Theophobia

[wintler2]

i see what you did there. you must feel unimaginably smooth and critical thinkerish. pat yourself on the back. your critical thinking "skills" are a wonder to behold.

I know, wasn't it outrageous, asking CW to explain what this stick she was beating us over the head with was all about. Turns out, nothing at all, and AD is the bad guy?!

If theres a bad guy on this thread i wanna be it, and i'll stop at nothing..

[American Dream]

^ AD...

What are you looking for here, my own personal Ten Commandments? Or maybe ten wouldn't be enough? Do you want me to name a god or goddess or multiples of same? Should I tell you when it started in history and the crusades it has led? Do you want me to invent rituals? None of that is going to happen.

I have categorized the way my faith works a dozen times in this thread, and on other threads at other times.

What I'm getting from you is that you are not satisfied that you have enough to go on to critique me with. You want my faith to be flawed like the flaws you see in religions. I'm sure my faith *is* flawed.. I'm still learning. I'm sorry if it doesn't give you any 'GOTCHA' material.

I think what I was asking for from you was a reasonable definition of what you claim the problem is..

The fact that you are unwilling or unable to provide this is significant.

So I guess you are saying that people who are dubious about David Icke based on his Reptilian Theory and Nazi-esque material are somehow inherently oppressive to those who have faith him, merely by expressing their skepticism?

i see what you did there. you must feel unimaginably smooth and critical thinkerish. pat yourself on the back. your critical thinking "skills" are a wonder to behold.

*

I was pretty shocked by C_w's advocacy of David Icke because he's so spiritual and how this provided her with the ability to slough off and ignore the criticism of his position towards jews and "reptilians". This is the kind of stuff that gives spirituality a bad name!

When in the midst of that, she started this thread which seems to assert that faith-based people can claim that special mantle of being oppressed by those bad people who don't agree with them, I certainly did think that the two were connected.

This matters a great deal to me because I think that our world is in great trouble and that conspiracy knowledge can play a very important role in helping make things better.

The disinformation and hateful shit is therefore very, very serious and I actually do cling to a faith in many, many people here on this board- and in the conspiracy world in general- that we can do much better in terms of being discriminating and clear thinkers.

I'm that way regarding people in the alternative circles that I know in general- often disappointed but eternally hopeful that we can and will do great things. So I suppose that's a kind of faith, too, but one that will give no free pass to crypto-fascists and disinformation peddlers...



.

[vanlose kid]

i see what you did there. you must feel unimaginably smooth and critical thinkerish. pat yourself on the back. your critical thinking "skills" are a wonder to behold.

I know, wasn't it outrageous, asking CW to explain what this stick she was beating us over the head with was all about. Turns out, nothing at all, and AD is the bad guy?!

If theres a bad guy on this thread i wanna be it, and i'll stop at nothing..

wintler, if you go back and look at the passage you'll see that AD did quite a bit more than merely ask CW to explain herself. you can't miss it really, unless you do it wittingly.

*

[vanlose kid]

^ AD...

What are you looking for here, my own personal Ten Commandments? Or maybe ten wouldn't be enough? Do you want me to name a god or goddess or multiples of same? Should I tell you when it started in history and the crusades it has led? Do you want me to invent rituals? None of that is going to happen.

I have categorized the way my faith works a dozen times in this thread, and on other threads at other times.

What I'm getting from you is that you are not satisfied that you have enough to go on to critique me with. You want my faith to be flawed like the flaws you see in religions. I'm sure my faith *is* flawed.. I'm still learning. I'm sorry if it doesn't give you any 'GOTCHA' material.

I think what I was asking for from you was a reasonable definition of what you claim the problem is..

The fact that you are unwilling or unable to provide this is significant.

So I guess you are saying that people who are dubious about David Icke based on his Reptilian Theory and Nazi-esque material are somehow inherently oppressive to those who have faith him, merely by expressing their skepticism?

i see what you did there. you must feel unimaginably smooth and critical thinkerish. pat yourself on the back. your critical thinking "skills" are a wonder to behold.

*

I was pretty shocked by C_w's advocacy of David Icke because he's so spiritual and how this provided her with the ability to slough off and ignore the criticism of his position towards jews and "reptilians". This is the kind of stuff that gives spirituality a bad name!

When in the midst of that, she started this thread which seems to assert that faith-based people can claim that special mantle of being oppressed by those bad people who don't agree with them, I certainly did think that the two were connected.

This matters a great deal to me because I think that our world is in great trouble and that conspiracy knowledge can play a very important role in helping make things better.

The disinformation and hateful shit is therefore very, very serious and I actually do cling to a faith in many, many people here on this board- and in the conspiracy world in general- that we can do much better in terms of being discriminating and clear thinkers.

I'm that way regarding people in the alternative circles that I know in general- often dissapointed but eternally hopeful that we can and will do great things. So I suppose that's a kind of faith, too, but one that will give no free pass to crypro-fascists and disinformation peddlers...

fair enough as it goes, i actually agree with you, but there's one minor point here where we don't. i haven't seen it mentioned anywhere by C_w that she buys into Icke lock-stock-barrel and the fish in it, nor have i seen her say that she shares Icke's faith. so conflating the two in order to beat her contention regarding people of faith, in general, being oppressed doesn't do much for your promotion of critical thinking. that is all.


on edit: if you disagree with her contention then argue your point and seek to disprove it, adhering to the tenets of critical thinking you so loudly profess. painting her as a crypto-nazi-fascist is not that. it's not even argument, much less thinking.

*

[wintler2]

wintler, if you go back and look at the passage you'll see that AD did quite a bit more than merely ask CW to explain herself. you can't miss it really, unless you do it wittingly.

You'll have to quote and explain to make that mud stick.

[American Dream]

fair enough as it goes, i actually agree with you, but there's one minor point here where we don't. i haven't seen it mentioned anywhere by C that she buys into Icke lock-stock-barrel and the fish in it, nor have i seen her say that she shares Icke's faith. so conflating the two in order to beat her contention regarding people of faith, in general, being oppressed doesn't do much for your promotion of critical thinking. that is all.

I never said she buys into Icke "lock, stock and barrel"- I know she doesn't- but I did say that I didn't agree with:

C_w's advocacy of David Icke because he's so spiritual and how this provided her with the ability to slough off and ignore the criticism of his position towards jews and "reptilians".

[vanlose kid]

wintler, if you go back and look at the passage you'll see that AD did quite a bit more than merely ask CW to explain herself. you can't miss it really, unless you do it wittingly.

You'll have to quote and explain to make that mud stick.

look at the red passage quoted in the post above yours, it's a quote of a quote quoted in the post is posted and to which you responded.

*

[vanlose kid]

fair enough as it goes, i actually agree with you, but there's one minor point here where we don't. i haven't seen it mentioned anywhere by C that she buys into Icke lock-stock-barrel and the fish in it, nor have i seen her say that she shares Icke's faith. so conflating the two in order to beat her contention regarding people of faith, in general, being oppressed doesn't do much for your promotion of critical thinking. that is all.

I never said she buys into Icke "lock, stock and barrel"- I know she doesn't- but I did say that I didn't agree with:

C_w's advocacy of David Icke because he's so spiritual and how this provided her with the ability to slough off and ignore the criticism of his position towards jews and "reptilians".

what does that have to do with you asking her regarding her faith? you're asking her to define it for you. she says it's pretty amorphous but felt and that's all she's prepared to say about it. what does that have to do with Icke and reptilians?

*

[brainpanhandler]

My two cents:

$.01 - The world is in much greater need of more critical thinking than it is more faith.

$.01 - It takes a great deal more courage to live this life without faith than it does with it.

one day you will come to the realization that neither of those statements is true.

My first reaction upon reading your response yesterday was to think that you were being superciliously dismissive as a smoke screen. But rather than react to that I decided to sleep on it a night, because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to come up with some more substantive interpretation of your response by trying to imagine myself into a headspace where your response would be my response to what I expressed.

Honestly, I consider my first one cent to be so axiomatic it is beyond reproach of any sort.

Does the world need more of this? -

Critical Thinking as Defined by the National Council for Excellence in Critical Thinking, 1987

Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.

Continued ...

http://www.criticalthinking.org/aboutCT ... inking.cfm

or more of this? -

the ability to believe in something that can't be proven

I don't see how any reasonable person with a grasp of how fucked up the world is could answer that the world is in greater need of the latter than the former.

Which can only mean that in this instance I have to conclude you are being unreasonable and/or haven't a clue how fucked up the world is. I don't believe that either is true of you as a person in general. Therefore I have to conclude that in this case your just being momentarily obstinate and allowing your ego to distort your thinking.

As for my second point:

$.01 - It takes a great deal more courage to live this life without faith than it does with it.

I accept your definition of faith and when I wrote this that is the definition I use, roughly. But I am referring to a faith that is less generic than it sounds. For instance I don't mean the sort of faith one needs to believe that the country of France exists even though I myself have never been there.

I just found it ironic that the op author, and yourself apparently, consider that intellectuals are frightened of people with a faith in god, when from my perspective one of the main reasons faith in god exists is to ward off the fear of the unknown. It is the faithful that are frightened of the dark and want their hand held by a benevolent god or goddess. It is the faithful that are frightened of living a life that has a terminal point for their egos.

Psalms 23:4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

My critical thinking and my understanding, they comfort me.

Death is terrifying to the point of needing faith to endure it only when one has not lived well.

We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing. - Bukowski

[wintler2]

wintler, if you go back and look at the passage you'll see that AD did quite a bit more than merely ask CW to explain herself. you can't miss it really, unless you do it wittingly.

You'll have to quote and explain to make that mud stick.

look at the red passage quoted in the post above yours, it's a quote of a quote quoted in the post is posted and to which you responded.

Okay, i see it. But this thread was spawned in the Jones-DMT thread, where criticism of Jones&Icke was somehow turned into an attack on faith..

But I'm not talking about Christianity. I'm talking about anyone who says they have faith - even if that faith isn't tied to a religion. You cannot tell me that there isn't a prejudice, especially noticeable here on this board but prevalent in the "left" almost everywhere, against people who are spiritual.

Some might like to pretend this is now an entirely separate argument, but i don't buy that.

[vanlose kid]

wintler, if you go back and look at the passage you'll see that AD did quite a bit more than merely ask CW to explain herself. you can't miss it really, unless you do it wittingly.

You'll have to quote and explain to make that mud stick.

look at the red passage quoted in the post above yours, it's a quote of a quote quoted in the post is posted and to which you responded.

Okay, i see it. But this thread was spawned in the Jones-DMT thread, where criticism of Jones&Icke was somehow turned into an attack on faith..

But I'm not talking about Christianity. I'm talking about anyone who says they have faith - even if that faith isn't tied to a religion. You cannot tell me that there isn't a prejudice, especially noticeable here on this board but prevalent in the "left" almost everywhere, against people who are spiritual.

Some might like to pretend this is now an entirely separate argument, but i don't buy that.

here we go again. C_w is making a distinction, not pretending to make one. it's a fairly common distinction actually, the one between faith and religion, kind of like the one between ethics and morality. anyway, she's free to do so. you're free to argue that there isn't a meaningful distinction: or as you say not buy it. but there's no need for you to disparage her, is there?

*

[sunny]

I do not believe faith and critical thinking are mutually exclusive. Faith should NOT be blind but the result of questioning, investigation, and experience.

For the record, I believe the bible when it says we came from dust and to dust we shall return. This notion of an 'afterlife' stems from the first lie, that Eve would 'never die' if she ate the fruit.

[wintler2]

here we go again. C_w is making a distinction, not pretending to make one. it's a fairly common distinction actually, the one between faith and religion, kind of like the one between ethics and morality.

here we go again. i shouldn't and don't care less what CWs faith or religion is - but neither give her the right to claim special knowledge or insight that she can't put on the table/provide evidence for.

anyway, she's free to do so. you're free to argue that there isn't a meaningful distinction: or as you say not buy it. but there's no need for you to disparage her, is there?
*

If i see a poster repeatedly claim that malign info is good info, and then run away and start a new thread about a different issue without meaningfully responding to criticism, then yes i do think there is a need for some disparagement. And i've said so and done so for years, since long before CW joined the board.

[Stephen Morgan]

I do not believe faith and critical thinking are mutually exclusive. Faith should NOT be blind but the result of questioning, investigation, and experience.

For the record, I believe the bible when it says we came from dust and to dust we shall return. This notion of an 'afterlife' stems from the first lie, that Eve would 'never die' if she ate the fruit.

Not the devil's fault. Wrong tree. All make mistakes.

[Canadian_watcher]

I was pretty shocked by C_w's advocacy of David Icke because he's so spiritual and how this provided her with the ability to slough off and ignore the criticism of his position towards jews and "reptilians". This is the kind of stuff that gives spirituality a bad name!

You have misread me pretty badly. Makes me wonder what else you mis-read and what causes this issue for you.

When in the midst of that, she started this thread which seems to assert that faith-based people can claim that special mantle of being oppressed by those bad people who don't agree with them, I certainly did think that the two were connected.

You are the one who introduced the word oppressed and the phrase "bad people."

This matters a great deal to me because I think that our world is in great trouble and that conspiracy knowledge can play a very important role in helping make things better.

We are completely on the same page here. The way I'm seeing it, there is a lot of good work being done in this world by people who are routinely dismissed by the 'mainstream.' I thought RI was a place where we can discard those tiresome mainstream taboos.

What I'm arguing here is that even on RI we are missing opportunities for the very same reason the mainstream does. Here on RI it is quite usual to see someone mocked, their research discarded, and their worth devalued if it is uncovered that they are people of faith. Just one example... Michael Cremo is a creationist; barracuda 'just had to point that out' in order to discredit him.

THAT's my problem. And really, it's everyone's problem.