Huge explosion in Oslo

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Harvey » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:40 am

Nordic wrote:Ah, yes, bring on God's apocalpyse oh ye fallen men!


Nothing of the sort, and perhaps at the same time, exactly that. I believe the universe is structered with mind boggling complexity, with repeating recursive symbol, meaning, function, and order at every level. In a sense there is no such thing as coincidence, but at the same time, the form allows for coincidence and accident. i believe the universe is steadily improving itself. It may be the reason that the universal constants are less constant than we thought.

I'd love to know what the physisists among us think of that. :)

You see patterns because the patterns exist, but imposing meaning upon the patterns is like trying to interpret every breeze as a specific sign. Even if it was, it would still be impossible to navigate, because the perception itself is imperfect.

Does that make any sense?

Perhaps this discussion needs to find it's own thread. Sorry for the extended derail!
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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eye don't want to talk about it

Postby IanEye » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:39 am

Nordic, sometimes you make it almost too easy....


Image


IanEye wrote:viewtopic.php?p=219334#p219334

Image

Oh God save history
Oh God save your mad parade
Oh God have mercy all crimes are paid

When there's no future how can there be sin
We're the flowers in the dustbin
We're the poison in your human machine
We're the future - your future

God save the queen - we mean it man
There is no future in England's dreaming....


- - -
Image

If I stand all alone, will the shadow hide the color of my heart
Blue for the tears, black for the night's fears
The stars in the sky don't mean nothin' to you, they're a mirror

I don't want to talk about it, how you broke my heart...


- - -
Image

"As I have passed through this gate
No other prisoner shall enter and get through"

And so it is until now
The gate has been locked, so what?

Wat a liiv an bambaie
When the two sevens clash - it dread




Nordic wrote:I don't know if it's really all that complicated. I think the powerful Wall Street assholes saw taxpayer money starting to be handed out by the truckload with the takeovers of Freddie and Fannie and then AIG, so they all wanted to get in on the game.

These kinds of people are the "why not try this?" kinds of guys.

"Why NOT try to ask the government for 700 billion dollars and see if they give it to us? It's worth a shot!"

So they tried to frighten us into giving it to them.

We managed to call their bluff and viola. Back to business as normal.

The fact that today everything suddenly seems nice and normal again, with the market way up sorta seems like Wall Street is admitting that the whole extortion try didn't work and they're moving on.

I think it was as simple as that.

What these guys do is try to make money. And the ends justifies the means. Their system, their game, is utterly amoral. They know it and we should know it. They will do everything they can to make money within the framework of rules that exist, and they will push just beyond the limits of those rules and try to get away with it, and they will also, at the same time, constantly try to get the rules changed by any means possible.

It's kind of like germs and your immune system. As soon as the germs run your immune system, like with HIV, you're dead.






.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Pierre d'Achoppement » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:21 am

Image
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby 2012 Countdown » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:43 am

Harvey wrote:
Nordic wrote:Ah, yes, bring on God's apocalpyse oh ye fallen men!


Nothing of the sort, and perhaps at the same time, exactly that. I believe the universe is structered with mind boggling complexity, with repeating recursive symbol, meaning, function, and order at every level. In a sense there is no such thing as coincidence, but at the same time, the form allows for coincidence and accident. i believe the universe is steadily improving itself. It may be the reason that the universal constants are less constant than we thought.

I'd love to know what the physisists among us think of that. :)

You see patterns because the patterns exist, but imposing meaning upon the patterns is like trying to interpret every breeze as a specific sign. Even if it was, it would still be impossible to navigate, because the perception itself is imperfect.

Does that make any sense?

Perhaps this discussion needs to find it's own thread. Sorry for the extended derail!


Perfect sense. Allow me to unclarify. Our interpretations are subjective, biased analysis of more commonly occurring underlying substructures whose makeup and quantity, function independently and unintended to connote anything other than is part in the whole.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Harvey » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:50 am

2012 Countdown wrote:Perfect sense. Allow me to unclarify. Our interpretations are subjective, biased analysis of more commonly occurring underlying substructures whose makeup and quantity, function independently and unintended to connote anything other than is part in the whole.


:D Damn i love it here. Don't know why i ever felt i needed to leave!
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Nordic » Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:51 am

damn, ianeye, that's pretty weird. i don't think i've ever looked at my post count before. classic bit of synchronicity there.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby elfismiles » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:38 pm


Norway’s foreign minister says country is ready to recognize a Palestinian state

Video: The Palestinian president said Friday that he will ask the U.N. Security Council next week to endorse his statehood bid, a step that would risk a threatened U.S. veto in the council.

By Associated Press, Updated: Sunday, September 18, 9:23 AM

OSLO, Norway — Norway’s foreign minister says the Scandinavian country will back Palestinian officials in their appeal to the U.N. for statehood.

In a Facebook post late Saturday, Jonas Gahr Stoere wrote “Palestinians have the right to go to the U.N.” and Norway is “ready to recognize a Palestinian state.”

He also urged for talks to start between Israel and Palestinians, saying “only negotiations can solve things between Israel and Palestinians.”

Frustrated by their inability to win concessions from Israel, the Palestinians have tried to gain attention with a high stakes wager on statehood and U.N. membership.

On Sunday, senior U.S. and European officials will meet to try to find a way to bring Israel and the Palestinians back to stalled negotiations.

Copyright 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eur ... story.html

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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby Peachtree Pam » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:07 am

This pretty well convinces me that Breivik was not the the lone wolf shooter. I now wonder if he shot anyone. He may have played some decoy, patsy part. This is NOT Breivik in this photo - the man is too slender.





Anders Behring Breivik captured on CCTV during Oslo bomb attack

Image



Breivik, dressed in police uniform, is seen carrying a pistol as he walks away from a car after placing a bomb in Oslo Photo: REUTERS



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ttack.html


Oslo Police District spokesman Roar Hansen says a photograph published by Norwegian internet news service ABC Nyheter on Thursday is authentic and came from monitoring cameras at government headquarters.

Mr Hansen said that the picture has not been released by police but was part of a confidential police report submitted to lawyers assisting relatives and survivors of the July 22 attacks.


Breivik detonated the bomb, then drove to a youth camp on the island of Utoya where he killed 69 people in a shooting spree.

Meanwhile, a Norwegian appeals court decided on Thursday that the self-confessed killer of 77 people in two July 22 attacks will appear behind closed doors in his court appearance next week.

...snip...
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby AlicetheKurious » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:42 am

Don't know if it's relevant in any way, but I used to work (many, many, many years ago) for the Palestine Red Crescent (the Palestinian branch of the International Committee of the Red Cross). Norwegian medical and para-medical professionals, especially nurses, comprised a majority of the many highly-skilled international volunteers who sacrificed time and money to work in the PRC's hospitals in exchange for room and board, and the Norwegian government, along with NGO's was a major contributor (in terms of money and equipment) to Palestinian humanitarian work. Because of my experience with the PRC, I've always had a very good feeling about Norwegians, especially their practical altruism and widespread solidarity with the Palestinian people.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:40 am

Breivik Called Police Ten Times. Local Police Told There Were Four Perps

(bad google tranlation)

Alleged terrorist Anders Behring Breivik said in interviews that he called police several times to surrender. Yet he continued to shoot the children between the conversations.

Many of the calls of those on Utøya to the emergency number did not go through to the police. So the police missed vital information.

Under questioning Tuesday and Wednesday, the accused terrorist accused testified that he repeatedly took a break from shooting to call the police emergency number 112 to surrender, writes Aftenposten. He did not bring his phone, and therefore must have used the mobile of one of the victims, which he found in a shed at Utøya.

- He explains that well before he was arrested he called the police. He says he called ten times, and that he got an answer on two occasions, his lawyer, Geir Lippe City, told Aftenposten .

According to Lippe City should his client told the police his full name and asked the police for confirmation that the message that he wanted to surrender was accepted. He also asked the police to call him back to confirm that this message was received. But according to his lawyer, the police do not return his call. Witnesses have told of a break in the shooting, which may fit with this information.

Lippe City thinks, according to Aftenposten, the 32-year-old rang the police to avoid even being shot. Breivik According to defense attorneys have told him at that time had "reached their (THEIR???) goal," and saw the damage that so extensive that he would get media coverage and spread his manifesto.

Police confirmed to Aftenposten that the operations center in South Buskerud Police District received and made recordings of a conversation with Anders Behring Breivik.

Emergency calls from Utøya did not go through on the 112

Internal reports state that North Buskerud police were poorly equipped to handle the information as terrorist accused Anders Behring Breivik set about massacring children at Utøya 22 July, according to Aftenposten.

A number of eyewitnesses who could have given detailed information about what was going on Utøya, about how the terrorist accused appeared and it was more than one perpetrator (???), never came through on the police emergency number 112

Lack of information (???) led to police long believed it could be four perpetrators of Utøya. According to Aftenposten, this may have led to the first patrol which arrived at 17.52, not pulled out with one of the many boats of volunteers who drove back and forth to rescue children out of the water.

When the emergency services began to flow in (when was this?), Nordre Buskerud Police District had only one person on duty at the operations center in Hønefoss. While she took all the phone call, Sergeant Linn Heidi Tin Holt was also responsible for planning enforcement action and summoning the crew.

The phones she could not take were transferred over to the police in Drammen in Buskerud Southern Police District, which had three people to receive calls.

In addition to police problems with accepting all emergency services, the half of mobile calls have been broken due to overloading the telephone network around Utøya. It shows the number of hours log to Telenor.

an even worse translation
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:09 am

Helicopters

At 6:55 p.m. to 3:00 and a half hour after the bomb went off in the Government District 22 July - took the first of three ready-made Bell 412 helicopters from the Army of the Rygge airbase. Two hours earlier, police first informal request passed to the military for helicopter support. The possibilities for such support is probably less now than if Norway had not helped in Afghanistan. Three of our 18 Bell helicopters and personnel to those stationed there. Force admits that it comes at the expense of readiness here at home.

- Of course it has a consequence. Before Afghanistan, Armed Forces helicopters could provide support for things that now have been given low priority, said Maj. Eystein Kvarving, spokesman for the Chief. He mentions support for the border guard and emergency preparedness in Inner Troms as examples.

- Can also have had implications for preparedness at Rygge 22 July?

- In general, the Afghanistan mission had consequences for helicopter operations in Norway. Information relating to any emergency at the Bell 412 22 July is of a nature that it must be considered closer to what can be given of information, says Kvarving.

The police helicopter is only intended for monitoring, not transportation. If the police need transport helicopter or helicopter for the use of troops they need to ask the military for assistance.

It has in the days after the terrorist attacks has been questioned why it took so long before the helicopters were in the air.

Criticism has also focused to two other helicopters, the police helicopter that was on the ground and a Sea King helicopter was on Voldsløkka. Times quoted sources in the police Wednesday that the police helicopter could pick up a sniper in Oslo and shot the perpetrator from the air over Utøya. Flight time from London to Utøya is eight minutes.

Police reject that claim that they could have been on Utøya faster if they had used a police helicopter with a sniper.

Sea King helicopter, which was requisitioned by the health care system and the country in Oslo at 17.09, could be used to transport the Delta crew to Utøya. The police knew, however, not the helicopter when they decided that the Delta squad was to drive to Utøya. Fuller believes that knowledge of the helicopter would not have had any significance. The helicopter had the case been transferred from health care to use that assistance from the military.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:16 am

"It was infinitely long time before anyone came"

The volunteer helpers on Utvika camp had no luck when they asked for help to rescue survivors from Utøya.

- We asked ourselves many times how it was the police were not yer hear, and why the ambulances were not driving down to us, says Tone Merete Nilsen cooling. She was one of many campers who ran down to the pier on Utvika camp when they realized that something terrible was going on Utøya. Several went out in boats to pick up survivors, Nilsen Ice was among those who tried to help the water's edge.

- We were here still do not understand why it took so long before the police arrived, she says.

- What is it most important that the Commission answer?

- The most important thing is to get answers as to why the police and ambulances did not arrive earlier. We felt that it was infinitely long time before anyone came.

- Helpless

The terrible scenes which took place on Utøya and Utvika Camping from 17.20 Friday 22 July has been described in the media for almost three weeks. 250-300 survivors swam or were brought here by boats running shuttled out of the fjord to rescue the children.

A few hundred meters away there were ambulances and police officers.

- For me, the worst thing that we did not know for sure how to help the injured who arrived in the country. We could see that someone had very severe injuries. You feel very helpless, says Nilsen cooling.

The police have explained that it struck shot into the water near the breakwater. The area was not cleared.

The alleged terrorist shot several times at boats and survivors who tried to swim away.

People had to help and do what we could. It's strange to think that it was too dangerous for a rescue team to be here, says Nilsen cooling.

- We are not hunting scapegoats. People just want to understand why things were as they were, and why it was not possible to get help from police and rescuers earlier.

The history of AMK showed that campers had to do the job of rescuing the survivors themselves until 18.50 when the police gave clearance. The first ambulances had been waiting since 17.33. The severely injured from Utøya arrived at Ullevål Hospital at 19.57.

Camping guests tried to persuade police, ambulances and rescue people to come down to the beach. -We called several times to 113 We were only told that they could not come down because the area was not cleared.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:25 am

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... RWSA-N98NQ

In two weeks, campers and cabin people in boats around Utøya been hailed as heroes because they risked their lives to save AUF youths on the run from the mass murderer. Now six key witnesses have asked very critical questions about why police first patrol at Utvika not pulled straight out.

Police in Buskerud has previously stated that the first police patrol arrived at the ferry landing on the mainland 600 meters from Utøya at. 17.52. Thus, the first police come out on Utøya much earlier than 18.25, which was when the emergency squad landed, according to several anonymous witnesses who participated in rescue operations at Utøya while the massacre took place.

...

According to Aftenposten's conversations with guests, boaters and cottage owners, the police had a dozen boats available to developers camp and the surrounding area. Several of the boats were already on the water.

- There was no reason to swim, a swarm of boats was here. There were also people at the pier with access to the boats, said one of the guests on Utvika camp, who took part in the desperate relief efforts at the pier.

- We saw the police car coming. We can not understand what they did. They could come over right away, said a neighboring house, which helped to rescue several people from Utøya.

- The police's explanation does not hold. There is much we do not get to vote, says another who took part in the rescue efforts.

"Where are the police?" Was shouted on the analog connection from AMK central.

If the police had chosen to take one of the boats that were available to developers camp, could be the first police patrol was on Utøya already approx. at. 18, 25 minutes before the specially trained and well armed emergency crews went ashore.

But it would be a dangerous mission with great danger that the first police also would have been shot by the terrorist accused man.

It is an open question whether the two lightly armed police would have survived if they had been sent out on Utøya. Anders Behring Breivik was better armed, and there were rumors that there were several perpetrators of the island.

Had the procedure

Aftenposten spoke of Saturday's secret 'shooting in progress "procedure, which all police districts have had extensive training in. The procedure was introduced after the school massacre in Finland, and clearly states that police first crews on the scene where they fear a massacre takes place, move right in and be willing to risk their lives.

The first patrol began - according Buskerud Police District - "to observe the traffic to and from Utøya". Then they started to help young people who paddled to shore.


Chose the wrong starting point

Local Well-known, witnesses and boaters are also very critical of the police decided to put out their own politibåt and scramble out of contents rod just inside Storøya, 3 km from Utøya. TV news showed images Tuesday of the failed operation, where the over-loaded boat police have engine failure, take in water and police going into a passing boat.

Earlier, police claimed that this saved them for ten minutes. Tuesday evening, said police in Oslo that the space that was chosen was "not appropriate". The election led to about 3.8 miles to the trip by both ferry and development camp, which lay opposite Utøya. The place was chosen by Buskerud police. In addition, the boat five times as long.

Will be anonymous

The six independent witnesses do not want Aftenposten using their name, even though several of them have been interviewed about their heroic deeds in the past. However, they are willing to repeat the criticism, if they are being questioned by police and interviewed by 22 July Commission. Common to all is that they believe can not wait one more year on the Government's commission to answer questions.

- For both the survivors, survivors and us who were present, it is important to answer this quickly. It will make it easier to move on. This is not talking about hunting scapegoats or hindsight, everyone understands that it has been possible to do continuous assessment which in hindsight may have proved to be wrong, says one of the sources.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:33 am

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... -_tmnBgDHw

Shortly after the emergency squad set out from Storøya, was the small, overloaded dinghy engine failure and began taking in water. Here they landed on Utøya after having switched to a civilian boat.

- Out of the question to put out a boat from the pier Utvika

Several criticized the police for the choice of starting point and the boat. Police face criticism directed at them.

In Aftenposten Thursday several eye witnesses level a number of critical questions about police procedure in connection with the massacre of Utøya.

More describes how desperate they were that it took a long time before the police arrived, and that the first police patrol served as observation post and controlled the traffic to and from the island.

They believe that if police had used a camping boat from Utvika, they would have been on Utøya 25 minutes before the emergency squad took to land.


- There was a swarm of boats here. There were also people at the pier with access to the boat, said one of the guests on Utvika camping to Aftenposten today.

Besides criticizing the witnesses, who participated in rescue work, the emergency squad chose to stake out Storøya - located 3.8 km from Utøya - in a small rubber boat that proved to be ineffective: It had a breakdown and started taking on water .

The rescue was a boat that was located nearby which was used to get terrified and injured children from the water.

Utvika Camping is not suitable

In a statement today the police denied, however, that it was appropriate to put out a boat from the pier at Utvika camping, just 600 meters from Utøya.

- Kaia by Utøya pier has not båtutsettingsplass, and it was not known that it was possible to put the boat there. For tactical reasons, this was also unacceptable in relation to the information that was available, said chief of staff in Northern Buskerud Police District, Magne Rustad.

Utvika camping was not an option as the choice for the command post for the sake of the civilians who were there, said Rust, who says the Keystone Kops chose Storøya for several reasons.

..

At today's Aftenposten describes the witnesses how they tried to persuade the rescue crews to come down to the beach, where serious injured youths were taken ashore by volunteers who drove the shuttle to Utøya.

But because the area was not cleared, they did not get the ambulances and other help crew take to the beach. It was deemed too risky, because it struck shot just off the breakwater.


Police in Nordre Buskerud Police District, Sissel Hammer, said that the police did everything in their power to save lives.

- The extent and severity in relation to the tragedy that took place on Utøya we have never before experienced. Whether the choices made that day would have consequences for the human lives could have been saved, is speculation. All aspects of this heinous act and the police's handling of it will be evaluated. We called in all available resources when the message came in, and I know that all our crews who worked the day did everything they could to save lives, says Hammer.
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Re: Huge explosion in Oslo

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:44 am

77 Minutes

It took 77 minutes to beat the national alarm

No one will answer why it took an hour and 17 minutes before the police beat the national alarm.

And the border was first ordered two hours and 36 minutes after the terror struck.

Why it took so remarkably long time, is not easy to answer.

Evaluation

The country's 27 police, NCIS and the National Police Directorate (POD) notes that the question of the national alert is a central part of the police evaluation after 22 July. Why would the police agencies do not provide information about the system worked?

The electronic system will contribute to rapid and reliable detection of situations that require rapid and coordinated law enforcement efforts, according to police handbook for crisis management.

Office of the alarm was sent at. 16.43. With reference to media reports police districts were asked to look for a gray van linked to the bomb that was triggered at. 15.26.

First two hours and 32 minutes later, at. 18.06, NCIS gave orders that it immediately should be implemented Nordic alarm which means border closing. It was only three minutes before the emergency squad landed on Utøya.

The responsibility to trigger the national alarm and Nordic Alarm is located at NCIS, at the request of the police districts and the Police Directorate.

A dedicated PC with a user identity to be, according to the internal instruction, standing in the operations center and always be turned on in all police districts. PC should only be used to send and receive alarm messages - and must be restarted once a day.

VG has asked all 27 police districts where the PC that receives alarm messages are physically standing - and if they were actually turned on that Friday. They refuse to answer any questions.

...
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