Huge explosion in Oslo

[stickdog99]

i mean, really. It's one thing to say that perhaps there were some people involved in law enforcement who purposefully delayed action for some ulterior motive (for which there is still very scant evidence), but it's quite another to be questioning the people who actually were there and saved lives.

stickdog, would you say such offensive things to these peoples' faces?

Everyone is so fucking offended by everything. During the time scores of kids were getting killed, their ostensible leader absconded with the biggest boat around that could have been used to rescue scores drowning kids and drove it as fast and as far away as he possibly could without running out of lake. Doesn't that strike anyone here except me as a somewhat strange response to all of your friends being in mortal danger?

And, folks, the 20-year-old was NOT the pilot of the boat! He was just a crew member.

it does seem odd. but - they were told a story that more 'associates' of the fake cop were due soon. I can see them not wanting to be there, and not wanting them to have access to the ferry, and I suppose they might have assumed the police response would come in on a helicopter. or have some other access.

OK, but why not just bring it in to a dock couple of miles away? Why take the boat as far away from "civilization" as possible? I mean, can terrorists really be everywhere at once? Are they superhuman entities out to get you personally such that you must keep running from them at all costs until your fuel expires?

I just can't imagine that put in the same situation I could have possibly even thought of doing the same thing. If someone said there may be more "policemen" at the ferry dock. I would have said, "Smart thinking. Let's find another dock."

But if someone had said. "Let's take the boat as far away as we possibly can without running out of lake." I would have been like, "Are you fucking kidding me? Why?"

[solace]

i mean, really. It's one thing to say that perhaps there were some people involved in law enforcement who purposefully delayed action for some ulterior motive (for which there is still very scant evidence), but it's quite another to be questioning the people who actually were there and saved lives.

stickdog, would you say such offensive things to these peoples' faces?

Everyone is so fucking offended by everything. During the time scores of kids were getting killed, their ostensible leader absconded with the biggest boat around that could have been used to rescue scores drowning kids and drove it as fast and as far away as he possibly could without running out of lake. Doesn't that strike anyone here except me as a somewhat strange response to all of your friends being in mortal danger?

And, folks, the 20-year-old was NOT the pilot of the boat! He was just a crew member.

it does seem odd. but - they were told a story that more 'associates' of the fake cop were due soon. I can see them not wanting to be there, and not wanting them to have access to the ferry, and I suppose they might have assumed the police response would come in on a helicopter. or have some other access.

OK, bu why not just bring it in to a dock couple of miles away? Why take the boat as far away from "civilization" as possible? I mean, can terrorists really be everywhere at once? Are they superhuman entities out to get you personally such that you must keep running from them at all costs until your fuel expires?

I just can't imagine that put in the same situation I could have possibly even thought of doing the same thing. If someone said there may be more "policemen" at the ferry dock. I would have said, "Smart thinking. Let's find another dock."

But if someone had said. "Let's take the boat as far away as we possibly can without running out of lake." I would have been like, "Are you fucking kidding me? Why?"

Classic real life. You are you and them are them. I remember being in a wheelchair at an event and almost knocked out of it when the event was over. NO ONE gave way or offered help in their rush to leave the building. Thank God no one was shooting; just in a hurry.

[stickdog99]

I'm guessing that at least 10 more kids died because he moved the ferry off the grid

Heres another potential scenario.
The ferry crew wait for a full boat (calling people over?(the kids know the ferry is safe?)) and after awhile load up to the full 50.
Then along comes the shooter, massacres the whole lot, and thanks them for waiting up.
Seriously stickdog, you are not being very considerate.
Doubt they could of done much rescuing from the water either.
Besides being a giant target, the logistics appear quite difficult.

Exactly. The police, organization leaders and transportation operators need to leave the dirty work of saving the shot up and drowning kids to the computer geeks, German roofers and lesbian couples. How inconsiderate of me to suggest otherwise.

[lupercal]

I'm trying to watch the manifesto video again but it's so badly made it's more like a caricature: the text is for the most part so small it's unreadable and the images are all cliched rightwing images. Also no voiceover or anything. In 9 years you'd think he could have made something better! But trying to move away from the details, thinking about what could someone want with a video like that, I do think of the united states unfortunately. I think that is the one party that especially right now is very afraid of a united europe at peace with islam and cooperating with Russia. Really the only party I can think of that has anything to gain by this horror.

I'd add the UK but I think you pretty much called it. Here's a link in case anyone is looking for a copy (you need to log in to YouTube and click some kind of content agreement, but there's nothing sexual in it, that I caught anyway):

[waugs]

I'm guessing that at least 10 more kids died because he moved the ferry off the grid

Heres another potential scenario.
The ferry crew wait for a full boat (calling people over?(the kids know the ferry is safe?)) and after awhile load up to the full 50.
Then along comes the shooter, massacres the whole lot, and thanks them for waiting up.
Seriously stickdog, you are not being very considerate.
Doubt they could of done much rescuing from the water either.
Besides being a giant target, the logistics appear quite difficult.

Exactly. The police, organization leaders and transportation operators need to leave the dirty work of saving the shot up and drowning kids to the computer geeks, German roofers and lesbian couples. How inconsiderate of me to suggest otherwise.

what's interesting is that I have not read one word from the geeks, german roofers or lesbian couple complaining about the police (or leaders') response. In fact, what i have read is that there is an outpouring of support from the Norwegian people for them.

[stickdog99]

i mean, really. It's one thing to say that perhaps there were some people involved in law enforcement who purposefully delayed action for some ulterior motive (for which there is still very scant evidence), but it's quite another to be questioning the people who actually were there and saved lives.

stickdog, would you say such offensive things to these peoples' faces?

Everyone is so fucking offended by everything. During the time scores of kids were getting killed, their ostensible leader absconded with the biggest boat around that could have been used to rescue scores drowning kids and drove it as fast and as far away as he possibly could without running out of lake. Doesn't that strike anyone here except me as a somewhat strange response to all of your friends being in mortal danger?

And, folks, the 20-year-old was NOT the pilot of the boat! He was just a crew member.

You can't save the world of tomorrow if you are dead today. And new followers are always easy to come by.

And who knows how many ex-rivals for political ascendency he left behind?

[stickdog99]

I'm guessing that at least 10 more kids died because he moved the ferry off the grid

Heres another potential scenario.
The ferry crew wait for a full boat (calling people over?(the kids know the ferry is safe?)) and after awhile load up to the full 50.
Then along comes the shooter, massacres the whole lot, and thanks them for waiting up.
Seriously stickdog, you are not being very considerate.
Doubt they could of done much rescuing from the water either.
Besides being a giant target, the logistics appear quite difficult.

Exactly. The police, organization leaders and transportation operators need to leave the dirty work of saving the shot up and drowning kids to the computer geeks, German roofers and lesbian couples. How inconsiderate of me to suggest otherwise.

what's interesting is that I have not read one word from the geeks, german roofers or lesbian couple complaining about the police (or leaders') response. In fact, what i have read is that there is an outpouring of support from the Norwegian people for them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... lives.html

"Cooperation with the police and rescue crews afterwards was very good, but it all came too late. The first time I was out I was all alone."

[Burnt Hill]

I'm guessing that at least 10 more kids died because he moved the ferry off the grid

Heres another potential scenario.
The ferry crew wait for a full boat (calling people over?(the kids know the ferry is safe?)) and after awhile load up to the full 50.
Then along comes the shooter, massacres the whole lot, and thanks them for waiting up.
Seriously stickdog, you are not being very considerate.
Doubt they could of done much rescuing from the water either.
Besides being a giant target, the logistics appear quite difficult.

Exactly. The police, organization leaders and transportation operators need to leave the dirty work of saving the shot up and drowning kids to the computer geeks, German roofers and lesbian couples. How inconsiderate of me to suggest otherwise.

what's interesting is that I have not read one word from the geeks, german roofers or lesbian couple complaining about the police (or leaders') response. In fact, what i have read is that there is an outpouring of support from the Norwegian people for them.

Your contrived response to my speculation adds nothing but venom to the coversation. You are quite lodged into your perspective arent you?
What purpose is served by your insulting response? Your inability to even consider other scenarios is, by definition, inconsiderate.
You are more likely to solve a problem when you look at it from all angles.

The situation with the ferry boat has nothing to do with the timing of the police response. No one has denied that it was a painfully slow response.
Yet you continue to denigrate anyone who didnt perform to your standards or doesnt adhere to your beliefs.

We get your angle stickdog, enough already.

[waugs]

I'm guessing that at least 10 more kids died because he moved the ferry off the grid

Heres another potential scenario.
The ferry crew wait for a full boat (calling people over?(the kids know the ferry is safe?)) and after awhile load up to the full 50.
Then along comes the shooter, massacres the whole lot, and thanks them for waiting up.
Seriously stickdog, you are not being very considerate.
Doubt they could of done much rescuing from the water either.
Besides being a giant target, the logistics appear quite difficult.

Exactly. The police, organization leaders and transportation operators need to leave the dirty work of saving the shot up and drowning kids to the computer geeks, German roofers and lesbian couples. How inconsiderate of me to suggest otherwise.

what's interesting is that I have not read one word from the geeks, german roofers or lesbian couple complaining about the police (or leaders') response. In fact, what i have read is that there is an outpouring of support from the Norwegian people for them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... lives.html

"Cooperation with the police and rescue crews afterwards was very good, but it all came too late. The first time I was out I was all alone."

this is hardly a condemnation of the police and rescue crews' response. only of the length of time that it took, which was not necessarily the fault of the police or rescue crews.

You want so much to believe that there is a conspiracy here, but the evidence you've gathered is not adding up to that.

[solace]

I'm guessing that at least 10 more kids died because he moved the ferry off the grid

Heres another potential scenario.
The ferry crew wait for a full boat (calling people over?(the kids know the ferry is safe?)) and after awhile load up to the full 50.
Then along comes the shooter, massacres the whole lot, and thanks them for waiting up.
Seriously stickdog, you are not being very considerate.
Doubt they could of done much rescuing from the water either.
Besides being a giant target, the logistics appear quite difficult.

Exactly. The police, organization leaders and transportation operators need to leave the dirty work of saving the shot up and drowning kids to the computer geeks, German roofers and lesbian couples. How inconsiderate of me to suggest otherwise.

what's interesting is that I have not read one word from the geeks, german roofers or lesbian couple complaining about the police (or leaders') response. In fact, what i have read is that there is an outpouring of support from the Norwegian people for them.

There is something creepy about a place so enamored of its government. Then again I have no idea how independent/biased their media may be.

[barracuda]

There is something creepy about a place so enamored of its government.

Maybe this will help you understand. From the helicopter thread:

I'm Norwegian. Nordic and VK hit the nail on the head about the culture difference. Despite superficial similarities, our culture, society and history is extremely different from America/Britain, so please keep that in mind.

Our police force is very small, and so is our military force. Probably shockingly small, to an American or Britain. Norwegian police has one helicopter, which is for obervation only and has no capacity for troop transportation. Besides, this helicopter is often not operational, either due to lack of funding (Oslo police district, which operates the helicopter, is chronically on a budget deficit) or, as in this case, due to the crew being on vacation. This sounds strange to you probably, but is completely normal to us.

Delta does not not have any helicopters, but can use Air force helicopters (Bell 416) stationed at Rygge for missions further away from Oslo. These helicopters are not on "stand-by" (to say the least).

When Delta was asked to respond to the shooting at Utøya, they were already sitting in their armed MB Gälendewagens at "Ground Zero" of the bombing in the center of Oslo (a video confirms this). Given this, driving was a no-brainer compared to scrambling helicopters from Rygge, and this has really been a non-issue here. The question of boats has not been raised at all.

Almost all the criticism of the police response has been in foreign media. Police here has received more praise than criticism, including by Utøya survivors. There is certainly no anger at the police whatsoever, that I've detected. Spontaneous applause has occurred, as was reported. People believe (as do I) that they did what they could with the resources they have.

Someone upthread asked how we can be proud of a police force that, in his view, did not respond nearly quickly enough. It is perhaps hard to understand, but we pride ourselves on not being a police state, on not having a paramilitary-style police, or an armed police. There are of course those, primarily on the right, who would like to see more "law and order" and to have a police more like those in other European countries, but they have not used this incident to further that view, so far.

Please understand that we have never had a real "shooting spree" in our national history ever before. What happened was something no one among us, except the perpetrator(s?), could ever have imagined.

It is slightly surreal to see page after page here of people discussing this issue which they're so far removed from and so ill equipped to have an informed opinion on. This is a small country - I know one person who was responsible in the chain of command in the police response, whose name has been mentioned in this thread or in the other one. I know several who were involved in the reponse in various functions. To suggest that anything was done to willfully delay the response is, from my perspective, insane. Maybe from your perspectives it makes sense. Good night.

[barracuda]

Everyone is so fucking offended by everything.

I'm sorry, but to hear people on this board sitting safely at their computer screens attempting to castigate individuals at the scene of a massacre for running away from a murderer (or two) wielding a machine gun is sickening. Victim blaming in such an instance is not only offensive, it's plebian as hell. I'm sure everyone who survived wishes they could have saved their friends from this horror. But by your standard, any rescuer with a boat who didn't go to the shore of the island to help people off shares some blame.

The shooter or shooters were firing scoped and modified automatic .223 rifles loaded with dum-dums. These arms are deadly accurate to 250 yards, and can kill with a lucky shot at twice that distance. This means that the shooter essentially had the entire island covered by his weapon at any given time, as well as nearly a quarter mile perimeter offshore should he move to the island's edge.

Of course, the people fleeing in panic on the boat or in the water didn't know the gun specs, but it's not hard to miss the sound of spraying automatic weapons fire on an island that is literally 1000 feet wide at its widest point. And every person on that island knew that a massive bomb had exploded in Oslo not two hours earlier.

Have you ever looked down the barrel of a gun? How did you feel at that moment? Did you charge the person with the weapon to disarm them? Did you do something heroic?

In any case, what do you expect to achieve by casting aspersions on the characters of the victims of this tragedy who are not government officials or police? Is there some "deep political" angle in it? Do you think they ought to be fined or investigated for their deeds? What do you really expect to come out of a discussion in which you slander these innocent people with your cowardly accusations?

[lupercal]

But I'm sure by tomorrow this will all melt into a blissful "no one could have predicted a crazy madman running loose on that faraway island, there's not a shred of evidence to the contrary and it's pure malicious madness to question this or any official story and all my facebook friends agree!"

Are you talking about us? Have no fear, Lupe, we're not that stupid.

[solace]

There is something creepy about a place so enamored of its government.

Maybe this will help you understand. From the helicopter thread:

I'm Norwegian. Nordic and VK hit the nail on the head about the culture difference. Despite superficial similarities, our culture, society and history is extremely different from America/Britain, so please keep that in mind.

Our police force is very small, and so is our military force. Probably shockingly small, to an American or Britain. Norwegian police has one helicopter, which is for obervation only and has no capacity for troop transportation. Besides, this helicopter is often not operational, either due to lack of funding (Oslo police district, which operates the helicopter, is chronically on a budget deficit) or, as in this case, due to the crew being on vacation. This sounds strange to you probably, but is completely normal to us.

Delta does not not have any helicopters, but can use Air force helicopters (Bell 416) stationed at Rygge for missions further away from Oslo. These helicopters are not on "stand-by" (to say the least).

When Delta was asked to respond to the shooting at Utøya, they were already sitting in their armed MB Gälendewagens at "Ground Zero" of the bombing in the center of Oslo (a video confirms this). Given this, driving was a no-brainer compared to scrambling helicopters from Rygge, and this has really been a non-issue here. The question of boats has not been raised at all.

Almost all the criticism of the police response has been in foreign media. Police here has received more praise than criticism, including by Utøya survivors. There is certainly no anger at the police whatsoever, that I've detected. Spontaneous applause has occurred, as was reported. People believe (as do I) that they did what they could with the resources they have.

Someone upthread asked how we can be proud of a police force that, in his view, did not respond nearly quickly enough. It is perhaps hard to understand, but we pride ourselves on not being a police state, on not having a paramilitary-style police, or an armed police. There are of course those, primarily on the right, who would like to see more "law and order" and to have a police more like those in other European countries, but they have not used this incident to further that view, so far.

Please understand that we have never had a real "shooting spree" in our national history ever before. What happened was something no one among us, except the perpetrator(s?), could ever have imagined.

It is slightly surreal to see page after page here of people discussing this issue which they're so far removed from and so ill equipped to have an informed opinion on. This is a small country - I know one person who was responsible in the chain of command in the police response, whose name has been mentioned in this thread or in the other one. I know several who were involved in the reponse in various functions. To suggest that anything was done to willfully delay the response is, from my perspective, insane. Maybe from your perspectives it makes sense. Good night.

Oh I understand it quite nicely. But I still find it creepy.

[Joe Hillshoist]

No, you are right. What this guy obviously needed to do was to travel north at fuil speed for "nearly an hour" so that nobody could possibly use the ferry to help any kids getting shot. No other course of action would have been remotely reasonable under the circumstances. Obviously, no other closer dock could have possibly been safe.

Geezus, dude, the guy saved seven people from the worst single incident mass-murderer in history, and you're second-guessing his actions and basically calling him a coward? What, is he an accomplice now, in your book?

You must practically be Batman IRL, dude. You're looking for a pretty high standard of heroism for a 20 year old ferryman.

He was Gilligan, not the skipper. And looking at the map, you can't go more than 10 miles north before you run out of lake. So basically the captain of the ferry and the leader of the Norwegian Labor youth organization saved their own asses and then drove the ferry as far away as they could possibly get from the kids who were getting murdered before running out of lake. Future leadership at its finest, right? I mean, they had just left all of their friends on the island. Perhaps they could have at least called the police and asked the cops where they would like the ferry delivered?

There is a police department basically right on the lake to the south in Vikersund, Norway.

What if they thought the guy was genuinely a cop, as were his mates on the shore. Myaybe they thought there was a coup?