Actually the Sandvika station I incorrectly said was closer is actually 23 minutes away from the campsite 600 meters from Utoya according to google maps. The station of jurisdiction (Honefoss) is just 22 minutes away from the campsite 600 meters from Utoya according to google maps. So I was in error. I simply assumed from the descriptions I had read here earlier that any station just 20 or so miles away would have had to have been the closer one. My apologies for not having my facts straight. Both stations were less than 20 minutes away for a cop car blaring sirens, and Honefoss was even slightly closer.
But maybe both of these stations could have cooperated on getting a boat and getting enough firepower in place rather than waiting for the strike force?
Of course, I am reaching here. They could hate each other and/or have no working relationship whatsoever.
Of course there is little point in expecting rapid, heavily-armed, responses in speedboats or even helicopters from a handful of ordinary policeman stationed in sleepy rural areas where there probably hasn't been any crime more serious than a bicycle theft or a drunken punch-up in the last ten years. So I don't understand why so much discussion is being devoted to their un-rapid, un-armed response.
Luckily, Norway has a "Readiness Troop" (Beredskapstroppen / "Delta Force") of highly-trained, well-equipped, elite specialists on constant standby for just such emergencies. I posted this information on page 2 of this thread and I'd strongly recommend reading it closely and following the links.
CAPTION:Norwegian Bell 412SP helicopters taking part in the NATO exercise Strong Resolve 2002
For air transport Beredskapstroppen uses military Bell 412 SP [HELICOPTERS] from the RNoAF.[Royal Norwegian Air Force]
From the RNoAF [Royal Norwegian Air Force] Aircraft Inventory (here at Wiki), we learn that they have not only eighteen (in figures:18) Bell 412 SP helicopters in service, but also six (in figures: 6) Westland Lynx helicopters and twelve (in figures:12) Westland Sea King helicopters in addition to that.
That's thirty-six (in figures: 36) helicopters in total.
About the RNoAF's twelve (in figures: 12) Westland Sea King helicopters:
Somewhere in there is the information that the Readiness Troop was deployed on well over 400 armed missions inside Norway last year, i.e., more than once a day on average. On two of those occasions they actually used their weapons. (I'll locate the link and the exact quote later if nobody else can.)
As sunny said back then, its the extreme slowness and incompetence of their response that should the focus of close attention. After all, the Utoya massacre began well over an hour after the massive bombing of the capital city, with several people killed & injured, and severe damage done to government buildings including the oil ministry. If ever there was a time when the Readiness Troop should have been exceptionally ready, it was surely then.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966
What are the relative sizes of the different police stations?
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This page says the Sandika station employs 346-350 people. So does this one.
So despite the assurances from our resident Nordic experts on these threads, we were not dealing with a remote location such that the only local police response choice consisted of summoning Andy Taylor and Barney Fife from their vacation retreat 50 km away. There was a large and modern police station that employs 350 people just 23 google map minutes from across the shore of Utoya.
Strange than nobody has mentioned this so far, at least not anywhere I have seen.
MacCruiskeen wrote:Of course there is little point in expecting rapid, heavily-armed, responses in speedboats or even helicopters from a handful of ordinary policeman stationed in sleepy rural areas where there probably hasn't been any crime more serious than a bicycle theft or a drunken punch-up in the last ten years. So I don't understand why so much discussion is being devoted to their un-rapid, un-armed response.
I think you need to be brought up to date on the fact that we have been misled about the paucity of nearby local forces.
Here is a picture of the local station located just 23 google map minutes from across the shore of Utoya:
Does that look like the home of Andy Taylor and Barney Fife as we have been led to believe?
Perhaps they could have sent a few of the 350 people who work at this station 20 km up the highway?
Considering their snappy police cars,
(video of Sandvika police station car port)
I'm also guessing they could have beaten the google map's 23 minute travel time estimate by at least 5 minutes.
Last edited by stickdog99 on Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
So there was a media helicopter that just happened to be in the neighborhood when the attack happened, ok that can happen. So the police just did not have timely acces to a helicopter when the attack happened, ok that can can happen too. But both happening at the same time to me is strange, even without going into details.
Jeff: I'm afraid that Earth, a-all of Earth, is nothing but an intergalactic reality-TV show. Man 2: My God. We're famous! [everyone stands and whoops it up] - script from "Cancelled" - South Park
Thanks, stickdog. All this time I've been imagining something like the rural police station in Flann O'Brien's The Third Policeman -- a small ramshackle building manned by two (in figures: 2) enormously fat underemployed plods who spend nearly all their working hours performing experiments on magnitude & infinity in the basement. Bicycle theft is the only crime they have ever have to contend with, and then not often.
Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966
MacCruiskeen wrote:Thanks, stickdog. All this time I've been imagining something like the rural police station in Flann O'Brien's The Third Policeman -- a small ramshackle building manned by two (in figures: 2) enormously fat underemployed plods who spend nearly all their working hours performing experiments on time & infinity in the basement. Bicycle theft is the only crime they have ever have to contend with, and then not often.
That's what we get for believing people who present themselves as local experts instead of investigating for ourselves.
MacCruiskeen wrote:Thanks, stickdog. All this time I've been imagining something like the rural police station in Flann O'Brien's The Third Policeman -- a small ramshackle building manned by two (in figures: 2) enormously fat underemployed plods who spend nearly all their working hours performing experiments on time & infinity in the basement. Bicycle theft is the only crime they have ever have to contend with, and then not often.
That's what we get for believing people who present themselves as local experts instead of investigating for ourselves.
How dare you do your own investigation and try to find out for yourself what's going on. You're suppose to be making us excuses for the POB instead.
MacCruiskeen wrote:Of course there is little point in expecting rapid, heavily-armed, responses in speedboats or even helicopters from a handful of ordinary policeman stationed in sleepy rural areas where there probably hasn't been any crime more serious than a bicycle theft or a drunken punch-up in the last ten years. So I don't understand why so much discussion is being devoted to their un-rapid, un-armed response.
I think you need to be brought up to date on the fact that we have been misled about the paucity of nearby local forces.
Here is a picture of the local station located just 23 google map minutes from across the shore of Utoya:
[clip]
Does that look like the home of Andy Taylor and Barney Fife as we have been led to believe?
Perhaps they could have sent a few of the 350 people who work at this station 20 km up the highway?
Considering their snappy police cars,
[snip]
(video of Sandvika police station car port)
I'm also guessing they could have beaten the google map's 23 minute travel time estimate by at least 5 minutes.
So it is of no consequence to your analysis that the police in Sandvika, in Asker og Baerum Police District, would not be notified by the Buskerud emergency centre like the police in Honefoss, in Nordre Buskerud Police District, was?
Or that Asker og Baerum police would only come to the help of Nordre Buskerud police if the latter officially requested their help, as they apparently did at some point on the 22nd:
Police in Asker and Bærum assists
At 19.30 o'clock came the message that a person has been arrested in connection with the shooting.
It is the police in Buskerud that handles the operation on Utøya, while the Asker and Bærum police assists.
- We have officers at work in connection with this incident confirms communications advisor Torill Frogner at Asker and Bærum police to Budstikka.
This is how the Asker og Baerum fire department tells about their efforts to help with the fallout of the attacks:
ABBV in Oslo and Utøya
Asker and Bærum fire department has participated in the work after the bomb explosion in Oslo and the shooting of Utøya. Here is a brief account of our efforts.
Asker and Bærum fire department was soon after the explosion Friday requested to assist Oslo fire and rescue agency with two crew cars. Both cars with crews were in work in 1 floor of the tower block in the government building, where they assisted with rescue efforts.
Drammen region's fire departments assisted the Asker and Bærum fire department to cover the contingency of Asker.
Tuesday, 25.07.2011, we were asked to send a climbing team to Utøya. Our climb preparedness team from Gjettum fire station attended along with two rope teams from respectively the Drammen Region and Ringerike fire department to crawl inaccessible ledges on Utøya. In addition, they help to keep a watch with the police.
Notice the wording: Asker og Baerum emergency services take part after the local authorities request assistance. They are not expected nor have the information available to be first responders in the neighbouring districts.
Bureaucratic and organisational constraints being what they are, I can't see the actual relevance of the admittedly handsome buildings or nifty police cruisers used by the Sandvika police to the matter at hand.
Yes, of course. Deputy Barney Fife would have gotten very angry if Sheriff Andy Taylor were to have called in the Raleigh police to back them up simply because the Raleigh police had far superior firepower, had far more ready manpower and were equidistant to the scene of the crisis.
So not only are Norwegians notoriously peaceful, tranquil, slow moving, backward and troubled by police efficiency, they are also intractably bureaucratic, even (especially?) in the most dire of crises.
Should we have a thread to focus on the Nazi and his Nazi associates and possible Nazi co-conspirators? Could this be the faster way to get at the core, including of a possible conspiracy?
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We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.
To Justice my maker from on high did incline: I am by virtue of its might divine, The highest Wisdom and the first Love.
Perhaps so, Jack, considering that at least part of the thrust of this thread seems to be centered around the idea that the Norwegian police state isn't run efficiently enough. Makes you wonder how timely their train schedules are kept. Probably late, late, late.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
