"Helicopterless" Norway & the Utøya massacre

[MacCruiskeen]

I posted this already on page 58 of the marathon "Oslo" thread, but it seems well worth a new thread of its own.

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A whole series of different wacky explanations have now been given by the Norwegian police as to why none of their officers (not even the "elite" "anti-Terror" "Delta Force") could possibly have used a helicopter to get there quickly:

1. It would have been too dangerous for the helicopter crews -- although they are tough, highly-skilled, and used to working in dangerous situations -- because the pedestrian killer had pistols and might possibly have shot at them (as opposed to just carrying on slaughtering children).

2. Helicopters are not suitable vehicles in such a case (i.e., an ongoing massacre -- clearly demanding a very rapid response -- by one or at most two gunmen on a small island).

3. We only have one helicopter, and it was too far away at the time.

4. Plus, unfortunately, all the crew members were on holiday.

5. Besides, everyone was all tied up in Oslo, and it was possible that further attacks might happen there or elsewhere in Norway, and we would of course have had to respond quickly to those HYPOTHETICAL new attacks. (So that's why we couldn't possibly respond quickly to another ACTUAL attack elsewhere in Norway, namely the ongoing massacre of children on an island very close to Oslo, which we demonstrably already knew was happening. Because, you see, something bad MIGHT have happened elsewhere while we were responding to the massacre on the island. So it was best just to ignore the massacre on the island, as we did.)

- Am I being sarcastic? Yes. So sue me. But I am not exaggerating. These were indeed the reasons given, one after another. They are literally incredible.

Now: I posted this before about 30 pages back and it was almost completely ignored, so here it is again, with emphases added:

Norwegian Air Ambulance

The Norwegian Air Ambulance is the air ambulance service in Norway organised through the government owned limited company Luftambulansetjenesten (Air Ambulance Service). The service provides helicopter emergency medical service (HEMS) and fixed wing air ambulance operations.

Dedicated planes are provided at six airports, and helicopters at 11 hospitals. In addition the service depends on the state Search and rescue helicopters for a full national coverage. The fixed-wing aircraft and HEMS helicopters are operated by the private companies Lufttransport and Norsk Luftambulanse on contract for the Air Ambulance Service. The rescue helicopters are operated by the Royal Norwegian Air Force 330 squadron

(...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Air_Ambulance

By the time the massacre started, PM Stoltenberg had been in a secure bunker for well over an hour, since immediately after the Oslo bombing, presumably talking to Army and Air Force chiefs, as well as police chiefs and medical and emergency-response leaders. (NB: For all anyone knew at that time (or so we're told) the Oslo bombing "bore all the hallmarks of Al Qaeda" - it was "Norway's 9/11", and 9/11 of course consisted of separate attacks.) All of these national defence systems -- including and especially the elite anti-Terror "Delta Force" leaders -- must already have been on the very highest alert, precisely because the government and capital city had already been massively attacked and new attacks were feared at any moment. "How can we best use our available airpower, including helicopters?" will undoubtedly have been a major consideration. "For a start, make sure they're fueled and ready to go, and that the crews are on high alert", will undoubtedly have been the obvious answer.

- Doesn't all this speak for itself?

If not (and some will inevitably insist not), then here's a link to one of many private helicopter companies in Norway:

HeliWing Helicopterservice - Here you find us.

HeliWing Helicoptertservice is located south of Oslo near the theme park Tusenfryd.

Ås - Between the agricultural university at Aas and the Oslofjord town of Drobak. HeliWing also dispose of landing areas near Oslo city centre at the museum area of Bygdøy.

...

Our helicopters

Example:

AS350-BA 1-engine


Seats Pilot + 5
Speed 215 km/t
External load 750 kg
Luggage capasity Good
Endurance 3 hours
Price per. hr. ex.vat 12.000,- [Expensive, yes.]



Helicopter pilots in HeliWing - Call us directly

(Includes photos of four tough-looking blokes, each of whom lists his personal phone number, in addition to the company phone number in Central Oslo.)

http://www.heliwing.no/

No doubt these skilled pilots and competent company managers, just like those Finnish lesbian holidaymakers, would have been more than happy to respond quickly to an ongoing massacre of Norwegian children, especially if asked nicely by the PM and the Air Force chiefs, or even if ordered to. Requisitioning has been heard of in cases of extreme national emergency.

This is, of course, only one helicopter company out of many in Norway.

Remember, too, that a TV helicopter crew was FILMING the massacre as it went on.

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I'll be accused of long-windedness, or maybe even obsessiveness, or (even more heinous) sarcasm, so I'll shut up now. But although the point is blatantly obvious, I'm forced to spell it out:

Norway is anything but short of helicopters and helicopter pilots, both military and civilian. The official "explanations" for the grotesquely delayed response are demonstrably untrue.

[MacCruiskeen]

http://www.helis.com/database/country/NO/

NB: At that website, every single institution or company on the following list is individually hotlinked.


Helicopter Database: Norway

Organisations of this country:

Military Forces
Kongelig Norske Marine
Luftforsvaret

Security Forces
Kystvakt

Government
Politi
statens luftambulanse

Industry
Helikopter Services, AS

Civilian
airlift as
Blueway
Braathens
Bristow Norway AS
chc helikopterservice
CHC Norway AS
fjellfly as
Heli-Team AS
helikopterdrift as
helinord
helitrans as
Lufttransport AS
MidtNorsk Helikopterservice
norcopter
norsk flytjeneste as
norsk helikopter
Norsk Luftambulanse
pegasus helicopter


Shipyards:

Havyard Leirvik
Navy Main Yard
Ulstein Verft (Ulstein-Hatlo)

[norton ash]

Like a North Sea oil state doesn't have an abundance of frigging choppers.

[MacCruiskeen]

Airport Analysis | 20th October 2010


CAPTION: As the gateway to Norwegian North Sea oil and gas rigs, helicopter traffic makes up a considerable part of Bergen Airport’s movements and the airport’s old terminal now functions as a dedicated helicopter facility.

Bergen Airport, located on Norway’s south-west coast, is the country’s second busiest (after Oslo), handling 4.5 million terminal passengers in 2009. The city is recognised as the gateway to the fjords, and the airport also hosts many helicopter flights serving the North Sea oil and gas rigs. Aberdeen in Scotland, another city strongly associated with North Sea activities, is actually closer to Bergen than it is to London.

http://tinyurl.com/3fv9dr3

[sunny]

Who sent the crew members on vacation? Who gave the orders not to fly helicopters to the island? Who is ultimately responsible for deploying the choppers? These are the questions. We must go UP the chain of command.

[MacCruiskeen]

Big Statoil find revives Norway's oil future

OSLO— Reuters

Published Friday, Apr. 01, 2011 5:38PM EDT
Last updated Monday, Apr. 04, 2011 1:57PM EDT



CAPTION: A CHC helicopter is about to touch down on a Statoil platform in the Norwegian North Sea.

...

http://tinyurl.com/3bazbd3

[Burnt Hill]

Small bother, but-

Finnish lesbian holidaymakers

I am finding the repeated referral to the sexual orientation of these heroes a bit tiresome.
Its not a great identifier here, as in-
if a couple of lesbians were able to help out,
then the officers have really screwed up.

[barracuda]

By the time the massacre started, PM Stoltenberg had been in a secure bunker for well over an hour, since immediately after the Oslo bombing, presumably talking to Army and Air Force chiefs, as well as police chiefs and medical and emergency-response leaders. All of these national defence systems must already have been on high alert, precisely because the government and capital city had already been attacked and new attacks were feared at any moment. "How can we best use our available airpower, including helicopters?" will undoubtedly have been a major consideration. "For a start, make sure they're fueled and ready, and that the crews are on high alert" will undoubtedly have been the obvious answer.

- Doesn't all this speak for itself?

Not really. In fact, it seems like helicopter readiness is something that only makes sense in retrospect. Nevertheless, even at readyness, as I mentioned in the other thread, the closet 330 squadron base with a helicopter is in Rygge. An air ambulance wouldn't and shouldn't even be considered for a tactical police or military operation, unless you have Bruce Willis on your police force.

And there is simply no possibilty the Norwegian government was going to requisition private or corporate helicopters for such an incident. First of all - liability would simply prevent it, second - prep time makes it a logistical impossibility, third - corporations don't sacrifice their men and equipment for civilians, fourth - the government/military mindset is simply not one which is concerned with the welfare of the citizens, fifth - if they felt they couldn't effectively use police-dedicated helicopters, why would a civilian chopper be a better idea?

[MacCruiskeen]

OK, Burnt Hill. Sorry for any offence caused. The main reason I keep saying it is twofold 1) it's a simple identifier (they're quite famous now) and 2) it pleases me to point out that two middle-aged ladies who like ladies were more physically courageous and more competent than the kind of military macho-men who sneer at gays and lesbians.

But I'll stop using it.

[Burnt Hill]

it pleases me to point out that two middle-aged ladies who like ladies were more physically courageous and more competent than the kind of military macho-men who sneer at gays and lesbians.

I can get on with that!
Lots of other heroes there whos backgrounds remain unknown.
Thanks Mac.

[hanshan]

...

By the time the massacre started, PM Stoltenberg had been in a secure bunker for well over an hour, since immediately after the Oslo bombing, presumably talking to Army and Air Force chiefs, as well as police chiefs and medical and emergency-response leaders. All of these national defence systems must already have been on high alert, precisely because the government and capital city had already been attacked and new attacks were feared at any moment. "How can we best use our available airpower, including helicopters?" will undoubtedly have been a major consideration. "For a start, make sure they're fueled and ready, and that the crews are on high alert" will undoubtedly have been the obvious answer.

- Doesn't all this speak for itself?

Not really. In fact, it seems like helicopter readiness is something that only makes sense in retrospect. Nevertheless, even at readyness, as I mentioned in the other thread, the closet 330 squadron base with a helicopter is in Rygge. An air ambulance wouldn't and shouldn't even be considered for a tactical police or military operation, unless you have Bruce Willis on your police force.

And there is simply no possibilty the Norweigen government was going to requisition private or corporate helicopters for such an incident. First of all - liability would simply prevent it, second - prep time makes it a logistical impossibility, third - corporations don't sacrifice their men and equipment for civilians, fourth - the government/military mindset is simply not one which is concerned with the welfare of the citizens, fifth - if they felt they couldn't effectively use police-dedicated helicopters, why would a
civilian chopper be a better idea?

Age of the Spectacle morphs to death psyops from wherever. Norway?
missed the story due to offgrid activities



...

[vanlose kid]

Who sent the crew members on vacation? Who gave the orders not to fly helicopters to the island? Who is ultimately responsible for deploying the choppers? These are the questions. We must go UP the chain of command.

in Norway (where social democrats have been the ruling party for most of the post-war period) labor laws are strictly enforced, and part of those laws grant all workers a right to 25 days vacation a year minimum. that is all. most Norwegians tend to plan theirs to coincide with school/industrial vacations, that is the summer months. so the crew members probably sat down sometime in the spring and worked out who gets to go when. employers have the right to demand that the main number of planned vacation days fall between June 1, and September 30. that's usually how things are done.

i have Norwegian friends and have traveled there when i was younger, mostly hitchhiking and they're the some of most mild mannered, laid back people i've met. even their business culture reflects this. it's a big country with very few people. the population of Oslo is half a million. consensus is a big deal there. i think comparing and evaluating their institutions and culture on imperial US or British templates tends to bring confusion. the police patrol unarmed. watching NRK live feeds after the attacks you'd see people walking up to officers on patrol in groups and applauding. there is criticism by hardliners who want things to be more action packed and hollywood-manly (which i suspect will happen) but mostly people are proud of how they handled things.

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[vanlose kid]

When a man dressed in a police uniform began slaughtering young people at a Norwegian summer camp last week, one of the first to be killed was a real police officer named Trond Berntsen, who for years had worked in security at the camp.

Whether Officer Berntsen tried to stop the gunman is still being debated. But facing a man carrying multiple guns and ample ammunition, there was little he could do. Like most other police officers here, he had no weapon.

By law, Norwegian police officers must have authorization from their chief to gain access to a firearm, but they have rarely needed to ask, until recently. Violent crime has been steadily increasing, jolting a society used to leaving doors unlocked and children to play without fear. Coupled with growing criticism over the police’s slow response time to the attacks and confusion about the death toll, which was lowered Monday to 76 from 93, there are growing questions about whether the police are equipped to deal with the challenges.

“Criminals are now carrying weapons, so some people now think that police officers should have weapons as well,” said Gry Jorunn Holmen, a spokeswoman for the Norwegian police union. Though she said it was too early to make any assessments, Ms. Holmen said the union had formed a commission to explore the issue. For the police, she said, “it’s getting tougher.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/world ... olice.html

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[MacCruiskeen]

In response to barracuda:

there is simply no possibilty the Norweigen government was going to requisition private or corporate helicopters for such an incident.

You know this? No. All you in fact know is that they didn't. That does not demonstrate that they couldn't possibly have done so.

First of all - liability would simply prevent it,

You know this? No. And the Norwegian government is not short of a bob or two.

second - prep time makes it a logistical impossibility,

You know this? No. And as I pointed out already, they had more than adequate time to "prep" in that security bunker in the hour and more after the Oslo bombing.

third - corporations don't sacrifice their men and equipment for civilians,

You know this? No. You've asked them all, during lots of national disasters? No.

In any case, many civilians are also "corporation's" "men", especially nowadays. And corporations protect their assets. Last not least, corporations live from their image, and few corporations located in Norway would be willing to engage in prominent post-disaster Norwegian lawcases where they look like callous, vicious greedy shits indifferent to the fate of 700 terrified Norwegian children.

But maybe you're an expert marketing manager who knows better, in addition to being omniscient.

fourth - the government/military mindset is simply not one which is concerned with the welfare of the citizens,

Yes, there is no distinction whatsoever between tiny social-democratic Norway and, say, the contemporary USA, or the Argentinian military dictatorship, or indeed Nazi Germany.

Military personnel and equipment have in fact often been used to actually help people in desperate situations and during national emergencies. If you want just one very recent European example, google something like "Saxony / floods / army / rescue / sandbags".

Also, even the most callous Norwegian social-democratic government might not be wholly indifferent to the mass murder of its own young generation, including close relatives of actual government members and the stepbrother of a princess. Have you asked them? (No.)

But I wholeheartedly agree with you that both the police's farcically belated response and the police's "explanations" showed no great concern for those helpless children. So why do you keep defending them and insisting that they couldn't possibly have done better? (See above.)

fifth - if they felt they couldn't effectively use police-dedicated helicopters, why would a civilian chopper be a better idea?

Because civilian choppers were available in their hundreds, including big robust personnel-carrying ones. See my first three or four posts for the evidence.

[Gnomad]

Re: summer holidays, here in Finland the whole country halfway shuts down in July. Most people have their summer holidays then and take off to the summer cottages and what not. Many services are run with less manpower than in other times. I imagine it is the same in Sweden and Norway - in the north winters are dark and summers short so summer is kind of dedicated holiday time.

I don't see summer affect the operation of the police in the capital though. Many hospitals, on the other hand, are closed partially during the few summer months. Can't say if there is any real basis for claiming the holidays affected the response in this case...Just fwiw.

Regarding use of force by police, and even more so the army, it is indeed very different than in the states. In Finland, officers cannot shoot to kill even when there is an armed perp, except to protect life - their own or that of others. Some years ago there was a situation where an arms collector was firing out of an apartment indiscriminately - police snipers did not shoot him, they only shot him in the leg when he was coming out the door, sporting a gun aimed at the officers. In legal shooting situations, there is often an investigation into whether the force was warranted. Probably the same in Norway. Here all uniformed officers do carry a sidearm, though.

There might even be some laws affecting military helping the police. Here, (afaik) it is only allowed after the government authorizes military assistance (say, border guard). Search and rescue missions would be another matter. Don't know how norwegian laws compare.

More agreeing with Mac, anyways.