Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:06 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Human nature does show a lot of variation -- on the individual level. On the aggregate, though, we absolutely do not. This is the real lesson of the Terry Dolans and Lee Atwaters of the world, to me. They understood (maybe...Dolan did at least) that they were engaging with a fundamentally different organism when they broadcast mass messages for the purpose of mass fundraising. This is something we see in physics, too: different levels of scale operate on different design rules and geometries.

"Make them angry and stir up the hostilities. The shriller you are, the easier it is to raise funds. That's the nature of the Beast." -- Terry Dolan


Its not that its easier to intiate bastardry in a populatpion, or drive them toward particular behaviours (Tho that may be the case in the long run.)

Its that no one stirs up the other POV the right way. Its not just the right that does this. MLK for example - look what he did cas he appealed to collective instincts the way Back or Reagan did. Even Obama did this, he just had nothing to back it up with.
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:59 pm

Joe, I'm not sure I follow but I'm interested...any expansion = most welcome
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Luther Blissett » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:50 am

eyeno wrote:
I don't like saying this, but I also suspect it's because they see human nature more clearly than their more idealist opposition can.



Predatory eye. Its always lookin, at U...


I think humans are, by nature, inherently good. It's just all that class training and social engineering that makes some of us the other way fully.
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:56 am

^^Do you feel that way about chimpanzees? Serious question.
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Nordic » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:43 am

Personally I think that about 80% of humans are inherently good. And about 67% do the right thing when given the right information, and the opportunity.

That's where the propaganda and the brainwashing kicks in. That's why they spend SOOOOO much freaking money and effort on it.

Because they have to sway a big chunk of the population. They mainly go after the "Guardian" temperment types, because those types are most swayed by authority. Those people are 38% of the population (if my memory serves me correctly). I believe those are the "SJ"s in the Meyers-Briggs temperment tests. They're the easiest to manipulate IMO.
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:54 am

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Joe, I'm not sure I follow but I'm interested...any expansion = most welcome


Its kind of the opposite of what Terry Dolan says.

Dolan is (I presume) referring to the way the political right appeals to, for want of a better word, populism.

The authoritarian right of politics is all about individuality and personal freedom, but it appeals directly to collective emotions and aspirations. The left, what there is of it, often makes claims about our collective nature while appealing to individuals and their own personal worldviews and to their rational side (tho ultimately they are trying to generate emotional repsonses of a sort. But it rarely makes appeals on an abstract but emotional level any more.

I'm kind of struggling to get a handle on this right now, I might nneed to wait till I'm a bit less addled :lol2: , but its something I can see with groups, from a sporting team to a population. If you have a population fearful its easy to get them to band together and follow a certain series of reaction. Xenophobia has been used by politicians for ages as I'm sure you've noticed.

But if you can inspire people to try and achieve something then they can bond in similar ways. If we can set out to achieve this. Obama did this - the hype was about some good stuff in humans thinking it had a chance to express itself, and if the US was a place where people could have come together to pressure Obama to live up to his promises, instead of just letting him do what he wanted...

he needed a politically opposite version of the tea party hassling him, and generating enough power to make him take notice. AS it is the only power he has to listen to is corporate power.

Union movements did this throughtout the early 20th century when they organised and got reasonably decent conditions for their members, at least in Australia.

I'm not expressing all this well tho, I'll reread and think about it later.

Its like the difference between sociology and advertising, and how they (as in those worldviews) see the world (pretending for a moment that they are entities that are capable of generating a worldview.)
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:50 am

Here's a hopeful, relevant angle on the question: viewtopic.php?p=423304#p423304
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Luther Blissett » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:56 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:^^Do you feel that way about chimpanzees? Serious question.


I don't think we have the capacity to understand consciousness, but for right now, "I think so." (Even after my coworker showed me the video of the chimpanzees planning an attack on a lesser primate and ripping him apart while still alive and breathing. It ranks up there as one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen. And while I don't think said chimps had been corrupted by wealth, maybe they were corrupted by power.)
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:32 am

Luther Blissett wrote:
Wombaticus Rex wrote:^^Do you feel that way about chimpanzees? Serious question.


I don't think we have the capacity to understand consciousness, but for right now, "I think so." (Even after my coworker showed me the video of the chimpanzees planning an attack on a lesser primate and ripping him apart while still alive and breathing. It ranks up there as one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen. And while I don't think said chimps had been corrupted by wealth, maybe they were corrupted by power.)


We don't know the context of that action tho do we.
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:16 am

Thanks, Luther. My relationship to Essential Human Goodness is best summarized by that iconic poster on Fox Mulder's office wall...

Image

I loved this:

Luther Blissett wrote:And while I don't think said chimps had been corrupted by wealth, maybe they were corrupted by power.)
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:02 pm

What if optimism only stems from the fear that, to believe that human nature is inherently "bad," leads in and of itself to fear of fellow man, followed by hatred? Not a comfortable thought, but how often are actions or ideas motivated by fear positive forces?
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:00 am

Not a comfortable thought, but how often are actions or ideas motivated by fear positive forces?


Thats an interesting question. In many ways what we do at a wildfire is motivated by fear, and the plans/sops we use are motivated by fear, in that everyone is scared of dying on a firefront, or should be, if they are ever gonna be on one, co it could happen so easily. Thats a kind of controlled fear tho. It isn't blind panic that drives the plans and procedures we use, its a reasonable fear of the worst possible consequences.
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Ben D » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:52 pm

Image

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/22/fresh-hacked-climate-science-emails

Fresh round of hacked climate science emails leaked online

guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 22 November 2011 15.29 GMT

A file containing 5,000 emails has been made available in an apparent attempt to repeat the impact of 2009's similar release.

A new round of hacked emails between climate scientists has been released online. Photograph: NOAA
A fresh tranche of private emails exchanged between leading climate scientists throughout the last decade was released online on Tuesday. The unauthorised publication is an apparent attempt to repeat the impact of a similar release of emails on the eve of the Copenhagen climate summit in late 2009.

The initial email dump was apparently timed to disrupt the Copenhagen climate talks. It prompted three official inquiries in the UK and two in the US into the working practices of climate scientists. Although these were critical of the scientists' handling of Freedom of Information Act requests and lack of openness they did not find fault with the climate change science they had produced.

Norfolk police have said the new set of emails is "of interest" to their investigation to find the perpetrator of the initial email release who has not yet been identified.

The emails appear to be genuine, but the University of East Anglia said the "sheer volume of material" meant it was not yet able to confirm that they were. One of the emailers, the climate scientist Prof Michael Mann, has confirmed that he believes they are his messages. The lack of any emails post-dating the 2009 release suggests that they were obtained at the same time, but held back. Their release now suggests they are intended to cause maximum impact before the upcoming climate summit in Durban which starts on Monday.

In the new release a 173MB zip file called "FOIA2011" containing more than 5,000 new emails, was made available to download on a Russian server called Sinwt.ru today. An anonymous entity calling themselves "FOIA" then posted a link to the file on at least four blogs popular with climate sceptics – Watts Up With That, Climate Audit, TallBloke and The Air Vent. The same tactic was used in 2009 when the first 160MB batch of emails were released after being obtained – possibly illegally – from servers based at the University of East Anglia, where a number of the climate scientists involved were based.

One marked difference from the original 2009 release is that the person or persons responsible has included a message headed "background and context" which, for the first time, gives an insight into their motivations. Following some bullet-pointed quotes such as "Over 2.5 billion people live on less than $2 a day" and, "Nations must invest $37 trillion in energy technologies by 2030 to stabilise greenhouse gas emissions at sustainable levels," the message states:

"Today's decisions should be based on all the information we can get, not on hiding the decline. This archive contains some 5.000 emails picked from keyword searches. A few remarks and redactions are marked with triple brackets. The rest, some 220.000, are encrypted for various reasons. We are not planning to publicly release the passphrase. We could not read every one, but tried to cover the most relevant topics."

The use of points instead of commas to mark the thousands when writing a number – highly unusual in both the UK or US – is sure to lead to speculation about the nationality of those responsible.

The message then includes a sample of cherry-picked quotes selected from a small handful of the emails focusing on apparent disagreements between the scientists, the workings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and attempts to block climate sceptics from securing documents from the scientists via freedom of information requests. Many of the same issues were highlighted in the 2009 release.

One of the most damaging claims in 2009 was that Prof Phil Jones, the head of the UEA's Climatic Research Institute had deleted emails to avoid FOI request. One of the reviews into the content of the emails, conducted by Sir Muir Russell, concluded that "emails might have been deleted in order to make them unavailable should a subsequent request be made for them" - something that Jones has denied. At the time CRU was coming under sustained pressure by an organised campaign to release information, which the scientists saw as distracting from their work.

The new emails include similar statements apparently made by the scientists about avoiding requests for information. In one email, which has not yet been specifically confirmed as genuine, Jones writes: "I've been told that IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] is above national FOI Acts. One way to cover yourself and all those working in AR5 [the IPCC's fifth Assessment Report] would be to delete all emails at the end of the process".

In a statement, the University of East Anglia said: "While we have had only a limited opportunity to look at this latest post of 5,000 emails, we have no evidence of a recent breach of our systems. If genuine, (the sheer volume of material makes it impossible to confirm at present that they are all genuine) these emails have the appearance of having been held back after the theft of data and emails in 2009 to be released at a time designed to cause maximum disruption to the imminent international climate talks."

It continued: "As in 2009, extracts from emails have been taken completely out of context. Following the previous release of emails scientists highlighted by the controversy have been vindicated by independent review, and claims that their science cannot or should not be trusted are entirely unsupported. They, the university and the wider research community have stood by the science throughout, and continue to do so."

Mann, director of the Earth System Science Centre at Penn State University, who is quoted in the batch of released emails described the release as "truly pathetic".

When asked if they were genuine, he said: "Well, they look like mine but I hardly see anything that appears damning at all, despite them having been taken out of context. I guess they had very little left to work with, having culled in the first round the emails that could most easily be taken out of context to try to make me look bad."

He said, the people behind the release were "agents doing the dirty bidding of the fossil fuel industry know they can't contest the fundamental science of human-caused climate change. So they have instead turned to smear, innuendo, criminal hacking of websites, and leaking out-of-context snippets of personal emails in their effort to try to confuse the public about the science and thereby forestall any action to combat this critical threat. Its right out of the tried-and-true playbook of climate change denial."

An ongoing investigation by Norfolk Police into the 2009 release of emails has so far failed to result in any charges or arrests. A spokesperson said: "We are aware of the release of the document cache. The contents will be of interest to our investigation which is ongoing."
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Simulist » Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:08 pm

What do you find substantive in this latest batch of hacked climate science emails, Ben D? (I fail to see how this is "Series Two" so far.)

It sounds like some emails got leaked online. But, other than this being an invasion of privacy, so what?
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Re: Case closed: “Climategate” was manufactured

Postby Ben D » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:05 pm

Well Simulist, let us wait and see.....

Some initial internet reaction here....

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/22/climategate-2-0/
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