgan wrote:Childrearing is less burdensome than paid work, but less profitable. Why women sometimes think it'd be better to have a career, or to be a jack of all trades, I find bizarre.


This is based on your first hand experience raising children, or not?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby 23 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:15 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:Childrearing is less burdensome than paid work, but less profitable. Why women sometimes think it'd be better to have a career, or to be a jack of all trades, I find bizarre.


This is based on your first hand experience raising children, or not?


*waits for SM's response to this particular question of C_w's... since 23 never met a parent who thought that raising a child was less burdensome than wage slavery... nor has 23, as a parent, ever felt that way either*

Edit: This parent prefers the descriptor "more time and energy consuming" over "burdensome".
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby barracuda » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:17 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:Childrearing is less burdensome than paid work, but less profitable.


As a single father with full custody, allow me to dispell you of this notion. Childrearing is far more difficult than going to a job every day, full stop. My days of mere full-time work seem like a long ago luxury comparatively. However, my understanding of the depth of life beyond monetary recompense has profited immensely from the experience.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby wallflower » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:50 pm

baraccuda:
my understanding of the depth of life beyond monetary recompense has profited immensely from the experience

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:30 pm

23 wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:Childrearing is less burdensome than paid work, but less profitable. Why women sometimes think it'd be better to have a career, or to be a jack of all trades, I find bizarre.


This is based on your first hand experience raising children, or not?


*waits for SM's response to this particular question of C_w's... since 23 never met a parent who thought that raising a child was less burdensome than wage slavery... nor has 23, as a parent, ever felt that way either*

Edit: This parent prefers the descriptor "more time and energy consuming" over "burdensome".


Well, that edit is rather my point. There's a difference between "easy" and "not burdensome". I dare say that being, say, a data input clerk, is much easier than spending the same time looking after some kids. It's also soul-crushingly dull and unrewarding, hence considerably more burdensome.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:34 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:Welcome to Fantasy Island, where women refuse to allow men to care for the children and every man is a breadwinner turning over his paycheque to his wife. Honestly Stephen Morgan, you must be able to look around you and see many people who do not fall into the narrow, old-fashioned pigeonhole you've just cited as being 'normal.' That being said I also object to men being excluded from child rearing and care. I don't see where that is happening, though.


All I can say is that every couple I know who've had children, the woman has looked after the kids and worked, at most, intermittently, thereafter. I don't know any man who has done anything other than keep working. Well, one friend of a friend of an acquaintance who became unemployed so the mother kicked him out and denies him all contact, at least that's what I heard from the mother.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:43 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
23 wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:Childrearing is less burdensome than paid work, but less profitable. Why women sometimes think it'd be better to have a career, or to be a jack of all trades, I find bizarre.


This is based on your first hand experience raising children, or not?


*waits for SM's response to this particular question of C_w's... since 23 never met a parent who thought that raising a child was less burdensome than wage slavery... nor has 23, as a parent, ever felt that way either*

Edit: This parent prefers the descriptor "more time and energy consuming" over "burdensome".


Well, that edit is rather my point. There's a difference between "easy" and "not burdensome". I dare say that being, say, a data input clerk, is much easier than spending the same time looking after some kids. It's also soul-crushingly dull and unrewarding, hence considerably more burdensome.


but you're still just guessing.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby 23 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:59 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
23 wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
Stephen Morgan wrote:Childrearing is less burdensome than paid work, but less profitable. Why women sometimes think it'd be better to have a career, or to be a jack of all trades, I find bizarre.


This is based on your first hand experience raising children, or not?


*waits for SM's response to this particular question of C_w's... since 23 never met a parent who thought that raising a child was less burdensome than wage slavery... nor has 23, as a parent, ever felt that way either*

Edit: This parent prefers the descriptor "more time and energy consuming" over "burdensome".


Well, that edit is rather my point. There's a difference between "easy" and "not burdensome". I dare say that being, say, a data input clerk, is much easier than spending the same time looking after some kids. It's also soul-crushingly dull and unrewarding, hence considerably more burdensome.


"Easy" and "burdensome" are value judgements. Whereas "more time and energy consuming" is factual.

Something can be not easy (like parenting) yet not burdensome.

You chose to use the descriptor "burdensome" in the first place. Not being a parent, I can see why.
"Once you label me, you negate me." — Soren Kierkegaard
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