The Hugh Manatee Challenge

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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby Sounder » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:24 pm

We are cross posting here, but anyway the reference is to the language programing DNA thread.

The first response was rushed and probably flippant and you deserve better slomo, so here is another try.

Please explain.

How bout, behaviorism works as long as you are willing to work with it. Hell I don’t know, ask Hugh.

If I had read your syncro reference before I posted that bit, it would have been totally different. Now if we can just hijack more ‘Hugh’ threads toward woo territory, then we will really be cracking. But seriously, KWH would seem to be naturally both threatened by and threatening towards notions of any kind of subtle or background field that affects the general shape of appearances within reality. I am tired of playing the game on Hugh’s turf.

Slomo wrote…
More simply, to what extent does WOO serve or oppose the goals of MIC, Big Pharma, and Big Agra? Or is it wholly irrelevant, and those of us who take it seriously are just fools?


Only by happenstance, Hugh is correct that most WOO supports the baddies, but only because any category has both a positive and a negative polarity with the negative currently dominating because we have no framework to build upon with our fragmented impressions of wonderment.

They play three-D chess while we play checkers.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby Plutonia » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:43 pm

I wonder if I'm the only one who noticed this from Gnomad the other day - posted in the top Scifi fiction thread:

Gnomad wrote:Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babel-17

Babel-17 is a 1966 science fiction novel by American writer Samuel R. Delany in which the Sapir–Whorf Hypothesis (that language strongly influences thought and perceived reality) plays an important part. It was joint winner of the Nebula Award for Best Novel in 1966 (with Flowers for Algernon)[1] and was also nominated for the Hugo Award for Best Novel in 1967.[2]

During an interstellar war one side develops a language, Babel-17, that can be used as a weapon. Learning it turns one into an unwilling traitor as it alters perception and thought. The change is made more dangerous by the language's seductive enhancement of other abilities. This is discovered by the beautiful starship captain, linguist, poet, and telepath Rydra Wong. She is recruited by her government to discover how the enemy are infiltrating and sabotaging strategic sites. Initially Babel-17 is thought to be a code used by enemy agents. Rydra Wong realizes it is a language, and finds herself becoming a traitor as she learns it. She is rescued by her dedicated crew, figures out the danger, and neutralizes its effects.

The novel deals with several issues related to the peculiarities of language, how conditions of life shape the formation of words and meaning, and how the words themselves can shape the actions of people.

[edit]


viewtopic.php?p=439126#p439126


That ^^^ seems like a sexed-up version of Hugh's KWHJ theory to me.


Sapir-Whorf hypothesis

The linguistic theory that the semantic structure of a language shapes or limits the ways in which a speaker forms conceptions of the world.

[...]

Sapir on Language and Social Reality
"Human beings do not live in the objective world alone, nor alone in the world of social activity as ordinarily understood, but are very much at the mercy of the particular language which has become the medium of expression for their society. It is quite an illusion to imagine that one adjusts to reality essentially without the use of language and that language is merely an incidental means of solving specific problems of communication or reflection. The fact of the matter is that the ‘real world' is to a large extent unconsciously built up on the language habits of the group. No two languages are ever sufficiently similar to be considered as representing the same social reality."
(Edward Sapir, "The Status of Linguistics as a Science," 1929)


Whorf on the Organizing Force of Language
"[T]he world is presented in a kaleidoscopic flux of impressions which has to be organized by our minds--and this means largely by the linguistic systems in our minds. We cut nature up, organize it into concepts, and ascribe significances as we do, largely because we are parties to an agreement to organize it in this way--an agreement that holds throughout our speech community and is codified in the patterns of our language. The agreement is, of course, an implicit and unstated one, but its terms are absolutely obligatory; we cannot talk at all except by subscribing to the organization and classification of data which the agreement decrees."
(Benjamin Whorf, "Science and Linguistics," 1956)

[...]

http://grammar.about.com/od/rs/g/SapirWhorf.htm


AKA theory of linguistic relativity, linguistic relativism, linguistic determinism, Whorfian hypothesis, Whorfianism, Neo-Whorfianism, a subset of psycholinguistics.

And here's some science for slomo (actually I've seen it before so maybe it's been posted at RI in the past?) - start at the third paragraph:

Neuroscientific Evidence for the Influence of Language on Color Perception

Category: Cognitive Neuroscience • Cognitive Psychology
Posted on: March 20, 2008 4:03 PM, by Chris

You know, just the other day, on this very blog, I swore I would never read another (cognitive) imaging paper again, but between then and now, I've read 5 of 6, so apparently my oath didn't take. It's sort of like my constantly telling myself, as I ride the bus to campus in the morning, that I'm going to stop drinking coffee. As soon as I get off the bus, I walk 30 or so feet to the little coffee stand where they have my 16 oz. coffee waiting for me, 'cause they know as well as I do that I ain't quittin'. Cognitive neuroscience is like coffee.

Anyway, one of the imaging papers I've read since swearing off cognitive neuroscience altogether was published just last week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS, pronounced like... well, you can guess what it's pronounced like), and is an imaging study on linguistic relativity. For blogging purposes, such a paper is doubly awesome, because it gives me an opportunity to blog about wo of my favorite topics: 1.) The influence of language on thought and perception, and 2.) How much cognitive neuroscience sucks. And I can do both by presenting previous studies in contrast to last week's PNAS (pronounce it as you read, it makes this post funnier) paper. So I'll start with research published way back in the year 2006.

I've written a lot about linguistic relativity (a soft version of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis) in the past (see here, here, and here), so I won't go into it in too much detail here. For now it will do simply to say that linguistic relativity has been a hot topic off and on since the first half of the 20th century, and each time it's become hot again, one of the main focuses has been on the influence of language on color perception. If you can show the influence of language on, say, temporal reasoning, that's interesting, but it's conceptual, and we know that words and concepts are pretty intertwined. However, if you can show that language influences low-level perception, like color perception, then you will have demonstrated something exciting. In the 1960s, there was a bunch of research suggesting that color words do influence color perception, but in the late 60s and early 70s, further research suggested this was not the case. Then, in the 2000s, researchers revisited the question, and again found evidence that color words influence color perception in a variety of different tasks.

At this point, at least until another Eleanor Rosch comes around, the evidence for some sort of interaction between language and color perception is pretty strong. The main problem in interpreting this evidence, and most of the evidence related to linguistic relativity more generally, is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to tease apart linguistic and cultural influences. The key to doing so would be to make some sort of prediction about the interaction of color terms and color perception that relies on our knowledge of the unique properties of language processing. If you can provide support for predictions like that, then you can make a pretty good case that the influence of language is direct, rather than mediated by cultural differences that are correlated with linguistic differences.

This brings us to the neuroscience. The one part of the brain that we know a whole hell of a lot about is the visual system, and the early visual system in particular. Neuroscientists can basically tell you exactly what happens to visual information from the time a photon hits a photoreceptor in the back of the retina to the time it reaches the visual cortex, and beyond (notable exceptions are the amacrine cells, the functions of which are a bit of a mystery). For example we know that information from the retina of the right eye crosses over to the left side of the brain at the optic chiasm, and then travels to the left hemisphere of the visual system. The information from the left eye goes in the opposite direction.

Image

When it comes to things outside of the visual system, we know considerably less. However, if there's one area that we know more than a little bit about, it's language processing. Most importantly, for our purposes, we know that for right-handers, the left hemisphere is doing the bulk of the language processing work. Knowing this, combined with our knowledge of where visual information from each eye gets processed, we can make a prediction about how language will affect perception. That is, we can predict that, because information from the right eye ends up being processed on the left side of the brain, and language is, for the most part, processed on the left side, we should see stronger effects of language on perception for information that comes in through the right eye. And over the last couple years, a series of papers have been published presenting studies that test this prediction.

The first paper, by Gilbert et al.(1) used a simple visual search paradigm. This involves putting a target stimulus in an array with a bunch of distractors. In this case, the targets were squares of a particular color, and the distractors were squares of a different color. In some cases, the distractors and target shared the same color label (e.g., "blue"), while in others they had different labels (e.g., "blue" and "green"). Research in a bunch of different domains have shown that it's easier to discriminate members of different categories than members of the same category, even when the perceptual distance between the two is the same, a phenomenon usually called categorical perception. In this case, it should be easier to discriminate "blue" from "green" than "blue" from "blue," even when the difference between the shades of blue is the same as the difference between the "blue" and "green" shades. Previous research using the visual search paradigm has shown that people are faster at finding targets among perceptually similar targets when they're from a different color category than when they're from the same color category(2). The twist in Gilbert et al.'s study is that half the time, the target appeared in the right visual field (i.e., appeared to the right eye), and half the time it appeared in the left. If the labels really are affecting color perception, then we'd expect to find the categorical perception effect much more strongly for targets presented in the right visual field than those presented in the left.

Of course, that's what they found. Participants' reaction times were significantly faster for between-category target-distractor searches than for within-category searches when the targets were in the right visual field, but there was no difference between between and within-category searches for targets presented in the left visual field.

In their second study, Gilbert et al. gave participants a verbal interference task (silently repeating an eight-digit number), and the effect for the right visual field reversed: between-category searches took longer than within-category searches. The opposite was the case for the left visual field (though the difference between within and between-category searches was not significant in the left visual field). This suggests that it really is the category label that is causing the categorical perception effect, because the verbal interference task does just what it says: it interferes with language processing. Since this processing takes place primarily in the left hemisphere, it should only affect targets presented to the right eye, as it did Gilbert et al.'s study.

Similar studies by Drivonikou et al.(3), one using a visual search task with more color categories and more distractors, and one asking participants to indicate whether a colored dot is different from a colored background, showed the same effects with more color categories and, in the visual search task, more distractors. Below is a graph from one of their studies (from their Figure 2, p. 1099), which clearly illustrates the effect of visual field (RVF = right visual field, LVF = left visual field).

Image

In perhaps the coolest of the papers in this line of research, Gilbert et al.(4) conducted another visual search task, but this time they used non-color categories, like animals (e.g., dogs and cats). In this case, there'd be a bunch of cats in a circle, and one dog (see below, from their Figure 2, p. 3), and the task is to indicate which side of the circle the dog is on. As in the previous studies, the dog was either in the right or left visual field, and we would expect that the effect of label (i.e., the faster times for between-category searches) would be stronger in the right visual field than the left.

Image

As in the color perception studies, the categorical perception effect was significantly stronger in the right visual field than in the left, and it disappeared when participants were given a verbal interference task.

Now, for me, those studies are pretty convincing. In each case, the effect was stronger when perceptual processing took place in the same hemisphere where language is processed, and the effects disappeared when you interfered with language processing. That seems like pretty direct evidence that language is influence categorical perception in color and other domains. But why be satisfied with convincing evidence when you've got an fMRI machine and twenty thousand dollars, right? Enter Tan et al.(5)

Tan et al.'s task was much simpler than in the Gilbert et al. and Drivonikou et al. studies. All their participants had to do was decide whether two color squares were of the same or different colors. Granted, the squares were only presented for 100 ms, but still. They used colors with six different names in Mandarin, three of which were easy to name, and three of which were difficult to name (based on data from a pilot study). Given that the colors were only presented for a brief moment, the effects of language should only show up for the easily (i.e., quickly) accessed color labels.

Now, they didn't find any behavioral differences between the easy and hard to name conditions. That is, people were equally fast at naming the colors in both conditions. But they did find differences in brain activation. Both conditions produced activation in areas associated with color vision (medial frontal gyrus, mid-inferior prefrontal cortex, insula, right superior temporal cortex, thalamus, and cerebellum. The left superior temporal gyrus, left precuneus, and left postcentrual gyrus, all areas associated with language processing, showed more activation in the easy name condition than in the hard name condition.

Aside from pretty pictures of the brain, what has the Tan et al. study taught us that the previous studies hadn't? Well, considering the fact that there were no behavioral differences observed, it's hard to know exactly what was going on, but at most, all these data suggest is that when presented quickly, easy-to-name colors prime their labels, while hard-to-name colors do not. Not only is this not interesting in itself, but in the context of linguistic relativity, it doesn't even suggest the right direction of influence. That is, without behavioral differences, the imaging data doesn't suggest that language processing is influencing perception, but instead that the perception is priming particular lexical items. That's just, well, boring. I mean, duh. But again, cool brain pictures. Coffee.

Are you starting to see why I find cognitive neuroscience so frustrating? The first series of studies -- those by Gilbert et al. and Drivonikou et al. -- are excellent lessons in using neuroscience to test hypotheses. They took things we know about the brain (things we knew about the brain long before imaging technology existed), came up with hypotheses based on them, and then developed behavioral predictions from those hypotheses. The Tan et al. study, on the other hand, doesn't really test any hypothesis directly relevant to linguistic relativity. We can't, from their data, make any behavioral predictions, and we can't infer that the increased processing in language areas of the brain that they observed had any influence on the processing in the visual areas that were active. And I guarantee you that the Tan et al. study cost more. In all likelihood, the single study in Tan et al. cost more than the eight studies presented in the other three papers combined! A simple cost benefit analysis of the Tan et al. study therefore gives us a ratio of 0: costs a bunch, and we've learned jack.

I'm never reading another imaging study again, or drinking anymore coffee.

1Gilbert, A.L., Regier, T., Kay, P., Ivry, R.B. (2006) Whorf hypothesis is supported in the right visual field but not the left. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 103(2), 489-494.
2Roberson, D. & Davidoff, J. (2000) The categorical perception of colours and facial expressions: The effect of verbal interference. Memory & Cognition, 28, 977-986.
3Further evidence that Whorfian effects are stronger in the right visual field than the left. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 104(3), 1097-1102.
4Gilbert, A.L., Regierd, T., Kaye, P., & Irvy, R.B. (In Press). Support for lateralization of the Whorf effect beyond the realm of color discrimination. Brain and Behavior.
5Tan, L.H., Chan, A.H.D., Khong, P.L., Yip, L.K.C., & Luke, K.K. (2008). Language affects patterns of brain activation associated with perceptual decision. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 105(10), 4004-4009.

http://scienceblogs.com/mixingmemory/20 ... _for_t.php


Also, the expensive imaging study the author cites last, the one that seems to contradict the positive results of the previous two studies, is a detail that for paranoiacs could suggest a covert strategy to derail/discredit/stall-out investigation into this phenomenon. :moresarcasm
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby professorpan » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:52 pm

Nordic wrote:BTW we've already lost one wonderful member of this community over this, someone whp PM'ed me to say that HMW's bullshit was more than they could stand, that the inexplicable tolerance of his disruption was too much, and that they were taking a break. They might be back, they might not.

Yet we're still stuck with HMW?

Hugh needs to go start his own forum rather than ruining this one


Wow—I feel like I've traveled back in time!

People are still trying to issue challenges to Hugh? Been there, done that, years (!) ago. But here's a word of warning to those who weren't around then—you might as well issue a challenge to a hunk of granite.

Hugh's not the only reason I quit being a regular participant, but he was certainly part of it.

But I still admire and appreciate Jeff and his sharp mind and eloquent voice. This place has really drawn some great minds and noble souls. I just can't wade through the mire and the inane verbal pollution spewed by certifiable paranoid schizophrenics anymore, or have someone lambast me as a "spook" because I don't buy into their pet theory. Life is too short.

Best wishes to all, and a very happy new year!
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:08 pm

Plutonia's ability to redeem threads like a rock star is unparalleled.
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby slomo » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:16 pm

Plutonia wrote:I wonder if I'm the only one who noticed this from Gnomad the other day - posted in the top Scifi fiction thread:

Gnomad wrote:Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babel-17

Babel-17 is a 1966 science fiction novel by American writer Samuel R. Delany in which the Sapir–Whorf Hypothesis (that language strongly influences thought and perceived reality) plays an important part. It was joint winner of the Nebula Award for Best Novel in 1966 (with Flowers for Algernon)[1] and was also nominated for the Hugo Award for Best Novel in 1967.[2]

During an interstellar war one side develops a language, Babel-17, that can be used as a weapon. Learning it turns one into an unwilling traitor as it alters perception and thought. The change is made more dangerous by the language's seductive enhancement of other abilities. This is discovered by the beautiful starship captain, linguist, poet, and telepath Rydra Wong. She is recruited by her government to discover how the enemy are infiltrating and sabotaging strategic sites. Initially Babel-17 is thought to be a code used by enemy agents. Rydra Wong realizes it is a language, and finds herself becoming a traitor as she learns it. She is rescued by her dedicated crew, figures out the danger, and neutralizes its effects.

The novel deals with several issues related to the peculiarities of language, how conditions of life shape the formation of words and meaning, and how the words themselves can shape the actions of people.

[edit]


viewtopic.php?p=439126#p439126


That ^^^ seems like a sexed-up version of Hugh's KWHJ theory to me.


Sapir-Whorf hypothesis

The linguistic theory that the semantic structure of a language shapes or limits the ways in which a speaker forms conceptions of the world.

[...]

Sapir on Language and Social Reality
"Human beings do not live in the objective world alone, nor alone in the world of social activity as ordinarily understood, but are very much at the mercy of the particular language which has become the medium of expression for their society. It is quite an illusion to imagine that one adjusts to reality essentially without the use of language and that language is merely an incidental means of solving specific problems of communication or reflection. The fact of the matter is that the ‘real world' is to a large extent unconsciously built up on the language habits of the group. No two languages are ever sufficiently similar to be considered as representing the same social reality."
(Edward Sapir, "The Status of Linguistics as a Science," 1929)


Whorf on the Organizing Force of Language
"[T]he world is presented in a kaleidoscopic flux of impressions which has to be organized by our minds--and this means largely by the linguistic systems in our minds. We cut nature up, organize it into concepts, and ascribe significances as we do, largely because we are parties to an agreement to organize it in this way--an agreement that holds throughout our speech community and is codified in the patterns of our language. The agreement is, of course, an implicit and unstated one, but its terms are absolutely obligatory; we cannot talk at all except by subscribing to the organization and classification of data which the agreement decrees."
(Benjamin Whorf, "Science and Linguistics," 1956)

[...]

http://grammar.about.com/od/rs/g/SapirWhorf.htm


AKA theory of linguistic relativity, linguistic relativism, linguistic determinism, Whorfian hypothesis, Whorfianism, Neo-Whorfianism, a subset of psycholinguistics.

And here's some science for slomo (actually I've seen it before so maybe it's been posted at RI in the past?) - start at the third paragraph:

Neuroscientific Evidence for the Influence of Language on Color Perception


The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is soundly rejected in its strong form, which dictates that a particular language obliges you to see the world a certain way. However, a weaker version is undergoing a renaissance. In this version, a particular language habituates you to see the world a certain way, which in turn reinforces certain neural pathways to the exclusion of others. For example, if your language obliges you to specify gender, than it will habituate your mind to perceive gender cues across the board. If your language obliges you to specify timing (as does English and other European languages), then you will habitually attend to the sequence of events. More exotically, if your language obliges you to specify direction in absolute terms (north/south/east/west) rather than relative terms (left/right) - some languages do this - then you will habitually attend to minute environmental cues that would reveal absolute direction. And encouragingly for humankind, some languages oblige you to reveal the basis on which you make a claim (by direct witness, from another person, by inference, etc.) so that you are habituated to attend to epistemological issues, hopefully in service to the Truth.

A language does not prevent comprehension of concepts outside the typical focus of that language, but it does habituate you to ignoring them to the point that they register only with noticeable cognitive effort.

This is a really interesting New York Times article on the subject.

With this in mind, the weak assertion that alphabet agencies would shape public opinion and cognition by influencing the aesthetics of big media events is not only plausible, but likely, in a rather mechanistic behavioral sense. However, the injection of minor and irrelevant key phrases and puns has no effect on this process, and so something more is needed to explain how KWHJ can possibly be a meaningfully rewarding activity on the part of government (or corporate) agencies. It would be difficult to see how that "something" could be anything mechanistic from a behavioral science point of view, but there are certain theories of magick where a mechanism could be posited.

Again, to be clear, I don't believe in KWHJ, but I'm willing to entertain what the mechanism would be, if it were a real phenomenon.
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby slomo » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:28 pm

Sounder wrote:We are cross posting here, but anyway the reference is to the language programing DNA thread.

The first response was rushed and probably flippant and you deserve better slomo, so here is another try.

Please explain.

How bout, behaviorism works as long as you are willing to work with it. Hell I don’t know, ask Hugh.

If I had read your syncro reference before I posted that bit, it would have been totally different. Now if we can just hijack more ‘Hugh’ threads toward woo territory, then we will really be cracking. But seriously, KWH would seem to be naturally both threatened by and threatening towards notions of any kind of subtle or background field that affects the general shape of appearances within reality. I am tired of playing the game on Hugh’s turf.

Slomo wrote…
More simply, to what extent does WOO serve or oppose the goals of MIC, Big Pharma, and Big Agra? Or is it wholly irrelevant, and those of us who take it seriously are just fools?


Only by happenstance, Hugh is correct that most WOO supports the baddies, but only because any category has both a positive and a negative polarity with the negative currently dominating because we have no framework to build upon with our fragmented impressions of wonderment.

They play three-D chess while we play checkers.

I haven't checked into the DNA programming thread lately, because I have relatively intimate knowledge of DNA biochemistry and biology (relative to most vocal members of this board) and doubt that our current theoretical models for DNA could support anything like the phenomenon described. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, merely that I am suspicious of any such claim made at this point in time from within conventional science.

Re: 3D chess.... Yes, which is why I think it's worth learning the rules of 3D chess even though we're told that checkers is the only game in town.
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby Plutonia » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:52 pm

slomo wrote:A language does not prevent comprehension of concepts outside the typical focus of that language, but it does habituate you to ignoring them to the point that they register only with noticeable cognitive effort.


Maybe that's enough, slomo.

Or maybe it's enough as just one of a complex of interventions, like ubiquitous abuse, infantilization, institutional schooling, distraction, disinfo, spin etc.

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Plutonia's ability to redeem threads like a rock star is unparalleled.

I think rock stars are over-rated but I get the sentiment - so thanks Wombat! :tiphat:
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby DrVolin » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:03 pm

Laugh-in is an interesting data point and in some ways illustrates the difficulty of taking up this challenge. Even if a strong correlation is found between elements of films advertised two years ahead and significant events down the road, there will remain the matter of explaining that correlation.

In the late 60s or early 70s, Laugh-in joked about a Reagan presidency. But so did lots of other people, including Mad Magazine. Obviously, there was a widespread feeling that the possibility was both real enough to be informative about what was happening in American politics, and weird enough to qualify as funny. By the early 70s, it was no secret that Reagan had higher political ambitions, and that he had the name recognition (as a former Hollywood star) and the executive experience (as former governor of California) to be competitive as a presidential candidate. At the same time, the idea of an actor as president struck many as both surprising and very telling. They wouldn't have expected it just ten years earlier, but now, given the evolving nature of the presidency, it made a certain sense, sadly.

This 1973 roast of Reagan by Don Rickles: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=943_1296834187

hits many of the points I discuss above, and interpreting it in the contex of this thread and RI in general is an interesting experience. Were Laugh-in, Mad Magazine, and Dean Martin's roasts tightly controlled to generate certain broad political outcomes, using various propaganda techinques? Or were they reflections of the zeitgeist that many intelligent and articulate people expressed spontaneously, a sort of incipient political and cultural analysis that accurately extrapolated trends of which people were barely aware? Is there a positive feedback between the two? How do we tell the difference?

Even in the presence of documents establishing that agents of an alphabet agency scripted these events with the intent of making Reagan president as part of a larger plan, how would we know whether they were driving events, or whether they were shaping their plans in response to existing and percieved conditions?

Like slomo, I am in a strange position. My inclination is to strongly suspect that there is at least an attempt at shaping events here, whether successful or not, but I also want evidence, and I don't know what it would actually look like.
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby lupercal » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:42 pm

bonjour all, a family hoo-hah just got canceled due to a barf bug so may I take this opportunity to wish everyone on RI happy hollies and mention that I'm sympathetic to the skeptical points of view expressed here but when you get down to it, I don't think they have much merit:

1) On the HM Challenge: a fine board game but I think we can agree that it has little to do with Hugh's project and no determinative value at all. But it sounds fun so Sepka why not see if Hugh will sell the rights;

2) On the hostility toward Hugh: I get it, but I think we can probably also agree that we're shooting the messenger. What Hugh sees is real; I've seen it enough, and at significant enough moments -- e.g. around Nov. 22 -- to be as certain of intention as of any other intel op like vote rigging, false flag bombing, etc. in their bag of tricks;

3) On Hugh's style: I think the connections he's making are novel enough that prevarication for the sake of bonhomie, i.e. IMHO qualifications and other waffley constructions, would render it unintelligible and therefore useless. So I think his direct approach is best.

4) Terminology: Hugh is actually describing several related procedures used for different purposes, which he gives various names to, and while his names aren't perfectly transparent, they're close enough. The problem is that there isn't a familiar lexicon, like of Freudian terms or rhetorical tropes, because there isn't. Hugh is writing the book so to speak and it hasn't been conveniently packaged for general consumption;

5) Likewise, demands for "evidence" at this stage are ridiculous for the same reason: this stuff is new and the research isn't available to the non-spook public. So we should be happy Hugh bothers to share it here at all, which, given the brickbats, takes some fortitude.

I'm not calling anyone a troll or anything like that, because for the most part I don't think it's nefarious, but it helps to approach Hugh's findings in the spirit of scientific objectivity Slomo is recommending. Healthy skepticism fine, but if you kill the golden goose that would be a real loss.

Finally, nice to see you again pan, there's a thread on the merits of bodily grooming you might benefit from perusing. :D
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby 12#4 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:52 pm

Hello HMW/all

What is the relevance of KWH theory in respect to the precognitive/foreknowing aspects of the scenarios depicted in the 1980s "Illuminati" Card Game?

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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby jingofever » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:27 pm

Sepka tried this once before without success.

barracuda wrote:Most of the keyword adjustments are innoculative, not predictive: they focus upon persons or events of historical interest to the agency, and swarm the search function retrospectively.

A number of his examples have been predictive like when he said Bra Boys was released to divert attention away from Wesley Clark being in charge of a Haitian refugee camp that administered drugs or disinfectants that may have given breasts to some of the male refugees just in case Clark were to become the candidate for vice-president or at least have a visible role in the campaign, neither of which happened.
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby Nordic » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:27 pm

It seems like we're treating HMW like a spoiled but defective child, trying desperately to find some relevance in his crayon drawings, trying to convince ourselves that he is, indeed, GIFTED. Unwilling to accept the fact that there's something wrong with the kid.

Why? Why is HMW so special here? Is he somebody's beloved but daft Uncle? Who is he? Seriously.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby DrVolin » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:32 pm

Nordic wrote:Who is he? Seriously.


Like you, an individual deserving of basic respect and courtesy. Especially from those who violently disagree with his ideas. Of course, anyone is free to ignore his posts, in which case the issue becomes moot.
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

--Guns and Roses
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby DrVolin » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:39 pm

This thread (and a few others), by the way, is evidence that there is strong interest in discussing these issues at RI, regardless of Hugh's presence or participation.
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

--Guns and Roses
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Re: The Hugh Manatee Challenge

Postby barracuda » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:40 pm

It's the holiday season, so we at RI, like just about any other family, take some time out for mandatory gossip about our weird relatives.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
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