All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby kenoma » Tue May 24, 2011 8:35 pm

Searcher08 wrote:I just watched it on iPlayer and thought it was fabulous.
It has great interviews with people from the inner Ayn Rand circle, which showed for me enantiodromia in devastating clarity.

But was this any kind of news to you? And is it of any significance? Ayn Rand does not really represent elite thinking: she appeals to socially frustrated dentists with ambitious stock portfolios. No one who matters pays much attention to her (Greenspan is the apparent exception: but his connections to Rand were always a bit of a PR exercise: i.e. he wasn't elite, he had the mindset of every daytrading schmuck).

Searcher08 wrote:The other aspect was the documenting of a very deep shifting of power from Washington to Wall Street, with Robert Rubin admitting he was directly dictating aspects of American foriegn policy.

Again, is this new information? Wasn't all this covered much more intelligently and with greater consquence by Klein's Shock Doctrine?

Searcher08 wrote:I loved the non-linear approach and the fact that it is not stated as a legalistic set of assertions and argumentation, but as a web of interconnecting concepts and feedback loops - that actual models it's content in its method of presentation. I imagine it could be watched several times and much new discovered each time.

With respect, I think this is your way of saying that the documentary lacked any coherence, and that you're not entirely sure what it was on about. I would expect an historical documentary to inform me about a given period of time. Why should I have to watch it several times to unlock its secrets?
The history of the IMF and related entities is 'knowable' and should not be the object of mystery-mongering.
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby justdrew » Tue May 24, 2011 9:24 pm

kenoma wrote:If you don't want to torrent: I use Expat shield, which gives you a UK IP address for watching BBC iplayer. Windows only. Turn it off when doing anything else.

Must say I was underwhelmed by this first episode.

I'll try and summarize the argument, such as it is (maybe you shouldn't read this if you haven't seen it):

The target is a Randian cybernetic utopianism which came to the fore in the early eighties, and which promises to harmonize untrammeled individualism in an optimally rational hivemind. We love and believe in markets just as we love and believe in computers, because both promise this utopia. But rational individualism is an oxymoron: we're essentially frail and irrational as individuals. We can't stop doing things that are irrational, that go against our own interests and/or the cybernetic whole. So we become intensely jealous (Ayn Rand); we shag interns (Clinton); we ignore our better judgement about 'irrational exuberance' when it's unpopular (Greenspan). The virus eating away at the system of rational individualism is our very irrational faith that this system will always run smoothly, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
Into this mix is thrown firstly the East Asian crisis and subsequent IMF pillaging, and then the 2008 credit crisis and subsequent response. They both somehow manifest this irrational faith in computer algorithms as harbingers of absolute individual freedom...

I'm being generous here though, because the connection between these events and the central thesis of the documentary is pretty damn tenuous, and mostly left up to your imagination. So are other connections - I can guess, but never really know why the Lewinsky scandal is important in all this. I half-understand why Curtis has to pretend that Clinton was surprised at having to implement massive cuts on entering office; but I know it's patent bullshit. That internet personae commodify the 'individual' is true and interesting... but what this has to do with Greenspan and Rand, I'm not sure.

In short, it's all a bit of a mess. Diehard fans might say this is the point, that it's an evocative, suggestive mess. Its incoherence is fertile ground for an open-ended discussion of the themes it raises. But I wonder whether anything more than aesthetic pleasures are being satisfied here. I wonder what kind of conversations and arguments this documentary will really generate, beyond a kind of slack-jawed admiration of its ambition.

And there is a real problem here, because the documentary effectively validates two rather nasty bits of propaganda:
1) The people in charge - your Greenspans, your Clintons, your IMFs - are essentially motivated and blinkered by their sincere belief in misguided ideas. It's not that they actively seek to maximise their own material wealth at the expense of a global majority whom they regard as scum. Not at all: they really, sincerely believe Randian objectivism and cybernetic utopianism will lead to the best of all possible worlds. They just haven't been appraised of the downsides yet. (That these beliefs justify and enable massive self-enrichment is purely coincidental, and of no relevance here)
2) An irrational faith in computer algorithms amongst Wall St firms caused the current financial crisis. D'oh! Please ignore obvious evidence of foreknowledge of the crisis. Forget about the massively lucrative TBTF state bailouts which no computer could have predicted. Pay no heed to the incredible concentration of wealth which has only increased since the 2008 crisis. The quants fucked up! We didn't want it to happen this way, honest!


it's just part 1 of 3, once 2 and 3 are out perhaps it'll tie together more.

but... isn't it also true that these folks tacit or overt subscription to Randian philosophy is laying the ground work for explaining why these people did what they did? They did it because they could, and wanted more money and power. They see the population willing to hand over their well-being to something called a "free market" and hand over their power to a professional political class, and consider them sheep marching willingly to slaughter and really couldn't care less how they're harmed. It's the Anarchy of Power in play and the series will hopefully make the how and why of that plain.
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby Searcher08 » Tue May 24, 2011 9:31 pm

kenoma wrote:
Searcher08 wrote:I just watched it on iPlayer and thought it was fabulous.
It has great interviews with people from the inner Ayn Rand circle, which showed for me enantiodromia in devastating clarity.

But was this any kind of news to you? And is it of any significance? Ayn Rand does not really represent elite thinking: she appeals to socially frustrated dentists with ambitious stock portfolios. No one who matters pays much attention to her (Greenspan is the apparent exception: but his connections to Rand were always a bit of a PR exercise: i.e. he wasn't elite, he had the mindset of every daytrading schmuck).


Well, yes. I knew of the facts but the reality of the interviews gave it an extra dimension. Atlas Shrugged and it's philosophy are extremely influential, especially in Silicon Valley. Saying it only appeals to frustrated dentists is simply untrue. I'm unsure how you qualify people as 'really mattering'. Greenspan is as elite as they come.



Searcher08 wrote:The other aspect was the documenting of a very deep shifting of power from Washington to Wall Street, with Robert Rubin admitting he was directly dictating aspects of American foriegn policy.

Again, is this new information? Wasn't all this covered much more intelligently and with greater consquence by Klein's Shock Doctrine?


I have not read it, so maybe it does. However the interview with Rubin was excellent in laying oout who calls the shots and why.


Searcher08 wrote:I loved the non-linear approach and the fact that it is not stated as a legalistic set of assertions and argumentation, but as a web of interconnecting concepts and feedback loops - that actual models it's content in its method of presentation. I imagine it could be watched several times and much new discovered each time.

With respect, I think this is your way of saying that the documentary lacked any coherence, and that you're not entirely sure what it was on about. I would expect an historical documentary to inform me about a given period of time. Why should I have to watch it several times to unlock its secrets?
The history of the IMF and related entities is 'knowable' and should not be the object of mystery-mongering.


No, I found it very coherent, in the sense of the parts connected with plenty of meaning. I think that it's format seems to be a style that you really dont like -and when I say it is worth multiple viewings it is in that context. I didnt have any expectations regarding its presentation and it certainly was not in the style of a John Pilger A--> B -->C exposition, which in context of the subject matter I think was a very good thing, as it was laying out connections as much as argument.
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby 8bitagent » Tue May 24, 2011 10:49 pm

I'm trying to avoid spoilers, but from what I skimmed this sounds just amazing. Even if I can't follow the concepts presented in a documentary, I just enjoy the lucid nature of the work.

I once dated a girl who was a huge Ayn Rand fan, I tend to think one factor it ended is because I expressed my strong dismay at the tenets of Randian beliefs. It comes off as that cold, fascistic
survival of the fittest/let the weak die Neet-Cheese prattle.

Ok, I am dying to see this...anywhere this can be streamed/torrented/downloaded/viewed for those of us who dont have cable or BBC America?

Also anyone know where his last series, Kabul City, can be found?
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby 82_28 » Tue May 24, 2011 11:52 pm

It's slowly starting to get seeded in the torrent realm of things. But it errors out for me so far. Say, you nice British RI people, care to snag it if you can and seed a little more? I can't wait to watch this!

I saw the trailer and I am amazed so far by how vacuous and personality-less Ayn Rand is. I thought she'd have a little more oomph.
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby 8bitagent » Wed May 25, 2011 12:26 am

82_28 wrote:It's slowly starting to get seeded in the torrent realm of things. But it errors out for me so far. Say, you nice British RI people, care to snag it if you can and seed a little more? I can't wait to watch this!

I saw the trailer and I am amazed so far by how vacuous and personality-less Ayn Rand is. I thought she'd have a little more oomph.



I know some left leaning feminists who love her stuff, and I understand the importance of a strong female presence during the first half of the male dominated 20th century(err, not that that has even changed much) but ugh. But she indeed comes off as quite cold, spouting a survival of the strongest mentality. It's no wonder her very inspiration draws from a notorious child serial killer.

Anyways, I'm guessing tomorrow night is part 3? I'll try and snag it next week, as I usually like to digest his films in one go. Part of me wishes he'd do more documentaries, but then again too much of a good thing can start wearing thin.
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby justdrew » Wed May 25, 2011 2:05 am

8bitagent wrote:
82_28 wrote:It's slowly starting to get seeded in the torrent realm of things. But it errors out for me so far. Say, you nice British RI people, care to snag it if you can and seed a little more? I can't wait to watch this!

I saw the trailer and I am amazed so far by how vacuous and personality-less Ayn Rand is. I thought she'd have a little more oomph.



I know some left leaning feminists who love her stuff, and I understand the importance of a strong female presence during the first half of the male dominated 20th century(err, not that that has even changed much) but ugh. But she indeed comes off as quite cold, spouting a survival of the strongest mentality. It's no wonder her very inspiration draws from a notorious child serial killer.

Anyways, I'm guessing tomorrow night is part 3? I'll try and snag it next week, as I usually like to digest his films in one go. Part of me wishes he'd do more documentaries, but then again too much of a good thing can start wearing thin.


part 2 may not be out til next week, looks like a once a week schedule. at least no new ep tonight.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2 ... nes_o.html
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed May 25, 2011 2:11 am

Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby Rory » Wed May 25, 2011 2:21 am

there's approx 900 seeds on thebox.bz

registrations are open
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby Stephen Morgan » Wed May 25, 2011 3:04 am

I don't feel like it's a good idea to register with a torrent site. Although I did once register with TheBox as it was the only place to get Nebulous.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby 8bitagent » Wed May 25, 2011 3:24 am

This one is seeding pretty fast
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6419799 ... of_3_www.d

I know BBC has long been called the "minister of propaganda", but they've had a lot of interesting stuff over the years. Hell, I enjoy some of the documentaries on Fox News from time to time.
CBC has a lot of good ones too.
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby Nordic » Wed May 25, 2011 3:29 am

"The Century of the Self" is available for rent at my local (and wonderful) indie video rental store.

I haven't rented it or watched it from there (saw it online) but you might be able to contact them and find out where they got it. And they might even sell you a copy.

http://www.vidiotsvideo.com/
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby 8bitagent » Wed May 25, 2011 4:07 am

Nordic wrote:"The Century of the Self" is available for rent at my local (and wonderful) indie video rental store.

I haven't rented it or watched it from there (saw it online) but you might be able to contact them and find out where they got it. And they might even sell you a copy.

http://www.vidiotsvideo.com/



Is that a good one? I just realized I never actually saw it, other than some clips of Bernays. I think that's his four hour one? Looks like he's done a lot of work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Curtis
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby Nordic » Wed May 25, 2011 4:15 am

8bitagent wrote:
Nordic wrote:"The Century of the Self" is available for rent at my local (and wonderful) indie video rental store.

I haven't rented it or watched it from there (saw it online) but you might be able to contact them and find out where they got it. And they might even sell you a copy.

http://www.vidiotsvideo.com/



Is that a good one? I just realized I never actually saw it, other than some clips of Bernays. I think that's his four hour one? Looks like he's done a lot of work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Curtis



Aw, dude, you've GOT to see "Century of the Self". Everybody should. It's mind blowing, but in an "of course!" kind of a way. It describes how we got here, into this culture of "consumers" where we're surrounded constantly by propaganda (advertising) and how PR and advertising got co-opted by the CIA and the Black Ops criminals and was used against us in politicial shenanigans all over the globe.

It's really fascinating. It was on Google video, that's where I saw it.

Seriously, it should be shown to every 8th grader in the world. And then again in 9th. And again in 10th in case they slept through it the first two times.
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Re: All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace

Postby gnosticheresy_2 » Wed May 25, 2011 5:03 am

kenoma wrote:
Searcher08 wrote:I just watched it on iPlayer and thought it was fabulous.
It has great interviews with people from the inner Ayn Rand circle, which showed for me enantiodromia in devastating clarity.

But was this any kind of news to you? And is it of any significance? Ayn Rand does not really represent elite thinking: she appeals to socially frustrated dentists with ambitious stock portfolios. No one who matters pays much attention to her (Greenspan is the apparent exception: but his connections to Rand were always a bit of a PR exercise: i.e. he wasn't elite, he had the mindset of every daytrading schmuck).


Ayn Rand does not "represent" elite thinking, but rather provides an intellectual cover/ justification for their behaviour. The segment on Silicon Valley illustrated this very well, it was obvious they all thought they were Galtian colossi, bestriding the world, carrying the poor uneducated grasping masses on their mighty techno-shoulders and not borderline sociopaths who'd send their own grandmother to the abbatoir if they thought they could make some money out of it.

kenoma wrote:
Searcher08 wrote:The other aspect was the documenting of a very deep shifting of power from Washington to Wall Street, with Robert Rubin admitting he was directly dictating aspects of American foriegn policy.

Again, is this new information? Wasn't all this covered much more intelligently and with greater consquence by Klein's Shock Doctrine?

Searcher08 wrote:I loved the non-linear approach and the fact that it is not stated as a legalistic set of assertions and argumentation, but as a web of interconnecting concepts and feedback loops - that actual models it's content in its method of presentation. I imagine it could be watched several times and much new discovered each time.

With respect, I think this is your way of saying that the documentary lacked any coherence, and that you're not entirely sure what it was on about. I would expect an historical documentary to inform me about a given period of time. Why should I have to watch it several times to unlock its secrets?
The history of the IMF and related entities is 'knowable' and should not be the object of mystery-mongering.


It's not a straight historical documentary. None of his stuff is like that, so I'm not entirely sure what you were expecting?
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