Contrary to how many here feel about this thread, I really love it. One of the reasons I like it so much it that's it's intended as a general community discussion. Most often online discussions of this sort are among people who already have garnered some shared constructs and language for talking about them. And this thread doesn't presume that shared context.
I'm also sure that all good threads must come to an end. There have been so many important issues discussed about what constitutes misogyny which really deserve further conversation. I'm not sure how to encourage such discussion; one never really knows what topic titles will catch on. In any case I'm hopeful there will be more discussion. And I rather would like it if before this thread runs out of steam some general areas for further discussion can be pointed out.
Canadian_Watcher wrote:
okay like.. are we talking about a parallel universe scenario here?
This is not a matriarchy FFS.
I concur with C_W "This is not a matriarchy." My curiosity was aroused by Stephen Morgan's contention that it is in a couple of ways. First, I was interested in believing as he does that "the modern west to be a matriarchy" then what he believes is an appropriate response to that state of affairs. Thanks very much Stephen for your response.
Second one of the themes developed in this thread is that misogyny is one result of the patriarchy. As far as future discussions here the patriarchy is a topic I would like to see pursued.
Gender is another topic I would like to see more about too.
I'm not trying to be prescriptive, what comes up here at RI is up to me and the rest of us.
An anecdote not entirely on topic to this thread but which picks up on some of what's been discussed here recently: I was curious about Tumblr and set up a quick blog there just to see what it was all about. The premise is simple, I post three short quotations from reading I've done during the day. So as Tumblr blogs go it's boring and unattractive and doesn't have much of a following. Mostly it's succeeded in letting me get a feel for Tumblr.
Recently I posted a quote from a post by Jill at Feministe (got to the post via Eschaton so lots of people saw the post)
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/05/02/filling-the-gaps/ But in the feminist blogosphere, “calling out” has increasingly turned into cannibalism. It’s increasingly turned into a stand-in for actual activism. We have increasingly focused on shutting down voices rather than raising each other up. Pointing at the gap has replaced doing the hard, often thankless work of filling it.
The quote got reblogged quite a bit. And many of the people who reblogged it got an earful primarily pointing to a response to Jill's post by Jessica Yee at Racialicious
http://www.racialicious.com/2011/05/03/responding-to-the-mainstream-feminist-blogosphere-on-feminism-for-real/#comment-15251Often discussions in the feminist blogosphere get hot and acrimonious. I don't mean to be totally clueless, but let's face it I am. Anyhow one way that I view many of these blowups is from a generational lens, where the young generation is rebelling against the old as a means to clarify and establish a generational identity within feminism as a movement.
Be old and clueless I read Jill's post as making the point that "calling out" alone does not a substantial movement make. And that she was making the case for possibly more constructive ways for people in the online feminist community to engage with one another. Jessica Yee perspective on the post seems to be that it was an attempt to erase Native Americans and women of color by a widely-read white author. So at Tumblr most of the push back against the quote was to interpret it as an attack on women of color to which the appropriate response is to pile on, or join in in calling Jill at Feministe out.
Implicit in the critique of feminism is the notion that feminism as promulgated by white, middle-class feminists is oppression of women of color. This view is is bolstered by a construct of intersectionality where the combination of identities people hold are more oppressive than a mere combination of discrimination against the discrete identities. I do think that intersectionality is an important an useful construct for understanding discrimination and what to do about it. But I don't think that methodology inevitably leads to confrontation, or that confrontation is always the appropriate response.
Yee writes:
I’ve been reflecting a lot lately on how we are so busy telling other people not to be oppressive to our communities that we have little energy left to deal with what’s going on inside of our own communities. I’m finished with doing the educating on how feminism needs to change – it’s been done.
I suspect that Yee probably isn't finished yet. But I'm sure she believes that, and it strikes me that part of the problem of "calling out" as the only response to oppression is it's that or nothing, at least so far as developing strong linkages between communities goes.
I do understand that the methodology of intersectionality is very important to people especially young people so engaged in developing and clarifying their identities. But there's a danger in not going deep enough, a danger that being an American man of a certain age the expression "It's the system, man!" conjures up. If everything is enmeshed and connected, railing against the system has little noticeable effect.
What to do about that isn't just a problem for feminists to address, all of us face the same conundrum. I don't believe we are powerless, indeed believe that all of us can be empowered. Focusing on empowerment provides a way to begin to imagine creative responses to our situations.
Rage is a powerful motivator, but the problem with rage is how easily misdirected it can be. Misogyny probably is in some part misdirected rage. Every generation need the succeeding generations, and every generation needs the previous one to pass. All this is a messy sort of dancing, which while can be beautiful sometimes is frequently clumsy and hostile.
Yikes, I thought to post this whole Tumbler story mostly because I've been thinking about Compared2What's raising the topic of the systemic nature of misogyny using her connection to Native people's stories. And especially the observations of viewing them as a "tourist." The idea of a middle-aged white guy trying to puzzle out misogyny is rather like a tourist. Compared2What it seems points out how while there are pitfalls to the tourist perspective, the perspective can sometimes provide a useful view.
I would like to see further discussion of gender, the patriarchy, and intersectionality among other things. I suspect these topics will come up. I'm so grateful that this thread has made me more alert to them.
