Theophobia

[vanlose kid]

^^

i have no idea. never heard of rajneesh/osho before this thread. was just testing the language.

*

Plenty of links were given in my post and it would be easy enough to find more information on the topic, too.

Maybe you could research the topic a bit and then say something more about this. If you were completely uninformed about the situation when you made your comments, I would be curious to see if you still stand by them after finding out a bit about the situation.

well, see, my "comments" weren't geared toward the whole rajneesh business. but rather toward your use of language which i take as an expression of your thought processes and your, in my view, fairly idiosyncratic form of logic. i find it mildly interesting. i wasn't saying anything about rajneesh at all.

*

[American Dream]

^^

i have no idea. never heard of rajneesh/osho before this thread. was just testing the language.

*

Plenty of links were given in my post and it would be easy enough to find more information on the topic, too.

Maybe you could research the topic a bit and then say something more about this. If you were completely uninformed about the situation when you made your comments, I would be curious to see if you still stand by them after finding out a bit about the situation.

well, see, my "comments" weren't geared toward the whole rajneesh business. but rather toward your use of language which i take as an expression of your thought processes and your, in my view, fairly idiosyncratic form of logic. i find it mildly interesting. i wasn't saying anything about rajneesh at all.

*

What was the point you think I was trying to make through that language?

[vanlose kid]

^^

not sure you made one really. a point, that is.

*

[American Dream]

^^

not sure you made one really. a point, that is.

*

Those words which you modified and/or parodied- do you have any impression at all of what they were saying?

[vanlose kid]

^^

not sure you made one really. a point, that is.

*

Those words which you modified and/or parodied- do you have any impression of all of what they were saying?

i wasn't sure what they were saying, that's why i tested them.

*

[American Dream]

^^

not sure you made one really. a point, that is.

*

Those words which you modified and/or parodied- do you have any impression of all of what they were saying?

i wasn't sure what they were saying, that's why i tested them.

*

Well, if what you wrote has no particular meaning in relation to what I wrote, then what can I say about it?

[Canadian_watcher]

disclaimer: I am so tired right now that this post might go down in history as the most wrongly worded, misspelt, confusing thing I've ever written.. we'll see. Take everything here to have been written in a spirit of peace & good will because that's how I'm feeling even if I'm clumsy and it doesn't come off that way.

I'm not "charging" you with anything,

it was just a turn of phrase. I didn't realize I'd used it twice in the same post ... my bad.

This is why I asked you early in the thread, when you insisted we were discussing "not religion, but faith", to describe what the outlines of your faith entail.

I hope I've done a better job of it now. I can see where it was a bit vague before .. I forget where I've posted what and to whom sometimes.

Because I don't think the issue at hand is one of a prejudice against "people of faith", for the reasons I described above. The issue in the OP, really, is a fear of Christianity, specifically.

On the one hand I see how terrible that OP is from many, many perspectives, but OTOH it has germinated a lively discussion! So..

Because, as we've seen, less than one percent of all Americans identify as atheist. And as we've noted, there are many, many valid reasons to fear Christians in this country which have nothing to do with the fact that they might have "faith".

that may be true. It certainly seems like there are a disproportionate number of very rabid and senseless 'Christians' from the US on the news, in the papers, on the streets.. engaging in all manner of idiocy with which I would never associate myself unless poised across the table from them in an interrogation room. Or some place like that.

What seems more likely is that academics live in a milieu of fearing the imposition of Christian doctrine upon their fields of study

fair enough. Very fair. Hopefully academics can start to see past it - use their powers of critical thinking to discern whether someone of faith is 'one of those or just someone who has a side that is spiritual or even religious as long as they are true to the best teachings of it.

I think religious beliefs can and should be considered as to the moral effect they have on society, for better or worse.

me too. And that was kind of my aim here since one of the detrimental effects is that there is a polarization. People of 'fine scientific minds' ought to be taken seriously even after they have been found out to be Christian or Hindu or whatever.

The way I see it, if that doesn't happen, the terrorists (fundie Evangelicals or whatever group it is in the US causing all the trouble) have won.

Nice picture.

[vanlose kid]

^^

not sure you made one really. a point, that is.

*

Those words which you modified and/or parodied- do you have any impression of all of what they were saying?

i wasn't sure what they were saying, that's why i tested them.

*

Well, if what you wrote has no particular meaning in relation to what I wrote, then what can I say about it?

^^

what could you say about it? i have no idea. i couldn't figure out what you were saying to begin with, how am i to know what you could say about something you apparently said which makes no sense to me?

here it is again:

...


For the record, I know of no conclusive evidence that Rajneesh/Osho was knowingly involved in all the evil shit that occured at Rajneeshpuram. However, that only serves to reinforce one of the key points of this whole thread to me: Rajneesh's "faith" may have been truly strong, he probably was having all kinds of mystical and ecstatic experiences during those years.

This does not mean he was aware and discerning enough- nor sufficiently morally active- to stop the many questionable things that happened during his time there. Ultimately his mystic bliss and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin.

let's just take the last bit in red. what is that? a hypothesis?


*

[American Dream]

^^

not sure you made one really. a point, that is.

*

Those words which you modified and/or parodied- do you have any impression of all of what they were saying?

i wasn't sure what they were saying, that's why i tested them.

*

Well, if what you wrote has no particular meaning in relation to what I wrote, then what can I say about it?

^^

what could you say about it? i have no idea. i couldn't figure out what you were saying to begin with, how am i to know what you could say about something you apparently said which makes no sense to me?

here it is again:

...


For the record, I know of no conclusive evidence that Rajneesh/Osho was knowingly involved in all the evil shit that occured at Rajneeshpuram. However, that only serves to reinforce one of the key points of this whole thread to me: Rajneesh's "faith" may have been truly strong, he probably was having all kinds of mystical and ecstatic experiences during those years.

This does not mean he was aware and discerning enough- nor sufficiently morally active- to stop the many questionable things that happened during his time there. Ultimately his mystic bliss and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin.

let's just take the last bit in red. what is that? a hypothesis?


*

I don't see any red on my screen but sure, you could call the last sentence a hypothesis, but I would just call it an opinion- it's not meant to be so scientific, really.

What did you think I meant to say or imply about faith, morality, action, mysticism, Rajneesh etc.?

I'm asking because only when I know what you were "hearing" in my words can I make a meaningful response to the way you turned those words around. Right now, I'm not getting what exactly you meant to be saying...

[vanlose kid]

^^

for the record, here's the original:

...


For the record, I know of no conclusive evidence that Rajneesh/Osho was knowingly involved in all the evil shit that occured at Rajneeshpuram. However, that only serves to reinforce one of the key points of this whole thread to me: Rajneesh's "faith" may have been truly strong, he probably was having all kinds of mystical and ecstatic experiences during those years.

This does not mean he was aware and discerning enough- nor sufficiently morally active- to stop the many questionable things that happened during his time there. Ultimately his mystic bliss and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin.

and here's the altered version:

...


For the record, I know of no conclusive evidence that NN was knowingly involved in all the evil shit that occured at X. However, that only serves to reinforce one of the key points of this whole thread to me: NN's atheism may have been truly strong, he probably was engaged in all kinds of critical thinking during those years.

This does not mean he was aware and discerning enough- nor sufficiently morally active- to stop the many questionable things that happened during his time there. Ultimately his scientific materialism and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin.

i didn't turn your words around. all i did was substitute certain phrases with certain others to see what happened. neither version makes much sense. they both seem to be saying a lot but when you look at them closely they kind of fall in on themselves.

*

[Searcher08]

It was a much more complex mix than one person being responsible - it was a scary case of enanatiadromy - something turning into its opposite.

There were elements of

Genuinely psychopathic / sociopathic leadership
Animal Farm being reenacted
Rajneesh becoming addicted to pain medication - and being easily led and cocooned
from people by a 'priesthood'
A Jonestown Us vs Them mindset

It was doomed from the moment Rajneesh knowingly let Sheela came into organisational control. I have seen this happen in business where one person can destroy a company culture.

I remember meeting people who came back from Rajneeshpuram in 1984 and they actually looked like they were drugged (TBH it wouldnt have surprised me if they were) It later turned into a rotten destructive cult. When he left America and went back to India, he was embittered and worn out. From someone who wrote some of the greatest
commentraies on Zen, Christianity, Islam, he had a hell of a fall.

Bhagwan: The God That Failed by Hugh Milne is the definitive book, wriiten by his former photographer and bodyguard

http://truemilena.blogspot.com/2006/11/ ... ailed.html

[American Dream]

^^

for the record, here's the original:

...


For the record, I know of no conclusive evidence that Rajneesh/Osho was knowingly involved in all the evil shit that occured at Rajneeshpuram. However, that only serves to reinforce one of the key points of this whole thread to me: Rajneesh's "faith" may have been truly strong, he probably was having all kinds of mystical and ecstatic experiences during those years.

This does not mean he was aware and discerning enough- nor sufficiently morally active- to stop the many questionable things that happened during his time there. Ultimately his mystic bliss and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin.

and here's the altered version:

...


For the record, I know of no conclusive evidence that NN was knowingly involved in all the evil shit that occured at X. However, that only serves to reinforce one of the key points of this whole thread to me: NN's atheism may have been truly strong, he probably was engaged in all kinds of critical thinking during those years.

This does not mean he was aware and discerning enough- nor sufficiently morally active- to stop the many questionable things that happened during his time there. Ultimately his scientific materialism and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin.

i didn't turn your words around. all i did was substitute certain phrases with certain others to see what happened. neither version makes much sense. they both seem to be saying a lot but when you look at them closely they kind of fall in on themselves.

*

vk-

I'm going to repeat the question from from my last post:

What did you think I meant to say or imply about faith, morality, action, mysticism, Rajneesh etc.?

[American Dream]

It was a much more complex mix than one person being responsible - it was a scary case of enanatiadromy - something turning into its opposite.

There were elements of

Genuinely psychopathic / sociopathic leadership
Animal Farm being reenacted
Rajneesh becoming addicted to pain medication - and being easily led and cocooned
from people by a 'priesthood'
A Jonestown Us vs Them mindset

It was doomed from the moment Rajneesh knowingly let Sheela came into organisational control. I have seen this happen in business where one person can destroy a company culture.

I remember meeting people who came back from Rajneeshpuram in 1984 and they actually looked like they were drugged (TBH it wouldnt have surprised me if they were) It later turned into a rotten destructive cult. When he left America and went back to India, he was embittered and worn out. From someone who wrote some of the greatest
commentraies on Zen, Christianity, Islam, he had a hell of a fall.

Bhagwan: The God That Failed by Hugh Milne is the definitive book, wriiten by his former photographer and bodyguard

http://truemilena.blogspot.com/2006/11/ ... ailed.html

This is a very cogent perspective on Rajneeshpuram. I wouldn't disagree with any of it. I knew some of the people also who fled around the time of the fall. I think it was all very intoxicating to them. And later, disillusioning.

[vanlose kid]

...

vk-

I'm going to repeat the question from from my last post:
What did you think I meant to say or imply about faith, morality, action, mysticism, Rajneesh etc.?

i've already answered that, but here it is again. this is what you wrote.

...


For the record, I know of no conclusive evidence that Rajneesh/Osho was knowingly involved in all the evil shit that occured at Rajneeshpuram. However, that only serves to reinforce one of the key points of this whole thread to me: Rajneesh's "faith" may have been truly strong, he probably was having all kinds of mystical and ecstatic experiences during those years.

This does not mean he was aware and discerning enough- nor sufficiently morally active- to stop the many questionable things that happened during his time there. Ultimately his mystic bliss and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin.

in other words:

1) you have no conclusive evidence rajneesh was involved in evil shit.
2) rajneesh's "faith" may have been truly strong.
3) he may have been having all kinds of mystical and ecstatic experiences.
4) although 2 and 3 may be true (or false, no one knows) this does not mean that he was aware and discerning enough to know there was evil shit going on (he may have been aware and discerning and he may not have).
5) although 2 and 3 may be true (or false, no one knows) this does not mean he was sufficiently morally active (he may have been sufficiently morally active and he may not have been so).
6) 1-5 serve to reinforce one of the key points of this thread (which one is not entirely clear, take a pick).
7) Ultimately his mystic bliss and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin. (this does not follow from 1-6 but who cares at this point? it's possible so let's just throw it out there.)

...

what is this, 1-7, meant to say? what does it say? anything?

on edit: note that the name "rajneesh" in 1 and 2, above, can logically function as a place-holder (cf., the alternate version i gave earlier). you can substitute any name you want and the result would be the same.

on further edit: re 7:

p1) rajneesh may have experienced loads of mystic bliss,
p2) bad stuff did occur (whether rajneesh knew of or was involved in it no one knows),
C) so p1 and p2 may ultimately be two sides of the same coin. (what [is the] coin? does C follow from p1 and p2?)


*

[American Dream]

...

vk-

I'm going to repeat the question from from my last post:
What did you think I meant to say or imply about faith, morality, action, mysticism, Rajneesh etc.?

i've already answered that, but here it is again. this is what you wrote.

...


For the record, I know of no conclusive evidence that Rajneesh/Osho was knowingly involved in all the evil shit that occured at Rajneeshpuram. However, that only serves to reinforce one of the key points of this whole thread to me: Rajneesh's "faith" may have been truly strong, he probably was having all kinds of mystical and ecstatic experiences during those years.

This does not mean he was aware and discerning enough- nor sufficiently morally active- to stop the many questionable things that happened during his time there. Ultimately his mystic bliss and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin.

in other words:

1) you have no conclusive evidence rajneesh was involved in evil shit.
2) rajneesh's "faith" may have been truly strong.
3) he may have been having all kinds of mystical and ecstatic experiences.
4) although 2 and 3 may be true (or false, no one knows) this does not mean that he was aware and discerning enough to know there was evil shit going on (he may have been aware and discerning and he may not have).
5) although 2 and 3 may be true (or false, no one knows) this does not mean he was sufficiently morally active (he may have been sufficiently morally active and he may not have been so).
6) 1-5 serve to reinforce one of the key points of this thread (which one is not entirely clear, take a pick).
7) Ultimately his mystic bliss and the bad stuff which did indeed occur may be two sides of the same coin. (this does not follow from 1-6 but who cares at this point? it's possible so let's just throw it out there.)

...

what is this, 1-7, meant to say? what does it say? anything?

on edit: note that the name "rajneesh" in 1 and 2, above, can logically function as a place-holder (cf., the alternate version i gave earlier). you can substitute any name you want and the result would be the same.

on further edit: re 7:

p1) rajneesh may have experienced loads of mystic bliss,
p2) bad stuff did occur (whether rajneesh knew of or was involved in it no one knows),
C) so p1 and p2 may ultimately be two sides of the same coin. (what [is the] coin? does C follow from p1 and p2?)


*

vk-

I think you're understanding what I wrote originally to some degree, though if you never knew who Rajneesh was, never read anything about him, this would be limited.

I'm trying to be fair to Rajneesh and acknowledge that while evil shit was going on, the record is not clear how much he did or did not know. It could be I suppose that it was Sheela, his associate running everything and that he knew nothing really about it.

There is no doubt that Rajneesh/Osho was an accomplished mystic and was embroiled in all sorts of ecstatic experience, as were his followers.

However, Rajneesh's "great spiritual attainment" did not prevent really bad things from going down at his community.

So my point was not to say "faith bad" or "faith good" but to use this example of further evidence of my ongoing point, which is:

Spiritual "faith" in and of itself is no guarantor of ethical behavior individually, nor of decent social politics, nor that critical thinking is being used in general.