Huge explosion in Oslo

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Pierre d'Achoppement » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:50 pm

Son should have taken his own life, says father

FAMILY BACKGROUND: IN AN interview with the Swedish tabloid Expressen , Anders Breivik’s father, Jens, said yesterday that he wished his son had taken his own life. “I don’t feel like his father,” Mr Breivik said. “How could he just stand there and kill so many innocent people and just seem to think that what he did was OK? He should have taken his own life, too.”

Jens Breivik was an economist at the Norwegian embassy in London and had already been married and had three children when he met Anders’s mother, Wenche Behring, a nurse living in the city with her daughter Elisabeth from a previous relationship.

Within a year of the boy’s birth, in February 1979, the couple had split. Jens Breivik remained in London and Ms Behring moved back to Oslo with Anders and his elder half-sister. There she married a Norwegian army major and settled in Oslo. His father married a fellow embassy worker, Tove Overmo, and moved to Paris.

(...)


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/wor ... 83813.html
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby barracuda » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:52 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
barracuda wrote:Personally I don't think you're appreciating the logistical difficulties encountered by the police in the rural setting of the island surroundings. Looking at the timeline provided by Peachtree Pam, the shootings began at about 1700 hours, and even the local Buskerud police didn't arrive at the scene til 1752 after getting the first calls from the island at 1726. Realistically, from what we think we know, by the time that first call reached local police, some thirty people were already dead.

WTF is realistic about that? What do you think the kids who were hiding or not right on the scene were doing with their cell phones during that 26 minutes?


You want to completely ignore the timeline of events. Breivik came on the island at about 1700. He was taken by the organiser to see the hired officer, where he killed them both. Then he found a group of campers, beckoned them to come close, and killed most of that group. by the time anyone even would think to call the police, probably fifteen minutes had now passed. And you're assuming that a child running for their life from a steel-eyed child killer has plenty of time and opportunities to stop and make a phone call as a first priority.

barracuda wrote:Let's say the best case scenario had occurred, and the local police had been able to reach the island just minutes after arriving rather than a full twenty minutes later when the SWAT team did. We're still looking at a full hour of killing time since the first shot was fired. Is there any outcome here which would have seemed like an acceptable toll in terms of police response? Probably not.

So because we would all have thought x kids getting killed was not acceptable, it's no big deal that x+y kids were killed?


To follow your line of reasoning, one must assume that a large group of local and Oslo police were just fine aiding and abetting the shooting deaths of children begging for their lives at the mercy of an insane murderer. Not buying that one.

The response-time issue is a cul-de-sac that takes you nowhere closer to understanding the events of the day, imo.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:53 pm

barracuda wrote:
lupercal wrote:^ Is there a better explanation?

p.s. the calc is 0.303030303 miles / 22 min x 60 min per hr


Yeah, I figure after reading the last few pages that there was no reason not to assume that tthe police officers themselves weren't shooting children indiscriminately. Can you prove they weren't?

I just don't get what is motivating anyone to act as an apologist for the cops.

According to the current official timeline, it took 97 minutes for the killer to go from placing a bomb in Oslo to killing kids on the island and he took the ferry!

Then it took 78 minutes from that point for the first cop to arrive on the scene, despite almost certainly getting flooded with 911 call from the first minute of the attack.

What happened? Did all the ferrymen go on strike in the interim?
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:57 pm

barracuda wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:
barracuda wrote:Personally I don't think you're appreciating the logistical difficulties encountered by the police in the rural setting of the island surroundings. Looking at the timeline provided by Peachtree Pam, the shootings began at about 1700 hours, and even the local Buskerud police didn't arrive at the scene til 1752 after getting the first calls from the island at 1726. Realistically, from what we think we know, by the time that first call reached local police, some thirty people were already dead.

WTF is realistic about that? What do you think the kids who were hiding or not right on the scene were doing with their cell phones during that 26 minutes?


You weant to completely ignore the timeline of events. Breivik came on the island at about 1700. He was taken by the organiser to see the hired officer, where he killed them both. Then he found a group of campers, beckoned them to come close, and killed most of that group. by the time anyone even would think to call the police, probably fifteen minutes had noww passed. And you're assuming that a child running for their life from a steel-eyed child killer has plenty of time and opportunities to stop and make a phone call as a first priority.

There were hundreds of kids there who heard shots and screams, almost all carrying working cellphones. Do you actually believe what you are typing? What would you personally do first in such a situation?
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:58 pm

barracuda wrote:To follow your line of reasoning, one must assume that a large group of local and Oslo police were just fine aiding and abetting the shooting deaths of children begging for their lives at the mercy of an insane murderer. Not buying that one..

LOL. They listened to their superiors as all good cops should.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby barracuda » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:01 pm

stickdog99 wrote:There were hundreds of kids there who heard shots and screams, almost all carrying working cellphones. Do you actually believe what you are typing? What would you personally do first in such a situation?


Survivors who heard the shots reported that they had thought a shooting contest was being held as part of the activities, and thought nothing of it til they saw the gunman.

I'd have run my ass off and tried to hide as quietly as possible before that fucker blew my head off, that's what I'd have done.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby kenoma » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:02 pm

stickdog99 wrote:According to the current official timeline, it took 97 minutes for the killer to go from placing a bomb in Oslo to killing kids on the island and he took the ferry!


Nobody's suggesting he lit a fuse under the car.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby barracuda » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:06 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
barracuda wrote:Yeah, I figure after reading the last few pages that there was no reason not to assume that tthe police officers themselves weren't shooting children indiscriminately. Can you prove they weren't?


There's plenty of reason not to presume that, not least the fact that not one of the hundreds of survivors has reported any such thing.


I see you're now believing something you read on the internet. It's a start, I guess. Can you find an account by a survivor in which he notes that he called the police before 1726 hours? Because I can't.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby justdrew » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:13 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
barracuda wrote:
lupercal wrote:^ Is there a better explanation?

p.s. the calc is 0.303030303 miles / 22 min x 60 min per hr


Yeah, I figure after reading the last few pages that there was no reason not to assume that tthe police officers themselves weren't shooting children indiscriminately. Can you prove they weren't?

I just don't get what is motivating anyone to act as an apologist for the cops.

According to the current official timeline, it took 97 minutes for the killer to go from placing a bomb in Oslo to killing kids on the island and he took the ferry!

Then it took 78 minutes from that point for the first cop to arrive on the scene, despite almost certainly getting flooded with 911 call from the first minute of the attack.

What happened? Did all the ferrymen go on strike in the interim?


I don't think there's anything there. they did the best possible it seems. I seriously doubt they were in on it in any way. The Ferry that brought him and his car to the island was likely the only Ferry, it was then stranded on the island. Other boats wound up in use by locals trying to do their own search of the water for swimmers. The main mistake would seem to be this:
the Contingency Force drove (and fast) rather than wait for a helicopter to come from their main base south of Oslo. That's good, but... They SHOULD have had the helicopter meet them at the island, but it sounds like it didn't take off at all. They didn't anticipate trouble getting a ride to the island.

but it would have been nice if a few of the local cops could have gotten over there and tried to do something. I see in one of the timelines... and take a look at them... local cops did make it to the island ahead of the "Delta" types. They just hadn't achieved anything yet.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby barracuda » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:16 pm

Remember, even by the time the new helicopters had beaten the police to the island, Breivik was standing on shore, already surrounded by dead bodies.

justdrew wrote:They just hadn't achieved anything yet.


Triage? Or finishing off the wounded?
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby lupercal » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:17 pm

barracuda wrote:I figure after reading the last few pages that there was no reason not to assume that tthe police officers themselves weren't shooting children indiscriminately. Can you prove they weren't?

The sad fact is that somebody was busy killing them, and I don't think it was Mona Lisa, whose unchanging expression was either surgically constructed -- not unlikely, given the contrast with his earlier pics -- or the result of even more psychotropics than Sirhan was marinated in. Incidentally he seems to have borrowed Sirhan's awful attorney.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Plutonia » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:18 pm

What about a Girardian reading?:

In 1947, a French philosopher, Maurice Merleau-Ponty wrote “violence can found culture, terror can preserve stability, and the unanimity created by sacrifice of a scapegoat can become so complete that it includes even its victim.”3 At that time his claims were considered controversial and Merleau-Ponty, uneasy about his own analysis and its ramifications, turned away from further investigation. In 1972, however, Rene Girard, a French literary critic, took up the question of the violent root of culture through literature, anthropology, psychology, and biblical criticism. In a succession of books (see the bibliography) and through numerous articles and interviews, Girard “has relentlessly
pursued what he even calls his idee fixe: the way in which scapegoats found, preserve, and unify culture.”4

pdf: http://www.kyrie.com/outer/girard/Girar ... Part_I.pdf


Here's as concise a summary as can be found (I went through and high-lighted the most pertinent bits but that proved to be most of it, so I removed the [b ]'s from all but the one passage):

An Introduction to the Work of René Girard
By Peter Stork
January 13, 2011
....

In Girard’s proposal, the “scene of [human] origin” lies in the horror of an outbreak of unstoppable violence within the archaic community. It is the internal crisis, the spilling over of violent reciprocity into the “interior” of their social space that fills the group with dread and now brings about the perception of an encounter with the “sacred”. This notion has important implications for Girard’s interpretation of the origin of sacrifice and the nature of religion.

First, sacrificial ritual originates with a human victim, not with animal sacrifices. For Girard, animal sacrifices belong to later substitutionary development. Second, Girard perceives violence as a reciprocal phenomenon, which, like vengeance, lends violence its self-perpetuating and interminable character. Therefore, the function of sacrifice and victimary substitution is the transmutation of reciprocal violence into a culturally “safe” ritual by venting it on a victim from whose death no one needs to fear reprisals. As long as this act is perceived by all as “sacred violence”, it breaks the destructive momentum of vengeance and transposes it into a protective one.

In other words, in primitive society sacrifice holds the impulse for revenge in check in the guise of religious violence. Third, this understanding throws light on the choice of sacrificial victims. To be “sacrificiable”, victims had not only to be sufficiently similar to allow substitution, but also sufficiently different and marginal to make them legitimate targets of collective violence that would draw the focus away from the community proper. This explains why slaves, prisoners of war, the deformed and children qualified. As they were not fully integrated into the community, their slaughter would not pose a reciprocal threat of revenge or blood feud.
[/b]
Anthropologists have often related sacrifice to the notion of guilt. Girard denies this link. For him, sacrifice is ritualized vengeance, not an act of expiation. In primitive society, the orientation is not towards a wrongdoer but towards a victim designated to absorb the communal violence. Girard argues that the question of guilt only arises in judicially structured societies with their orientation towards the concepts of transgression and a guilty party.

Girard draws attention to the similarity between the sacrificial system of earlier civilizations and the judicial system of more advanced societies. He argues that they are functionally identical in that both fulfill the same purpose: to save society from its own violence. However, both will “work” only as long as they are perceived as having exclusive access to the means of vengeance. In the case of the sacrificial system this is established by the centrality of the “sacred”, and in the case of the judicial system by the “independent authority” of the law.

While each system declares its own violence “holy” and legitimate over and against any other source of violence, each equally obscures the fact that human beings need protection from their own reciprocal violence. Should this veil be lifted, both systems lose their efficacy. In another way, demystification robs both systems of their power to break the cycle of reciprocal violence. The ensuing weakening of the victimage mechanism leaves society open to loss of identity and to outbreaks of undifferentiated violence or anarchy. Under such conditions, society enters what Girard calls the “sacrificial crisis”.

When the notion of legitimate violence is lost, society is exposed to the irrepressible powers of reciprocal violence and its contagious escalation. Then, writes Girard, “man’s desires are focused on one thing only: violence”. The key to an understanding of this startling conclusion lies in Girard’s notion of desire and its relation to violence. To understand Girard’s notion of desire, it is important to grasp that in his scheme desire is “mimetic”. With this qualifier Girard means, on the one hand, that desire is distinct from appetite or biological needs such as hunger or thirst. On the other hand, it is to say that human beings imitate each other. They copy not only gestures, language and other cultural expressions but also each other’s desires. Conflict results when this process leads to convergence of desires on the same object.

If desire is mimetic, the conflictual nature of human interactions may be explained. It is a well-known tendency in ethology to extrapolate animal behavior into the human sphere. The idea that human aggression and violence are “instinctive” owes its existence to this tendency. However, violence in animals rarely leads to the death of an opponent or rival. A built-in mechanism terminates the combat before it reaches the lethal stage. Such a constraint is lacking in humans. Consequently, when faced with a rival, humans are defenseless against their own impulses which they do not know how to control. However, before we can understand Girard’s notion of “desire”, we need to trace his thoughts about the pivotal role he ascribes to the “rival” in relation to desire and its violent manifestations.

In Girard’s thought, desire does not arise in a subject as an autonomous and spontaneous attraction to an object, neither is a rival defined as the result of two autonomous desires spontaneously and concurrently converging upon the same object. Rather, “the subject desires the object because the rival desires it.” In other words, the desirability of an object for the subject lies not in the object itself, but in its desirability in the eyes of another. Girard explains: In desiring an object the rival alerts the subject to the desirability of the object. The rival, then, serves as a model for the subject, not only in regard to such secondary matters as style and opinions but also, and more essentially, in regard to desires.

We will not understand the intensity and significance of this “imitation of desire” until we see its essential motif. Desire not only seeks to possess the object to which the model points, but also seeks to be “possessed” by it, for the acquisitiveness of desire is not primarily directed at the object itself but at what it signifies, namely the model proper. In other words, this acquisitiveness aims at the very being of the one who finds the object so desirable.

According to Girard, it is the imitator’s perceived lack of being or his sense of ontological emptiness that drives the intensity of acquisitiveness. An existential void which the successful acquisition promises to remedy appears at the core of human desire. This acquisitiveness is therefore, as Fleming explains, “merely a path, the perceived privileged route, to the attainment of the ontological self-sufficiency detected in the rival”.

This dynamic renders desire essentially conflictual, and the ensuing conflict is irreconcilable, except at the expense of the model or a substitutionary victim. What is more, the outworking of this conflict locks both model and imitator into what Girard has called the double-bind in which they constantly signal contradictory messages to one another – “imitate me, but don’t desire my object”. This phenomenon, Girard contends, forms the basis of all human relationships and is, in the final analysis, the instigator of the sacrificial crisis where desire and violence are no longer distinguished. At the point of a mimetic crisis, violence begets more violence as each participant resorts to more violence to overcome the violence of his opponent. Under the dynamics of the double-bind, the distinction between model and imitator vanishes so that the mimetic crisis becomes a crisis of non-differentiation that threatens the cohesion of the community (which is built on distinctiveness) unless at the height of undifferentiated violence a surrogate victim is arbitrarily slain.

The unanimity of the collective murder causes the violence to subside and the vicious cycle of mimetic violence to be broken. This death and the ensuing peace (absence of violence) transmute the energies of reciprocal violence into sanctioned ritualistic forms so that their later performances occur as re-enactments of the scene of origin through which the cultural order is preserved. Religion is thus not an attempt to contact “the gods” but ritualized vengeance that prevents its uncontrollable outbreak.

The five chief elements of Girard’s “mimetic anthropology” may be summarized as follows:

1. Mimesis In Girard, mimesis is not the copying of actions but the imitation of desire, or the replication of another’s attraction towards an object. In this definition, mimesis is acquisitive and desire is “suffered desire” that arises spontaneously when the object is valued by a mediator. Girard distinguishes between external and internal mediation. The greater the distance between the subject and the mediator, the freer is the relationship between them from the possibility of rivalry. In that case, Girard speaks of external mediation. If the distance diminishes, not only does the possibility of rivalry increase but its intensity also rises proportionately. Then Girard speaks of internal mediation, in which case the model or mediator has also become the obstacle. He or she now obstructs the desired acquisition while constantly signaling the desirability of the object. This model/obstacle dynamic shifts the value from the object itself to the obstruction which also explains why prohibition heightens the object’s desirability.
2. Metaphysical Desire and Transcendence When mimesis progresses towards rivalry, the object becomes less and less important as desire focuses on the mediator become obstacle. At the height of the conflict the object is forgotten altogether. At this point, desire has become metaphysical and now seeks to possess not the object but the being of the other, in fact to become the other. The conflict is over recognition and prestige. Since human desire is mediated desire, i.e. it does not arise from within but from an external source, Girard interprets its triangular nature to mean that human beings are structured towards transcendence. Human desire is to be mediated by a truly transcendent spiritual source. Therefore, mimetic rivalry is the pathological variant of desire awakened by a false transcendence, that is, by the proximity of the desire of another human being.
3. The Mimetic Crisis A further progression of mimetic conflict leads to the formation of doubles. The subject and the mediator of desire become more and more like each other. In this instance, the rivals copy each other’s desire and in the process erase their differences. Girard calls this point in the progression the “mimetic crisis”. Since mimetic desire is highly infectious, it affects groups and society to the point where it can spin out of control and threaten the existence of community. However, the operation of mimesis ensures that at the extreme the total reciprocal violence is vented unanimously on a surrogate victim which is killed. The murder of the victim brings peace. But if the cause for their unanimity is misattributed to the victim rather than to the function of mimesis aroused by the victim mechanism, the peace is based on a delusion. Because the resolution of the crisis demands the blood of a victim, the mimetic crisis is also called “sacrificial crisis”.
4. The Victim and the Sacred According to Girard, this misattribution occurs spontaneously at the height of the crisis when the group transfers its violence to the victim. Violence is not repressed, but through the process of transference it becomes “detached”. This turns the victim into a god who miraculously transforms the destructive violence of the conflict into legitimate violence for the sake of peace in the community. The result is a double delusion. The victim is seen as “supremely active and powerful”,9 while its corpse has become the transcendent signifier of the “sacred” whose violence, like a double- edged sword, cuts both ways: it ensures the order of society but also has the power to destroy it. Under this delusion, the “sacred” masquerades as the cause as well as the cure of mimetic violence and as such represents “the transcendental pole of primitive religion”.
5. The Scapegoat The term relates to the unconscious transference of violence onto another along with its associated guilt. In myths, the scapegoat is represented by “texts of persecution”, similarly in stories which tell the tale from the perspective of the persecutors. It is both a term in common language as well as a ritual act that communicates the dynamic and result of transference. By pointing indirectly to the need for transference, however, it partly discloses the underlying problem of the human subconscious which, since the originary scene is structured on the basis of a lynching, seeks to rid itself of violence and guilt by laying it on others. In short, Girard rejects the idealistic notion that it is natural for human beings to live in peace with each other.

...

http://payingattentiontothesky.com/2011 ... ter-stork/


Mind; whether there was a conspiratorial agenda behind this event and whether or not the perpetrator(s) were aware of Girardian theory and applied it (or attempted to) consciously, the primary characteristic of sacrificial violence is that it is part of an unconscious psycho-social complex so that even the plotter(s) (and perhaps responders) would not necessarily be aware of the deeper implications of their actions/choices.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Harvey » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:21 pm

Pierre d'Achoppement wrote:
Harvey wrote:Alright, Emmanuel Minos supposedly wrote down this prophecy in 1968:

http://www.offgridworship.com/2010/10/1 ... egian.html

And it says 08-1968 and KT on the England badge and Emmanuel Minos is a member of Kensington Temple:

http://www.revivaltimes.org/index.php?aid=288

http://www.kt.org/

This is definitely the reference they are trying to make, the reference isn't Knights templar, it's Kensington Temple. I think they are trying to create multiple levels of fear here.


Harvey great find, the guy Emmanuel Minos is a norwegian living in England on top of the other clues. Fucking incredible. I''m scared at how crazy it is.


Continuing the theme that someone is playing games with this (can't get my head around the sickness of that) there may be a series of embedded jokes. The badge leads to this text from the steps in my earlier post:



Mo i Rana plus 08 68 (the date on the badge) leads us to this Norwegian postcode:

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... rmd%3Divns

Which is the address on Norways fictional tax example form, Ola Nordman or Joe Bloggs:

http://www.skatteetaten.no/Upload/rettl ... ngelsk.pdf

Ola has borrowed NOK 100,000 from his mother, Petra Nordmann, address 1000 Stomperudbygda, date of birth 22 February 1933. He has paid her NOK 5,000 in interest for this. He enters the amounts here, with a minus sign in front, and marks the item 3.3.1/4.8.1.


But handwritten on the form the birth date is 22 March 1933

22 March 1933 At the begining of the Third reich, the day Dachau opened.

22 february 1933

Petra's tax identification number includes this set of numbers: 03 11 63 003 31

Which led me to this bizzare site, scale it down, and there's a link, off page to:

http://k2-solutions.eu/forum/user/9702-private-pilot/

Birthday: Nov 2nd

Gender: Male

Location: Mounds, ok

Occupation: Civil/Structural Designer

Hobbies: Fly RC Airplanes


If one of you guys can find 22 embedded in that string as well we have our final sick joke.

I know I've probably gone of my head here, but all of this is from following one thread, on the badge in Breiviks video, KT and 08 68. Spooks talking to each other?

Weird huh?
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:24 pm

lupercal wrote:
The first police patrols began crossing Lake Tyrifjorden at 6.03pm, arriving on the island at 6.25pm.


Let's see, 22 min. to travel 1,600 feet = 0.303030303 miles / 22 min / 60 min per hour = 0.82644628 miles per hour.

0.83 mph. I guess in the fog of war they forgot to bring the inflatable raft paddle?


Maybe they were swimming.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby justdrew » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:30 pm

barracuda wrote:Remember, even by the time the new helicopters had beaten the police to the island, Breivik was standing on shore, already surrounded by dead bodies.

justdrew wrote:They just hadn't achieved anything yet.


Triage? Or finishing off the wounded?


I take it that's sarcasm, I can't blame you for being a little pissed with the direction some speculations have gone in. but hey, this is as bad as it's ever gotten, let's forgive and forget a few hasty/nasty comments.

it does seem like everyone shot has died... which is unusual, but that's a big gun he had.

so I'll broach the subject - rather than blaming the cops (who only EVER could have shown up AFTER many many were already dead, no matter how fast they moved)... What about considering the possibility, as I pointed out so many pages ago... that as of now (and really, as of always), no one should gather anyone, much less children, without the ability to defend them. Now anyone can be a target of political violence. Am I an A, B or C? I've never been a fan of "guns" but if there'd been someone with a rifle... At least he could have been pinned behind cover 'til the police force arrived.
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