Huge explosion in Oslo

[barracuda]

There seems to be an interesting disconnect between on the one hand an expectation that the information we're getting, filtered through the police and the reporters, ought to be perfectly accurate minute-by-minute, and on the other hand that we don't trust a single bit of the information we're getting. How do we know anyone had been killed at all, or if this event even happened? We only read about it in the news.

[MacCruiskeen]

This is complete bullshit, vk. You know exactly what point I'm making, so kindly stop putting daft words in my mouth.

And kindly stop insisting at every opportunity that Norwegians are some kind of innocent-but-retarded cross between Hobbits & tapeworms and presenting this as an answer to literally every question. It's getting old.

[MacCruiskeen]

There seems to be an interesting disconnect between on the one hand an expectation that the information we're getting, filtered through the police and the reporters, ought to be perfectly accurate minute-by-minute, and on the other hand that we don't trust a single bit of the information we're getting. How do we know anyone had been killed at all, or if this event even happened? We only read about it in the news.

No. There's just the legitimate expectation that the police in one of the world's richest and most developed nations (with a world-renowned education system to boot) can actually:

a) move faster than snails on Valium, especially in an emergency

b) count correctly, without even using their fingers and toes or mouthing the numbers

and:

c) distinguish between real dead bodies and imaginary ones.

It's not a lot to ask, is it?

[Harvey]

Image 1


Image 2



Some interesting points on these two images attributed to Wolfgang Rattay from the telegraph. They probably aren't indicative of anything other than poor journalism.

1) Look at the hand in image 1, the fingers are cut off before the knuckle and stray pixels are ghosting through the paper he appears to be reading. The hand has been edited. Why?

2) The reflection on the rear window of the curb is far too high to accomodate the angle of view and the apparent position of the curb in the reflection on the body work below. There are double yellow lines on the car body but not in the rear window. the rear window does not appear to continue the curb line of the front two windows, indicating a different plane than the two front windows although it appears to be on the same plane otherwise. The rear window appears to have been edited. Why?

3) In image 2 Breivik doesn't appear as foreshortened as he should be, his hand and the paper appear too far forward. There might also be an issue with the rubber seal at the top of the middle window, but it could be a reflection on the car body.

Probably nothing.

[StarmanSkye]

Ahabs other leg wrote:

"... and a deliberate blow dealt to the credibility of the "system protectors" in order to sow fear among the public."

Hmm, that sure rings a bell, its what the proto-Fascist/NAZI hardliners did in Germany to discredit and destabilize the Weimar Republic as various factions were fighting to establish their own legitimacy, attacking targets of opportunity (like Socialists, Communists, outsiders ie. Gypseys, Poles, Russians, Bolsheviks, Jewish Intellectual and financies, and Jews-in-general) around which to gather broadbased public and by which to intimidate criticism and opposition. Tho Breivik's planned-strategy has none of the hallmarks of a cohesive, organized or even well-thought-out plan to galvinize a hardline movement. His choice of targets baffles me.

[sunny]

the event was more of a camp/music festival thing. i doubt they had checklists of participants. everything seemed pretty laid back.

Whether they had a checklist is surely find-outable. But even if we grant for the sake of argument that they didn't: Where did those 17 non-existent bodies come from? Or to put it another way: Exactly what were the police counting when they counted seventeen bodies too many? (Sorry if this sounds gruesome, but it's a legitimate question, in fact an inevitable one.)

As Ahab said: Announcing the missing or unaccounted-for as dead is, very decidedly, not standard police practice. For a start, they don't want to distress the relatives unnecessarily. People are only ever declared dead by the police when their bodies have been found and reliably identified (or have been missing for literally decades).

the po-po probably announced the reported dead and missing according to witness accounts etc. assuming the worst. pros do panic sometimes, ask Joe.

I have to say this rush to promote the Whoopsie Theory at all costs is starting to get on my nerves. So in addition to being prone to uncontrollable panics and preternaturally slow to respond, we're now being asked to believe that the poor Norwegian police are literally innumerate. So who gets them dressed in the mornings?

Thank you for talking sense.

[lupercal]

Tho Breivik's planned-strategy has none of the hallmarks of a cohesive, organized or even well-thought-out plan to galvinize a hardline movement. His choice of targets baffles me.

Bingo. It doesn't need to make sense; in fact, it's not supposed to. Who remembes wtf the Symbionese Liberation Army was all about? The story changes every time I look it up, but everybody remembers Patty Hearst. Ditto the guy who flew into the Texas fed building, ditto McVeigh , Kaczynskii, and Cho, Harris and Klebold for that matter. Add rambling nutjob Zacarias Moussaoui, add the shoe bomber, hell add the 19 hijackers. It never makes a lot of sense but the incoherence is part of the show, also a spook thumbprint at least in my view.

[barracuda]

There's just the legitimate expectation that the police in one of the world's richest and most developed nations (with a world-renowned education system to boot) can actually:

a) move faster than snails on Valium, especially in an emergency

b) count correctly, without even using their fingers and toes or mouthing the numbers

and:

c) distinguish between real dead bodies and imaginary ones.

It's not a lot to ask, is it?

Personally I don't think you're appreciating the logistical difficulties encountered by the police in the rural setting of the island surroundings. Looking at the timeline provided by Peachtree Pam, the shootings began at about 1700 hours, and even the local Buskerud police didn't arrive at the scene til 1752 after getting the first calls from the island at 1726. Realistically, from what we think we know, by the time that first call reached local police, some thirty people were already dead. Let's say the best case scenario had occurred, and the local police had been able to reach the island just minutes after arriving rather than a full twenty minutes later when the SWAT team did. We're still looking at a full hour of killing time since the first shot was fired. Is there any outcome here which would have seemed like an acceptable toll in terms of police response? Probably not.

Why did the first call take twenty five minutes to be placed? Hard to say, but it seems he killed the hired officer and the event organiser first, and then managed to convince the kids that he was there as a real policeman so they'd come close enough to shoot.

Regarding the body count, they are still looking for bodies in the water. People were fleeing the island by any means available. They were avoiding police at all costs, because of the killer's ruse. It's still unclear how many are dead or wounded or missing.

I have to say this rush to promote the Whoopsie Theory at all costs is starting to get on my nerves.

People are trying to make sense of what has happened. It's only natural. What gets on my nerves is the rush to see who can be the most conspiratorially oriented in the abscence of facts. There are still people, Harvey for example, who doubt that Breivik even actually exists at all. Not only are the pictures of Breivik considered to be "faked" on the order of Oswald's "backyard" photos (something I'm not fully convinced has ever been definitively proven in the first place), but now "they" are actually photoshopping his fingers out of pictures for unknown reasons. Meanwhile Breivik's father is speaking out publicly. At some point do we accept that Breivik is the killer here, at all? The very fact that we have so much information in some areas and so little in others makes it very easy to pin this as a conspiracy on.. who, exactly? Cui bono here, if this is a government op?

[tazmic]

BBC: Reports on Norwegian TV suggest Anders Behring Breivik was known to police prior to Friday's attacks. #oslo

[solace]

One more thing that has been disturbing me about all this.

Since ABB's image first appeared I've wondered how damn familiar he looks.

I swear I have seen that guy before. Either in real life or in a photo somewhere.

[barracuda]

Bingo. It doesn't need to make sense; in fact, it's not supposed to. Who remembes wtf the Symbionese Liberation Army was all about? The story changes every time I look it up, but everybody remembers Patty Hearst. Ditto the guy who flew into the Texas fed building, ditto McVeigh , Kaczynskii, and Cho, Harris and Klebold for that matter. Add rambling nutjob Zacarias Moussaoui, add the shoe bomber, hell add the 19 hijackers. It never makes a lot of sense but the incoherence is part of the show, also a spook thumbprint at least in my view.

What are you talking about? The motivations of most of the groups and individuals on that list are well known and clear cut. SLA - black revolution. Joseph Stack - tax protest. McVeigh - retaliation for Waco and Ruby Ridge. Kaczynskii - anti-left, anti-tech. Incoherence is a spook thumbprint? Right.

[vanlose kid]

This is complete bullshit, vk. You know exactly what point I'm making, so kindly stop putting daft words in my mouth.

And kindly stop insisting at every opportunity that Norwegians are some kind of innocent-but-retarded cross between Hobbits & tapeworms and presenting this as an answer to literally every question. It's getting old.

look, Mac, i'm looking at the same info you are. i'd reference PeachPam's timeline as barracuda has done if i thought it would help. what you say is "bullshit" and putting words in your mouth i don't think is so. the police were citing the estimated number of victims, not "bodies that went missing". not to make a fine point of it but no bodies as far as i know have gone missing.

i haven't at any point suggested that "Norwegians are some kind of innocent-but-retarded cross between Hobbits & tapeworms". i'm going by an analogy to e.g. someone who witnesses a traffic accident and has no idea what to do, knows nothing about first-aid, cpr, anything. part of acting is knowing how to act. the police weren't just standing around. they were trying to figure out what to do and once they did, going by the timeline, they got there as fast as they could, and once they got there it took them three minutes to actually get the guy alive without shooting any bystanders. i'm impressed. so, what am i saying? nothing other than that, from the same set of facts i've come to a different conclusion. we disagree.

[i'm also fairly sure that quite a few cops are going to be killing themselves with self-hatred for what happened. piling on them isn't something i want to take part in. and i'm not saying you're doing it but knowing how the press works i'm sure the Norwegian press will hang some cops out to dry.]

in the aftermath of this though, i'm fairly sure that some cops will get axed because they made the "wrong" decisions and that gung-ho neocon shoot-first ask questions later types will be put in their place. personally, i don't see that as a good thing. but that's what i can see happening. maybe that's the conspiracy? things is though, for me personally, so far, i don't see one other than the one carried out by Brievik. and i'm not sure i'd call that a conspiracy.

how about a truce, you and me?

*

[Harvey]

When I first went to Breiviks facebook page shortly after 12:10 am on Saturday morning, there were no friends listed on the account which was opened just four days before on the 17th, Jully 2011. The page that didn't even have a Google cache when I first went to it.

And we are told: Sent 12-minute YouTube video to 7,000 Facebook friends

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

?

There were no friends. Not one.

Oh and check out the inconsistancies in this image, see if you see what I see. (Oh and note the red Lacoste sweater, a red version of the blue/black Lacoste sweater in the old head and shoulder studio shots.)

[StarmanSkye]

Lupercal wrote:

"Bingo. It doesn't need to make sense; in fact, it's not supposed to. Who remembes wtf the Symbionese Liberation Army was all about? The story changes every time I look it up, but everybody remembers Patty Hearst. Ditto the guy who flew into the Texas fed building, ditto McVeigh , Kaczynskii, and Cho, Harris and Klebold for that matter. Add rambling nutjob Zacarias Moussaoui, add the shoe bomber, hell add the 19 hijackers. It never makes a lot of sense but the incoherence is part of the show, also a spook thumbprint at least in my view."


THANX!

That gives me a WAAAY better handle on how to think on this in a deep-politics POV. My own instincts suggest a deep-spook op of come sort as I'm VERY burnt-out skeptical about political 'coincidence'. My inuition tells me this was extremely, meticulously thought-out, planned & executed. I can't shake it. Your insight into how the particulars aren't significant, its the overall impression of instability, insecurity, random-terror that is of key importance, definitely resonates w/ me. It's like the message is, NO ONE in the ordinary public is 'safe', the entire institution of European democracy is under attack by dark, terrible forces that you can't prepare for, guard against or prevent. The intersection is a Clash of Civilizations, West vs East.

[Harvey]

One more thing that has been disturbing me about all this.

Since ABB's image first appeared I've wondered how damn familiar he looks.

I swear I have seen that guy before. Either in real life or in a photo somewhere.

I made the same connection on Friday night when I saw the first images of Breivik but didn't expect it would lead any where, unless... Ah who knows.

Anyway, meet the new bogey man, twice as threatening as the old recently retired bogeyman.