#OCCUPYWALLSTREET campaign - September 17

[Hammer of Los]

I have this overwhelming feeling that the moment is now.

The occupy and anon movements are the spark.

Self aware netizens must unite in action.

We, you and I will be the 10% tipping point.

More change than you can imagine is on its way.

[Jeff]

[illogik]

hey all

i love RI, haven't really posted much, but i got get in there a bit in terms of the black bloc. you may disagree with their tactics, but to believe they are all controlled by the police and ruling class is crazy. i don't agree with the use of the tactic in all cases, but damn lets keep the eyes on the prize. the the ruling class and their police henchmen are the violent ones killing our planet, not some BB smashing some windows. it's easy to see it as an aberration in NAmerican politics, but i'm over in europe doing a tour right now, and it's been part of the resistance movement for several decades. i mean look at greece, the anarchists and BB have helped to create the conditions for bring down the EU. in spain the occupy protests trashed all the banks in their path.

i respect the disagreement in tactics, like i say i don't always agree with it myself and believe sometime it can be used to further the repressive agenda, but lets have some rigor in our nuance. to believe it is always police who are doing this is so disempowering. people can get upset and challenge the status quo in a way that might not satisfy the privileged liberal mindset, some people don't believe breaking a window is violence, vandalism at the worst. seeing so called pacifists physically attack BB members for breaking a window is the height of irony.

anarchists do many things to organize communities and BB members or their friends are not going to just out themselves and admit to being a part of it, that's the whole point of an anonymous BB. this can be infiltrated definitely, but i have friends who have spent over half a year in jail for smashing a police car windshield, and they are definitely NOT a police officer.

i personally think many in the BB realize the insanity and violence of the current system, and are willing to put themselves on the line to challenge it by any means necessary. there is a sense of urgency in radical communities that if we don't change things we're collectively fucked, all life, the whole planet. i guess time will tell if non violent pacifist protest is more effective then radically confronting the power structure, what i'd like to see is both sides realizing the importance of the other, much as MLK and malcolm X were able to see each others value. if you don't let in kings dream, you'll face malcolm's fury. there is room for all, and like in greece the repression will continue to grow, and at some point standing up to the thugs becomes duty and responsibility.

just as in greece, the US and world economy will spiral into the abyss and take the middle class with it, demanding that they pay for the banksters greed.




and as you can see it's not just the BB there that are standing up.

here's a quote from the coup's boots riley on occupy oakland:

"I suggest that at this time, serious debate about what's happening at Occupy Oakland should happen in person at the General Assembly. The internet often causes people to speak in tones that they normally might not use in person- harsh, abrasive, and authoritarian. This is causing greater division. Also, people that haven't been involved in Occupy Oakland, some even based in other cities, are part of the threads and have an influence on their direction. There are already splinter Occupy Oakland facebook pages, which is disturbing. Aside from that, I'd like to just say that what we did during the day yesterday was not "peaceful". We caused millions of dollars in profit loss, which is powerful and forceful. Gandhi was against strikes that didn't let scabs cross the picket line, because stopping someone from what they wanted to do was violent. As well, most of our heroes who are known to be part of violent revolutions, did not use violence in every instance. We have decided in the General Assembly to reclaim foreclosed properties and help neighborhoods use the space for their needs, which is a forceful action- not pacifist. So, it seems that the discussion is merely around tactic and process. And the context is that everyone that is arguing with each other about those things has just helped facilitate one of the biggest, most radical events in the U.S. in the past 40 years at least. The world sees that. This would not have happened if it involved only the people who agreed with you. It just wouldn't"

[Bruce Dazzling]

"Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the cross-hairs, and take them down."

[psynapz]

seeing so called pacifists physically attack BB members for breaking a window is the height of irony.

anarchists do many things to organize communities and BB members or their friends are not going to just out themselves and admit to being a part of it, that's the whole point of an anonymous BB. this can be infiltrated definitely, but i have friends who have spent over half a year in jail for smashing a police car windshield, and they are definitely NOT a police officer.

i personally think many in the BB realize the insanity and violence of the current system, and are willing to put themselves on the line to challenge it by any means necessary.

Hi illogik, you should post more! Thanks for bringing this up.

It would seem to me that every minute a demonstration spends defending themselves against police state action is a minute they aren't spending actually improving a goddamn thing anywhere, so it would seem to me that any action which gives the cops a valid reason for a violent crackdown (read: "disruption of productive civic activity") and gives the media a valid reason for negative framing, is an action which actively subverts and harms the movement.

The point of Occupy isn't to actually impale the severed heads of bankers on spikes, or physically demolish their places of business, that's vengeance, not justice. It's also pointless because there will always be more eager sociopaths ready to step over the headless carcasses of said banksters to take their plush leather chairs, and they employ live off-site backup data centers which can scramble into production deployment as the primary operations centers on a moment's notice, say in the event of an end-of-Fight-Club scenario where they make that decision to pull, and we watch the buildings collapse.

And speaking of Silverstein, it's worth also noting that the financial damage that is caused by destructive vandalism isn't actually money taken out of the pockets of banksters which would otherwise go towards buying government or otherwise screwing us somewhere, it's just a temporary setback until their insurance settlements arrive, and we all learned from 9/11 what happens when all the big insurance companies have to pay out jackpots all at once -- they turn to the re-insurance companies who in turn raise their rates to compensate, which is passed on down to us as the customers of their customers in the form of jacked premiums, which we've all had to deal with since 9/11.

The movement's non-violence even in the face of violence is itself a poignant and unmistakable demonstration against the automatic and repressive state violence with which it's met, thus exposing with crystal clarity to all spectators and news junkies exactly who the armed jackboots are actually working for.

We must be careful not to become that which we abhor.

Saying that "not all Black Bloc are agent provocateurs" is kind of pointless because this is the primary method by which the cops cross the "line of skirmish" and open a pressure valve they can do something about, rather than just stand around like assholes like they do the rest of the time. BB's have been caught time and time again inciting the police into crackdown mode, only to be pulled back to safety on the police side. In Toronto they didn't even bother to change out of their fucking cop boots first, for fucks sake.

There are non-violent ways of undermining a movement, but the violent ways are easier to spot, easier to thwart, and much harder to PR your way out of any negative framing by a hostile media and hostile local authority. That's why they must be stopped.

[Hammer of Los]

What's happening in Oakland is beyond awful. It moves me to tears.

It is turning into warfare.

When that happens they have won. The Controllers, those lot, the poor misguided awful hopeless few, the 0.0001%, less, less than that, those who really do control the enormous armed resources of the Western hemisphere. Here's a clue. They speak English, a certain kind.

But even they are not your enemy. Will them no harm.

But the policeman, or the soldier, they must be your friend. It is our only hope. Can't you see? Once they begin to refuse to use awful force on their peaceful fellow man, peacefully seeking redress of dire grievances, grievances in which the policeman and soldier share, the loss of their jobs, the loss of their pensions, of public services and so on, we have won. You need the policeman, you need the soldier, on your side.

If you will none harm, then your intentions are good and miracles can happen.

Amidst the whirl and fury all is lost.

Reach out to everyone.

Reach out to the police.

You must be vulnerable. Bare your breast, get rid of the emotional armouring, look at yourself first and foremost, be humble and kind. And forgive. Yourself and others. Look for love. You will find it.

Are you afraid?

I am.

Terribly.

But the internet connects us all. A greater miracle has never existed before. A hope is placed before us, of new ways of human organisation, a new organism is being born.

Those with the right eyes and ears are being positively blinded and deafened right now, I suspect.

Holy mother of God, for some reason I have an almost irresistible desire to shout "Rejoice, the time is indeed at hand!"

I think my religious fantasies are really taking over at this point.

Now, where did I put that red dress?

[Bruce Dazzling]

seeing so called pacifists physically attack BB members for breaking a window is the height of irony.

anarchists do many things to organize communities and BB members or their friends are not going to just out themselves and admit to being a part of it, that's the whole point of an anonymous BB. this can be infiltrated definitely, but i have friends who have spent over half a year in jail for smashing a police car windshield, and they are definitely NOT a police officer.

i personally think many in the BB realize the insanity and violence of the current system, and are willing to put themselves on the line to challenge it by any means necessary.

Hi illogik, you should post more! Thanks for bringing this up.

It would seem to me that every minute a demonstration spends defending themselves against police state action is a minute they aren't spending actually improving a goddamn thing anywhere, so it would seem to me that any action which gives the cops a valid reason for a violent crackdown (read: "disruption of productive civic activity") and gives the media a valid reason for negative framing, is an action which actively subverts and harms the movement.

The point of Occupy isn't to actually impale the severed heads of bankers on spikes, or physically demolish their places of business, that's vengeance, not justice. It's also pointless because there will always be more eager sociopaths ready to step over the headless carcasses of said banksters to take their plush leather chairs, and they employ live off-site backup data centers which can scramble into production deployment as the primary operations centers on a moment's notice, say in the event of an end-of-Fight-Club scenario where they make that decision to pull, and we watch the buildings collapse.

And speaking of Silverstein, it's worth also noting that the financial damage that is caused by destructive vandalism isn't actually money taken out of the pockets of banksters which would otherwise go towards buying government or otherwise screwing us somewhere, it's just a temporary setback until their insurance settlements arrive, and we all learned from 9/11 what happens when all the big insurance companies have to pay out jackpots all at once -- they turn to the re-insurance companies who in turn raise their rates to compensate, which is passed on down to us as the customers of their customers in the form of jacked premiums, which we've all had to deal with since 9/11.

The movement's non-violence even in the face of violence is itself a poignant and unmistakable demonstration against the automatic and repressive state violence with which it's met, thus exposing with crystal clarity to all spectators and news junkies exactly who the armed jackboots are actually working for.

We must be careful not to become that which we abhor.

Saying that "not all Black Bloc are agent provocateurs" is kind of pointless because this is the primary method by which the cops cross the "line of skirmish" and open a pressure valve they can do something about, rather than just stand around like assholes like they do the rest of the time. BB's have been caught time and time again inciting the police into crackdown mode, only to be pulled back to safety on the police side. In Toronto they didn't even bother to change out of their fucking cop boots first, for fucks sake.

There are non-violent ways of undermining a movement, but the violent ways are easier to spot, easier to thwart, and much harder to PR your way out of any negative framing by a hostile media and hostile local authority. That's why they must be stopped.

I started typing a response to illogik, but then I saw this and realized there was no need.

Very well said, psynapz.

[Jeff]

Am I wrong to think that, outside of North America, pacifists and militants have a much easier time co-existing in a mass movement? Is that because here, protests have - for a long while, and maybe until now - been generally led by liberals, rather than the left? This creates a clash of values, such as property rights vs human rights. (And I'm not condoning it, but all the violence I've seen documented from protesters has been upon property.)

In Oakland, a window breaks and it's shamed the entire action, and an apology and a distancing is expected from all. The same isn't demanded of a police force when a skull is cracked, though much more should be.

[illogik]

thanks psynapz, i should, but touring leaves little time to properly get into the topics.

The point of Occupy isn't to actually impale the severed heads of bankers on spikes, or physically demolish their places of business, that's vengeance, not justice. It's also pointless because there will always be more eager sociopaths ready to step over the headless carcasses of said banksters to take their plush leather chairs, and they employ live off-site backup data centers which can scramble into production deployment as the primary operations centers on a moment's notice, say in the event of an end-of-Fight-Club scenario where they make that decision to pull, and we watch the buildings collapse.

the point of occupy....well that's kinda of the point, that there is no one point, it's in how we organize ourselves non hierarchically to come up with a new way to meet the needs and challenge those in power who are killing our planet. that's how i see it, but i'm sure every person who is there has their own perspective on what it's point is. it is about listening though, and why i am not quick to endorse the BB tactics used at this demo. i do think however that we are so brutally conditioned by this system of control and violence to see property destruction as violence, while the status quo and the violence inflicted on the world daily is accepted as the norm. when violence flows down the pyramid it's a normal day, when it goes back up, even just against the elites property, it is scorned by not only the establishment, but the liberal apologists who believe in reforming a twisted system.

i think tactically it has been very useful for OWS not to use "violence" (property re arrangement), as it has now appealed to a wide group of mainstream liberals who are frightened by that kind of tactic. i think as the stakes are raised it will become inevitable that more radical tactics will be employed, such as in greece at some point a confrontation will take place.

i mean do we think that the banksters will just step down? or some mild reform will fix the problem? these are sociopaths, they need to be stopped. i don't know how that will look, but i know they won't just step aside, and i know the politicians are their lackeys and will never stop them from putting forth their twisted agenda of world dominance.

BB's have been caught time and time again inciting the police into crackdown mode, only to be pulled back to safety on the police side. In Toronto they didn't even bother to change out of their fucking cop boots first, for fucks sake.

sometimes. other times they have created amazing spaces where the liberal march in a circle did nothing. i was in the streets of toronto, i was arrested and sent through torontonamo prison, treated horribly for 3 days by sociopaths. i also saw the BB in the streets along with thousands more non-blocked people taking part in attacking the financial centers of canada. to say because they had some black boots which you can get at any military surplus store and therefore they all had to be cops, is ridiculous. that doesn't mean i don't think the police used it as an excuse to attack the peaceful protestors, i'm just sick of narrative that all riots are conspiracies of TPTB. they are not all powerful, and the people are able to rise up and create spaces where they wrest control away from the power structure. out here in europe there is a long long history of it, but the NAmerican centric belief in "non violence" means most cannot conceptualize what a revolution looks like. the friggin boston tea party was one of the best examples of property destruction used to further a cause, it exposes the power and shows their weakness.

What's happening in Oakland is beyond awful. It moves me to tears.

It is turning into warfare.

When that happens they have won. The Controllers, those lot, the poor misguided awful hopeless few, the 0.0001%, less, less than that, those who really do control the enormous armed resources of the Western hemisphere. Here's a clue. They speak English, a certain kind.

But even they are not your enemy. Will them no harm.

But the policeman, or the soldier, they must be your friend. It is our only hope. Can't you see? Once they begin to refuse to use awful force on their peaceful fellow man, peacefully seeking redress of dire grievances, grievances in which the policeman and soldier share, the loss of their jobs, the loss of their pensions, of public services and so on, we have won. You need the policeman, you need the soldier, on your side.

If you will none harm, then your intentions are good and miracles can happen.

Amidst the whirl and fury all is lost.

Reach out to everyone.

Reach out to the police.

You must be vulnerable. Bare your breast, get rid of the emotional armouring, look at yourself first and foremost, be humble and kind. And forgive. Yourself and others. Look for love. You will find it.

Are you afraid?

I am.

Terribly.

But the internet connects us all. A greater miracle has never existed before. A hope is placed before us, of new ways of human organisation, a new organism is being born.

Those with the right eyes and ears are being positively blinded and deafened right now, I suspect.

Holy mother of God, for some reason I have an almost irresistible desire to shout "Rejoice, the time is indeed at hand!"

I think my religious fantasies are really taking over at this point.

Now, where did I put that red dress?

the thing is, it has been warfare for a long time, it's just the white american middle class that has had the privilege not to see it that is disappearing. it's warfare in iraq, afghanistan, columbia, any prison in america, the reservations of first nations, the slums of any big city, in the starving bellies of the majority. it has been a war for a very long time now, the liberal americans are just getting a small taste of it and it frightens them. with good reason, no doubt. they have nuclear bombs, armies of soldiers and police trained to kill and maim those against them.

i totally agree to reaching out the police, humanizing them and reaching out. i'm under no illusions to their function in society however. many believe the police are there to protect and serve the community. this has never been the case. the police were brought into existence to protect the rich and their property from the great unwashed masses, and nothing has really changed. the PR is better, but their function is the same. cops everywhere, justice nowhere.

Am I wrong to think that, outside of North America, pacifists and militants have a much easier time co-existing in a mass movement? Is that because here, protests have - for a long while, and maybe until now - been generally led by liberals, rather than the left? This creates a clash of values, such as property rights vs human rights. (And I'm not condoning it, but all the violence I've seen documented from protesters has been upon property.)

In Oakland, a window breaks and it's shamed the entire action, and an apology and a distancing is expected from all. The same isn't demanded of a police force when a skull is cracked, though much more should be.

thanks jeff, you are right in that other parts of the world there is a much longer history of militant actions, and support from the more liberal classes

now i must add i say all this to bring some balance to the discussion. since a life changing experience with the ayahuasqueros in the peruvian amazon i've realized the spiritual evolution is an incredible part of our changing this system. i think that is lacking in many anarchist circles, and i hope to see that change (and try to help it do so everywhere i go). i similarly see the pacifist and spiritual side needs to see the realities of the violence we are all complacent in, and see that defending our planet against violent sociopaths sometimes gets messy and requires direct action to stop it. and instead of trying to demonize people who's tactics you may not agree with (who probably have the same or almost the same goals as you), put your energy on that 1%. dividing ourselves only helps them.

you don't like a broken window, i don't like a broken world, i know what i'll spend my energy trying to change.

namaste people!

[vanlose kid]

*

re Black Bloc and tactics.

the man who told the lovers to turn the other cheek threw the moneychangers from the temple. did he not heed his own words?

*

[vanlose kid]

Am I wrong to think that, outside of North America, pacifists and militants have a much easier time co-existing in a mass movement? Is that because here, protests have - for a long while, and maybe until now - been generally led by liberals, rather than the left? This creates a clash of values, such as property rights vs human rights. (And I'm not condoning it, but all the violence I've seen documented from protesters has been upon property.)

In Oakland, a window breaks and it's shamed the entire action, and an apology and a distancing is expected from all. The same isn't demanded of a police force when a skull is cracked, though much more should be.

it's kind of difficult to hold, the absolutist pacifist view.
you'd have to believe that taking up arms against your oppressor is immoral.

conundrum.

*

[psynapz]

to say because they had some black boots which you can get at any military surplus store and therefore they all had to be cops, is ridiculous. that doesn't mean i don't think the police used it as an excuse to attack the peaceful protestors, i'm just sick of narrative that all riots are conspiracies of TPTB.

Dude:

Of course you're right about generalizations, but in this particular example of which we speak, it happens to be a fact.

[illogik]

but that isn't toronto....

[Jeff]

I was very interested seeing how this story - Oakland developer Phil Tagami keeps protesters at bay -- with a shotgun - was reported and received on Democratic Underground.

First, the cue tagged to the original post: "Tagami is a major Democratic power broker in California." Meaning, check your incipient, 99% class consciousness at the door; this guy's one of us. Then, how quickly the defense of nonviolent methods turned to fantasies of violence visited upon the protesters. ("Frankly I wouldn't mind if these provocateurs get shot by citizens protecting their property"; "if they did that to my house, they would be getting sponged off the pavement.")

I don't condone eight people smashing their way into Tagami's Rotunda Building, but there's something discordant and tragically liberal about that reaction.

This image of vandalism went around the world a few weeks ago, to great approval:



John Paulson destroyed the quality of life for millions and reaped billions in rewards by peddling subprime mortgages to the vulnerable and then betting against them. I wouldn't condone a brigade of the homeless smashing their way into Paulson's bedroom and posing for pictures atop his duvet, but neither would I feel compelled to apologize on their behalf.

[barracuda]

The passive willingness to have violence visited upon oneself in the fight against tyranny is in itself a form of violence, the symbiotic obverse relationship. The function of civil resistance is provocation, which is by nature an aggression.

Everyone who's interested knows that the basic, founding principles of this country compel the citizens by duty to alter or abolish any government which is destructive of their human rights. There is nothing inherently peaceful about abolishing your government. We are at the caboose of the long train of abuses here.

Some people cannot condone the breaking of a window. Take the argument to a different setting: if you could, would you destroy the firing pin of a gun pointed at your head? The windows of the banks are pieces of the machinery that is killing the planet.