Theophobia

[American Dream]

Still and all, good people, I do not wish to dissect the merits of anyone's faith. I just want to make it clear that people of faith are subject to ridicule on this board and elsewhere. That others have faith frightens a great many people, and I think that's a shame.

So what exactly then do you mean when you say the word "faith"? It is a term that you have thrown around very loosely for many, many pages. On the last page you popped out with some statements which might bring us a little closer to knowing what you mean when you say "faith":

I didn't say I had faith in a religion. I said I had faith. Faith that my thoughts and actions do impact the world.

In an effort to clear this up, may I ask you these questions:

- Do you have faith that there is a force of evil and a force of good and that they are in active opposition to one another, battling for supremacy?
- Do you believe that you can interact with intelligence that is not directly observable?

Still and all, good people, I do not wish to dissect the merits of anyone's faith. I just want to make it clear that people of faith are subject to ridicule on this board and elsewhere. That others have faith frightens a great many people, and I think that's a shame.

So if you're going to assert this special status to people who have "faith", can you make a clear statement regarding what you mean by that word?

"Faith" after all can- and does- mean very different things to different people...

[Canadian_watcher]

Still and all, good people, I do not wish to dissect the merits of anyone's faith. I just want to make it clear that people of faith are subject to ridicule on this board and elsewhere. That others have faith frightens a great many people, and I think that's a shame.

So what exactly then do you mean when you say the word "faith"? It is a term that you have thrown around very loosely for many, many pages. Here on this last page you have popped out with some statements which might bring us a little closer to knowing what you mean when you say "faith":

I didn't say I had faith in a religion. I said I had faith. Faith that my thoughts and actions do impact the world.

In an effort to clear this up, may I ask you these questions:

- Do you have faith that there is a force of evil and a force of good and that they are in active opposition to one another, battling for supremacy?
- Do you believe that you can interact with intelligence that is not directly observable?

Still and all, good people, I do not wish to dissect the merits of anyone's faith. I just want to make it clear that people of faith are subject to ridicule on this board and elsewhere. That others have faith frightens a great many people, and I think that's a shame.

So if you're going to assert this special status to people who have "faith", can you make a clear statement regarding what you mean by that word?

"Faith" after all can- and does- mean very different things to different people...

No special status, although I am coming to believe that faith might be like any other sense-ability, perhaps. Some people can't hear.. some can tell you the day of the week for any date given to them... some can't feel empathy ... etc. etc. In that regard I suppose those with faith might have an extra sense that people without faith don't have, I guess.

Faith to me is the ability to believe in something that can't be proven.

[American Dream]

Faith to me is the ability to believe in something that can't be proven.

So this is the sole defining characteristic of the people that you say are being so oppressed here on this board and in the world in general?

[Canadian_watcher]

Faith to me is the ability to believe in something that can't be proven.

So this is the sole defining characteristic of the people that you say are being so oppressed here on this board and in the world in general?

Are you being thick just to get under my skin?

edit: You tell me, AD. Is it the sole defining characteristic? Because I've been insulted due to my faith, and this is what faith means to me.

Given that, you tell me.

[American Dream]

Faith to me is the ability to believe in something that can't be proven.

So this is the sole defining characteristic of the people that you say are being so oppressed here on this board and in the world in general?

Are you being thick just to get under my skin?

So let's see- you are saying that the problem is that people who believe in something that can't be proven are being oppressed by people who don't believe in something that can't be proven?

This sounds like a pretty vague formulation of a (supposed) problem...

Do you really expect us to take this seriously?

[Canadian_watcher]

Faith to me is the ability to believe in something that can't be proven.

So this is the sole defining characteristic of the people that you say are being so oppressed here on this board and in the world in general?

Are you being thick just to get under my skin?

So let's see- you are saying that the problem is that people who believe in something that can't be proven are being oppressed by people who don't believe in something that can't be proven?

This sounds like a pretty vague formulation of a (supposed) problem...

Do you really expect us to take this seriously?

At this point, no, I don't.

[Canadian_watcher]

I'm just listening to that Adam Curtis documentary "Machines of Loving Grace." It touches on some of this is a round about way, particularly the part about Rwanda (and how science was used to justify the superiority of Tutsis in Rwanda, and also the story line of Mathematician Price who was a committed rationalist but ended up following the teachings of Jesus to the literal letter.

[American Dream]

Faith to me is the ability to believe in something that can't be proven.

So this is the sole defining characteristic of the people that you say are being so oppressed here on this board and in the world in general?

Are you being thick just to get under my skin?

So let's see- you are saying that the problem is that people who believe in something that can't be proven are being oppressed by people who don't believe in something that can't be proven?

This sounds like a pretty vague formulation of a (supposed) problem...

Do you really expect us to take this seriously?

At this point, no, I don't.

Maybe you could try defining what you mean by "faith" a bit more than "the ability to believe in something that can't be proven" and see what happens...

Or do you actually like the wiggle room that comes from all that vagueness?

[Canadian_watcher]

^ AD...

What are you looking for here, my own personal Ten Commandments? Or maybe ten wouldn't be enough? Do you want me to name a god or goddess or multiples of same? Should I tell you when it started in history and the crusades it has led? Do you want me to invent rituals? None of that is going to happen.

I have categorized the way my faith works a dozen times in this thread, and on other threads at other times.

What I'm getting from you is that you are not satisfied that you have enough to go on to critique me with. You want my faith to be flawed like the flaws you see in religions. I'm sure my faith *is* flawed.. I'm still learning. I'm sorry if it doesn't give you any 'GOTCHA' material.

[American Dream]

^ AD...

What are you looking for here, my own personal Ten Commandments? Or maybe ten wouldn't be enough? Do you want me to name a god or goddess or multiples of same? Should I tell you when it started in history and the crusades it has led? Do you want me to invent rituals? None of that is going to happen.

I have categorized the way my faith works a dozen times in this thread, and on other threads at other times.

What I'm getting from you is that you are not satisfied that you have enough to go on to critique me with. You want my faith to be flawed like the flaws you see in religions. I'm sure my faith *is* flawed.. I'm still learning. I'm sorry if it doesn't give you any 'GOTCHA' material.

I think what I was asking for from you was a reasonable definition of what you claim the problem is..

The fact that you are unwilling or unable to provide this is significant.

So I guess you are saying that people who are dubious about David Icke based on his Reptilian Theory and Nazi-esque material are somehow inherently oppressive to those who have faith him, merely by expressing their skepticism?

[Canadian_watcher]

this has nothing to do with David Icke for the love of whatever you love!'

the problem is clearly defined in the OP, and also in direct response to you in THIS VERY THREAD!

I cannot continue to discourse with you, fella. it's a

[vanlose kid]

^ AD...

What are you looking for here, my own personal Ten Commandments? Or maybe ten wouldn't be enough? Do you want me to name a god or goddess or multiples of same? Should I tell you when it started in history and the crusades it has led? Do you want me to invent rituals? None of that is going to happen.

I have categorized the way my faith works a dozen times in this thread, and on other threads at other times.

What I'm getting from you is that you are not satisfied that you have enough to go on to critique me with. You want my faith to be flawed like the flaws you see in religions. I'm sure my faith *is* flawed.. I'm still learning. I'm sorry if it doesn't give you any 'GOTCHA' material.

I think what I was asking for from you was a reasonable definition of what you claim the problem is..

The fact that you are unwilling or unable to provide this is significant.

So I guess you are saying that people who are dubious about David Icke based on his Reptilian Theory and Nazi-esque material are somehow inherently oppressive to those who have faith him, merely by expressing their skepticism?

i see what you did there. you must feel unimaginably smooth and critical thinkerish. pat yourself on the back. your critical thinking "skills" are a wonder to behold.

*

[wintler2]

Do you believe that good and evil are forces beyond that which men and women deduce for themselves?

No. Since Good/evil are just labels, notices asserting a value judgement, i fail to see how they can be 'forces'. The good/evil dichotomy itself is the single simplest mindfuck there is, and if i had my druthers we'd learn how always-wrong and dangerous it is before we learn the alphabet.

[wintler2]

What I see here is the conflation of critical thinking with reductionism.

I agree. Reductionism is the strawman being pilloried, but critical thinking is the real target, the sworn enemy of the many churches of received wisdom.

Perhaps, but when you use the appeal to ridicule fallacy, you weaken your own argument. It cuts both ways.

-ST

Apologies if i weaken your argument by association. Mine are never very strong.

[Canadian_watcher]

Do you believe that good and evil are forces beyond that which men and women deduce for themselves?

No. Since Good/evil are just labels, notices asserting a value judgement, i fail to see how they can be 'forces'. The good/evil dichotomy itself is the single simplest mindfuck there is, and if i had my druthers we'd learn how always-wrong and dangerous it is before we learn the alphabet.

Okay, well the reason I asked is to demonstrate an aspect of my faith.
I do believe that.