What constitutes Misogyny?

[Maddy]

Ah, jesus, do you have to make me point out the obvious?

Are you insane? If someone is accusing someone of something, don't they have duty to prove that it is so? And if the accused challenges them when they do, or especially when they don't tried to prove that, somehow makes the supposed accused more guilty? Do you understand how crazy that is?
That "rule" is called fair play, logic, justice...

But until you point out how we are being misogynistic we will be unable to change our actions, which I believe is his point for asking for examples. You are right in that it does happen to women, but it is (mostly) men who perform the acts, and without awareness there can be no resolution.

I never said I was infallible and could never go wrong. I just don't think my behavior has been misogynistic.
And you still have failed to bring anything credible up to have me believe that. That is why you have to generalize wildly and
bring in straw limbaughs.

That you've instituted this rule, that women should be required to prove to you, how your behavior has affected them, that they have to win a case against you, based on what you arbitrarily consider evidence in your self-constructed play-court, without any regard to your own cultural indoctrination and the conflict of interest of your privileged status, yeah, guess what, that is misogynistic.

[WakeUpAndLive]

Oh and, just saying, if anyone wants to pile on C_W, you gotta pile on me too.

Also, it might be nice to give latitude for short tempers considering:

1. Very little actual discussion of how women experience this male-run world has taken place in this thread entitled "What Constitutes Misogyny."
2. Perhaps a dozen posts (on a supposedly progressive board) out of hundreds have expressed any empathy whatsoever for the status of women and what we endure, in this thread entitled "What Constitutes Misogyny."
3. Most of the exchanges have centered around men defensively denying, shaming, demeaning, and otherwise attacking the input of women, in this thread entitled "What Constitutes Misogyny."

It's a wee bit crazy-making.

1) What constitutes misogyny does not have anything to do with how women experience this male-run world. If this thread was titled a woman's experience of misogyny that might be different. What constitutes misogyny is not a one sided experience, there is both perpetrator and victim, and until we examine both sides there can be no fair conclusion to the question of what constitutes misogyny. (**and since I'll be blasted before and had some points brought up, woman's opinion on the event need to hold more clout)

2) I think you are looking at what you want to see. I can throw out a handful of examples at the drop of a hat which I can express my contempt for the cultural practices in place that perpetuate these beliefs. In actuality I feel empathy for both furnace man and cw, neither had a pleasant experience with each other and both came away from the situation probably feeling worse than before. I feel bad it might have affected their whole day. In the other event, I wish I was there to Batman those two fools with my baterangs. I honestly will never know what it feels like to experience anything like that (I hope), so empathy is hard for me....just know it is my position that women shouldn't ever have to be worried about shit like this, having two sisters makes me never wish that upon anyone. I was raised in a female dominated household and if anything more closely relate to most females, I really don't understand where you are getting this from....please help me?

3) I would say this has gone both ways.

Ah, jesus, do you have to make me point out the obvious?

Can I not ask your opinion about how you perceive my actions to be misogynistic without being misogynistic then? I'm not asking you to prove anything, just state your opinion on why our action(s) have been misogynistic.

[Stephen Morgan]

I see the fine point you make re hava being female, however the over-arching problem I am having with this thread is one that was fostered by male posters. I tried in vain to get moderators to see the harassment (for lack of a more accurate word) that brekin and Wake Up and Live were perpetuating. They seem to respond only to overt slurs. Hava's post was clearly in violation, so I barked. All in all though, I do believe that it is the ego of males (and no, not males in general.. a couple of male trouble makers) that have been creating a hostile environment lately.

Id. Probably. As opposed to ego. Not that I accept the hypothesis of a hostile environment, except maybe to you personally, but accepting it for the sake of argument, it would probably be Id rather than Ego. The culture just puts about this trope that men have big, or alternatively fragile, egos, when all humans get much more trouble from the Id.

Anti-feminist is anti-feminist, whether it comes from a woman or from a man. I do not discriminate.

So you don't think feminist blogs which exclude men are a remedial idea?

[barracuda]

Can I not ask your opinion about how you perceive my actions to be misogynistic without being misogynistic then?

You can, but it would be more helpful to the discussion if you might simply accept that it is in the concensus of the women here, and reason out for yourself the "why" of the thing. Give some credence and then take some responsiblity and see what happens.

[WakeUpAndLive]

Can I not ask your opinion about how you perceive my actions to be misogynistic without being misogynistic then?

You can, but it would be more helpful to the discussion if you might simply accept that it is in the concensus of the women here, and reason out for yourself the "why" of the thing. Give some credence and then take some responsiblity and see what happens.

I would like to think of this as a two way street while doing so though.

I know CW experienced this in the other thread recently:

You know, I can't catch a break these days.

Stand up for women, get vilified.
Stand up for male children, get vilified.

I feel the same way here.

[Canadian_watcher]

So you don't think feminist blogs which exclude men are a remedial idea?

well, I think that they can provide a place where women can discuss these things without having to constantly say things like:

-yes, it's true, men have problems too, and thank you for pointing that out, but that's not what we're trying to discuss
or
-I don't necessarily mean EVERY MAN
or
-that was my authentic experience, so please don't try and tell me it wasn't
or
-you're not listening to me!
or
-YES, for the fiftieth time, I DO believe that women are capable of naming sexist and misogynist acts without having to find some impartial arbiter of justice, because THERE AIN'T NONE available! (even Simone deBeauvoir laments that there is no impartial judge to these matters)

[barracuda]

I would like to think of this as a two way street while doing so though.

Think of it however you need to, but consider putting forth some reasons of your own as to why your request for an explanation might be causng offense.

[Canadian_watcher]

Oh and, just saying, if anyone wants to pile on C_W, you gotta pile on me too.

Also, it might be nice to give latitude for short tempers considering:

1. Very little actual discussion of how women experience this male-run world has taken place in this thread entitled "What Constitutes Misogyny."
2. Perhaps a dozen posts (on a supposedly progressive board) out of hundreds have expressed any empathy whatsoever for the status of women and what we endure, in this thread entitled "What Constitutes Misogyny."
3. Most of the exchanges have centered around men defensively denying, shaming, demeaning, and otherwise attacking the input of women, in this thread entitled "What Constitutes Misogyny."

It's a wee bit crazy-making.

I second this.

[Maddy]

Girls, I seriously would not feed the trolls any longer. It only leads them on and will frustrate you further, which is clearly their entire point.

Don't feed them.

To be specific: I am sick of seeing brekin and WakeUpAndLive trolling you, and getting away with it.

Have fun on 4Chan, boys.

[brekin]

barracuda wrote:

brekin wrote:
Are you insane?

This is unneccessary and unwelcome in this thread, brekin. Don't do it again.

Pardon, I should have said something like "Do you know how insane that sounds?"
But buddy, are you just getting out of bed or something?
What about the swearing at members? I found it unwelcome and unnecessary.
Does using asterisks give one a free pass?

Maddy wrote:

Ah, jesus, do you have to make me point out the obvious?

brekin wrote:
I never said I was infallible and could never go wrong. I just don't think my behavior has been misogynistic.
And you still have failed to bring anything credible up to have me believe that. That is why you have to generalize wildly and
bring in straw limbaughs.

Project Willow wrote:
That you've instituted this rule, that women should be required to prove to you, how your behavior has affected them, that they have to win a case against you, based on what you arbitrarily consider evidence in your self-constructed play-court, without any regard to your own cultural indoctrination and the conflict of interest of your privileged status, yeah, guess what, that is misogynistic.

Maddy when the behavior is an accusation of misogyny then yes they need to marshal some evidence. If not, then what, whatever someone wants to say
misogyny is to them, is? Someone getting turned down for a job is misogyny if they are a women and the interviewer is male. Sorry pal, you can't question why, because you are guy? Ludicrous.

[barracuda]

barracuda wrote:

brekin wrote:
Are you insane?

This is unneccessary and unwelcome in this thread, brekin. Don't do it again.

Pardon, I should have said something like "Do you know how insane that sounds?"
But buddy, are you just getting out of bed or something?
What about the swearing at members? I found it unwelcome and unnecessary.
Does using asterisks give one a free pass?

Sorry, pal, but to be quite honest it's your behavior here that I have a problem with, not Willow's. If you'd like to continue discussing this topic, I suggest you keep that in mind. It's too bad if you don't like it, but I'm getting weary of your voice.

Please don't request specific examples either. They won't be forthcoming. And I'll repeat to you what I told WakeUp:

...it would be more helpful to the discussion if you might simply accept that it is in the concensus of the women here, and reason out for yourself the "why" of the thing. Give some credence and then take some responsiblity and see what happens.

[Canadian_watcher]

@Maddy: Oh I put them on ignore yesterday. They are not worthy.

[Project Willow]

That "rule" is called fair play, logic, justice...

Justice like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_court

If you going around accusing men of it then you better be ready and willing to listen to what they have to
say about it.

Would you respond so to a man if he accused you of racism? Try to imagine that. If you expect to have any sort of dialogue you will not speak to me that way.

Accusing people of misogyny wildly seems to be a character trait. Again, misogyny is about men and women.
Accusations of misogyny is also about men and women.

Misogyny is not about you, it's something that happens to women.

Yeah, you did. Twice. Once to me directly and to someone else. I have no need for invention.

This:

It's your specific opinion that you are final judge and jury of who and what is misogynistic in this thread. Which to even question is "inherently disrespectful".

does not equal these:

1.
Project Willow wrote:

In the context of this thread, Brekin, one essential path to the answer of the OP is learning, or accepting and respecting, what is true for women about how they experience the world, according to their own assessments, not according yours, or any other man's.

The fact that you challenged C_W on her interpretation of her experience with furnace man represents to me an inherently disrespectful response.

2.
Project Willow wrote:

So, let's take the masses out of this for second. Imagine a single woman with her hand up saying: "I've got a problem here! This behavior is hurtful and affecting me negatively!" In a one on one situation, I can see a lot of men reacting in a protective way, listening to the woman and devising strategies to end whatever hurtful thing is going on, especially if he weren't the source of the hurt. When it comes to gender politics, however, for many of these same men, all's fair in war. So what we're hearing in this thread is: "Well, from MY point of view, is that really a problem?" In a one on one this reaction would clearly be seen as dismissive, minimizing, inherently and fundamentally disrespectful. In gender politics however, that hurtful behavior may very well be coming from the men, the very people the women are trying to speak to, in speaking truth to power, so to speak. I'd suggest that on some level the men know that and for whatever reason they can't deal.

So there's the basic situation, where men are reacting in a fundamentally disrespectful way, exemplifying misogynistic behaviors in a thread about misogyny.

Misogyny is not about you, it's something that happens to women.

[Canadian_watcher]

So, let's take the masses out of this for second. Imagine a single woman with her hand up saying: "I've got a problem here! This behavior is hurtful and affecting me negatively!" In a one on one situation, I can see a lot of men reacting in a protective way, listening to the woman and devising strategies to end whatever hurtful thing is going on, especially if he weren't the source of the hurt. When it comes to gender politics, however, for many of these same men, all's fair in war. So what we're hearing in this thread is: "Well, from MY point of view, is that really a problem?" In a one on one this reaction would clearly be seen as dismissive, minimizing, inherently and fundamentally disrespectful. In gender politics however, that hurtful behavior may very well be coming from the men, the very people the women are trying to speak to, in speaking truth to power, so to speak. I'd suggest that on some level the men know that and for whatever reason they can't deal.

So there's the basic situation, where men are reacting in a fundamentally disrespectful way, exemplifying misogynistic behaviors in a thread about misogyny.

this is excellent. thank you for this.

[Project Willow]

I would like to think of this as a two way street while doing so though.

The power imbalance between perp and victim (although that dyad isn't completely apt here) renders your two way street requirement unworkable.

.........


Truly, it would benefit the discussion greatly if the men protesting because their behavior has been called misogynist would back off a little. I'm close to adding to my ignore list as well.