The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:28 am

Simulist wrote:
blanc wrote:"Someone was paid, and probably quite well, to write something that should have been Swiftian satire but sadly isn't."

tangential question. Do sociopaths, including oligarchical, understand satire or indeed have a sense of humour? Can anyone call to mind one who is good for a laugh?

You know, that is really an excellent question. A sense of humor, even a dark sense of humor, seems to require at least some capacity for empathy, even if the end result is anything but empathetic to the subject of the "humor."

And yes, you're right: I have noticed that people in the category of narcissists, sociopaths, etc. do seem to have a noticeably low HQ (or as I tend to think of it: "Humor Quotient"). And even when they do have a sense of humor, it is usually very under-developed.

Thanks for bringing this up.


I have a different take - my experience is that there seem to be a class of sociopaths who appear very funny and warm - and who thrive on the attention that wit and humour can bring them. The humour is used in service of what they want, at creating a mask.

There is a really difficult paradox at work here - some of the most brilliant coaching work I have seen take place, the sort where a person's experiences 'getting their life back' , which had long term, visible, lasting effects - was done by a sociopath. To say he was good at it is as naff as saying Jimi Hendrix was 'talented' on the guitar.

How does a society (or each of us as individuals) deal with 'Janus' people - the one's who who have one 'face' that is stunningly talented at rare and valuable skills and the other 'face' which has the characteristics of the worst James Bond villain?.

On further reflection...
On the other hand, I have witnessed something similar, where a 'funny' psychopath will tell a joke or story in a situation that is totally not appropriate - for example - a friends' mum died unexpectedly - the sociopath answered with a "You are lucky and shouldn't complain, because my bitch of a mother is still alive". The effect was an online "WTF???". I think sociopaths have a real weakness during the moments that cause people to react in really unpredictable ways, like learning of a bereavement.

There is also the aspect that Jack Riddler related, of sociopathy as a 'state'. A 'state' is something which can be modelled, using NLP.

It would be a great modelling project.
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Simulist » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:39 am

blanc wrote:I brought the humour question up because of an observation. To explain, I spent some time with r.a. perpetrators without knowing of their crimes (another story). Various things on looking back give me that 'I should have known' feeling, incidents which stuck in the mind as being odd without obviously being elucidating. Of these, several incidents, but one in particular, of one of them telling a joke. Its hard to describe verbally communication which goes on at a non verbal level, but the strong sense that the joke teller did not comprehend the joke and was observing our reactions like some kind of white coated researcher staring into a dish at a bunch of cells. The eyes were as cold as a dead fish's. Looking back, I supposed that the world of the psychopath is too literal to understand humour. Humour relies on empathy, but also on shared boundries, a kind of moral compass, and a keen sense of one's own hypocricy in presenting one face to the world and thinking or doing something else. They have no such sense of hypocricy or dishonesty - fooling others by a structure of lies, double talk, cover story is as essential and natural as eating a slice of toast for breakfast. No shame about it. They don't share boundries or moral sense.

It would be interesting to examine some sort of statistics on this (if there are any) to see if I'm right, but it has seemed to me that psychopaths have been an up-and-coming breed for at least a century now. (Does capitalism provide a warm, damp environment in which they can and do flourish?) If it's true that they are increasing in number, then that is indeed disturbing.

How poetic (and funny!) it would be then if it turned out that humor were not only the secret code that psychopaths just cannot manage to understand at all well, but also the very weapon capable of defeating them.
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby whipstitch » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:54 am

It would be interesting to examine some sort of statistics on this (if there are any) to see if I'm right, but it has seemed to me that psychopaths have been an up-and-coming breed for at least a century now.

Thomas Sheridan says that 4%-5% of the population are psychopaths. I found this podcast more than a little disturbing (but fascinating)...
Thomas Sheridan - The Labyrinth of the Psychopath & The Intraspecies Predators
Thomas Sheridan is an artist, writer and musician from Ireland. His first major book Puzzling People: The Labyrinth of the Psychopath, is a first-person account of the cheats, the charlatans, the liars, the neglectful parents, abusive teachers, two-faced politicians and their Psychopathic Control Grid, tyrannical bosses and colleagues from hell we have all encountered, including the lying lovers who use us then lose us in an instant. Puzzling People takes a look at how the minds of psychopaths work and why, and focuses on what you can do to survive and thrive and ultimately escape forever. In the first hour of this interview, Thomas will talk about the individual psychopath. He'll talk about their consciousness, drive and tactics and will share a personal story of his experience with a psychopath. Thomas will tell us how psychopaths serve as evolutionary triggers and what we need to do to break free of them. He says we are at the cusp where the psycho control grid either tightens or loses control because of awareness. Topics discussed: moral insanity, internal chaos, pathology, invented personas, playing on pity, intraspecies predator, spiritual parasite, the R-complex, managers, promoters, the enlightenment, shadow projection, Joseph Campbell, neurosis, Darwinism and more.
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:17 am

Simulist wrote:It would be interesting to examine some sort of statistics on this (if there are any) to see if I'm right, but it has seemed to me that psychopaths have been an up-and-coming breed for at least a century now. (Does capitalism provide a warm, damp environment in which they can and do flourish?) If it's true that they are increasing in number, then that is indeed disturbing.


Compared to what? Monarchy? Other oligarchies? Agrarian empires? Nomadic warrior tribes? Churches and theocracies? Isolated villages? Cult compounds? Families?! Militaries?!?! I'll agree with Marx in observing that capitalism (call it modernism if you prefer) lifts the magical veils, reduces human relations to material essentials and remasters them into more economically efficient (not "better") forms. Nowadays there are many more freak-flags of sociopathy, they fly more obviously and are promoted and sold as attractive brands of being and behavior, rather than as divine necessity, tradition or The One Good. The sociopaths know how to disguise and conform, as they always have, but we have a useful, accurate name for the condition.

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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Simulist » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:22 am

It seems to me that capitalism provides ample opportunity, perhaps unparalleled so far in history, for the most cleverly brutish (and psychopathic) among us to rise directly to the "top."
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:02 pm

"As for the Republicans -- how can one regard seriously a frightened, greedy, nostalgic huddle of tradesmen and lucky idlers who shut their eyes to history and science, steel their emotions against decent human sympathy, cling to sordid and provincial ideals exalting sheer acquisitiveness and condoning artificial hardship for the non-materially-shrewd, dwell smugly and sentimentally in a distorted dream-cosmos of outmoded phrases and principles and attitudes based on the bygone agricultural-handicraft world, and revel in (consciously or unconsciously) mendacious assumptions (such as the notion that real liberty is synonymous with the single detail of unrestricted economic license or that a rational planning of resource-distribution would contravene some vague and mystical 'American heritage'...) utterly contrary to fact and without the slightest foundation in human experience? Intellectually, the Republican idea deserves the tolerance and respect one gives to the dead."

-- H.P. Lovecraft (!) to C.L. Moore, August 1936
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Simulist » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:14 pm

That's a hell of a quote, Mac. Absolutely great.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Jeff » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:58 pm

Simulist wrote:That's a hell of a quote, Mac. Absolutely great.


Like Simulist said, Mac. Thanks for that.
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Saurian Tail » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:59 pm

This article is laugh out loud funny for the sheer puzzlement exhibited at the concept of Psychopathic traders. "If it quacks like a duck ..."

[on edit: this article is so direct in its truth telling that it is probably a "Yes Man' production!]

09/26/2011

Going Rogue, Share Traders More Reckless Than Psychopaths, Study Shows


Image
Getty Images, UBS trader Kweku Adoboli, shown leaving a London court on Sept. 22, allegedly made unauthorized trades that cost the Swiss investment bank billions.

What makes individual stockbrokers blow billions in financial markets with criminal trading schemes? According to a new study conducted at a Swiss university, it may be because share traders behave more recklessly and are more manipulative than psychopaths.

Two weeks ago, yet another case of rogue trading shocked the financial world when UBS trader Kweku Adoboli was arrested for allegedly squandering some $2.3 billion with a risky and unauthorized investment scheme. The 31-year-old, who had been based in London for the Swiss bank, remains in jail. The bank's chief executive Oswald Grübel, meanwhile, has resigned over the scandal -- the third major embarrassment to rattle the institution in just a few years.

The situation mirrors a similar scandal at French bank Société Générale, where another young "rogue trader," Jérôme Kerviel , gambled away billions in 2007 and 2008. But why do these situations keep arising in the financial world?

According to a new study at the University of St. Gallen seen by SPIEGEL, one contributing factor may be that stockbrokers' behavior is more reckless and manipulative than that of psychopaths. Researchers at the Swiss research university measured the readiness to cooperate and the egotism of 28 professional traders who took part in computer simulations and intelligence tests. The results, compared with the behavior of psychopaths, exceeded the expectations of the study's co-authors, forensic expert Pascal Scherrer, and Thomas Noll, a lead administrator at the Pöschwies prison north of Zürich.

Appetite for Destruction

"Naturally one can't characterize the traders as deranged," Noll told SPIEGEL. "But for example, they behaved more egotistically and were more willing to take risks than a group of psychopaths who took the same test."

Particularly shocking for Noll was the fact that the bankers weren't aiming for higher winnings than their comparison group. Instead they were more interested in achieving a competitive advantage. Instead of taking a sober and businesslike approach to reaching the highest profit, "it was most important to the traders to get more than their opponents," Noll explained. "And they spent a lot of energy trying to damage their opponents."
Using a metaphor to describe the behavior, Noll said the stockbrokers behaved as though their neighbor had the same car, "and they took after it with a baseball bat so they could look better themselves."

The researchers were unable to explain this penchant for destruction, they said.

--SPIEGEL Staff
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby crikkett » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:45 am

Saurian Tail wrote:
09/26/2011

The researchers were unable to explain this penchant for destruction, they said.

--SPIEGEL Staff


I think it's the adrenaline rush that they're addicted to. Like a gambling addiction.
It's easy and fun to fool around with other people's money. Isn't it?
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:12 pm

crikkett wrote:
Saurian Tail wrote:
09/26/2011

The researchers were unable to explain this penchant for destruction, they said.

--SPIEGEL Staff


I think it's the adrenaline rush that they're addicted to. Like a gambling addiction.
It's easy and fun to fool around with other people's money. Isn't it?


Sociopathic behavior is systemic to the financial industry. It is expected, rewarded, required, celebrated. This goes from the long-haired mortgage sharks conning NINJAs into the meatgrinder for the subprime scams all the way to the gold-cufflinked bulletheads settling quadrillions in derivative bets on shit they don't even own at the BIS soiree in Zurich. Occasionally the sociopathy is acknowledged and praised for being sociopathic, as such. (See, among countless other examples, Enron traders laughing about California Grandma's electric bill as a result of "Death Star," or the Goldman e-mails to and from Patrice "The Fabulous Fab" Fabre.) The resulting failures are almost never punished, and in fact also usually rewarded, the very occasional indictments of people far below the top levels notwithstanding.

If you were insufficiently sociopathic and you didn't make as much money as the trader at the next desk over: Fuck you.

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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:50 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 82502.html

Brian Basham: Beware corporate psychopaths – they are still occupying positions of power

Over the years I've met my fair share of monsters – rogue individuals, for the most part. But as regulation in the UK and the US has loosened its restraints, the monsters have proliferated.

In a paper recently published in the Journal of Business Ethics entitled "The Corporate Psychopaths: Theory of the Global Financial Crisis", Clive R Boddy identifies these people as psychopaths.

"They are," he says, "simply the 1 per cent of people who have no conscience or empathy." And he argues: "Psychopaths, rising to key senior positions within modern financial corporations, where they are able to influence the moral climate of the whole organisation and yield considerable power, have largely caused the [banking] crisis'.

And Mr Boddy is not alone. In Jon Ronson's widely acclaimed book The Psychopath Test, Professor Robert Hare told the author: "I should have spent some time inside the Stock Exchange as well. Serial killer psychopaths ruin families. Corporate and political and religious psychopaths ruin economies. They ruin societies."

Cut to a pleasantly warm evening in Bahrain. My companion, a senior UK investment banker and I, are discussing the most successful banking types we know and what makes them tick. I argue that they often conform to the characteristics displayed by social psychopaths. To my surprise, my friend agrees.

He then makes an astonishing confession: "At one major investment bank for which I worked, we used psychometric testing to recruit social psychopaths because their characteristics exactly suited them to senior corporate finance roles."

Here was one of the biggest investment banks in the world seeking psychopaths as recruits.

Mr Ronson spoke to scores of psychologists about their understanding of the damage that psychopaths could do to society. None of those psychologists could have imagined, I'm sure, the existence of a bank that used the science of spotting them as a recruiting mechanism.

I've never met Dick Fuld, the former CEO of Lehman Brothers and the architect of its downfall, but I've seen him on video and it's terrifying. He snarled to Lehman staff that he wanted to "rip out their [his competitors] hearts and eat them before they died". So how did someone like Mr Fuld get to the top of Lehman? You don't need to see the video to conclude he was weird; you could take a little more time and read a 2,200-page report by Anton Valukas, the Chicago-based lawyer hired by a US court to investigate Lehman's failure. Mr Valukas revealed systemic chicanery within the bank; he described management failures and a destructive, internal culture of reckless risk-taking worthy of any psychopath.

So why wasn't Mr Fuld spotted and stopped? I've concluded it's the good old question of nature and nurture but with a new interpretation. As I see it, in its search for never-ending growth, the financial services sector has actively sought out monsters with natures like Mr Fuld and nurtured them with bonuses and praise.

We all understand that sometimes businesses have to be cut back to ensure their survival, and where those cuts should fall is as relevant to a company as it is, today, to the UK economy; should it bear down upon the rich or the poor?

Making those cuts doesn't make psychopaths of the cutters, but the financial sector's lack of remorse for the pain it encourages people to inflict is purely psychopathic. Surely the action of cutting should be a matter for sorrow and regret? People's lives are damaged, even destroyed. However, that's not how the financial sector sees it.

Take Sir Fred Goodwin of RBS, for example. Before he racked up a corporate loss of £24.1bn, the highest in UK history, he was idolised by the City. In recognition of his work in ruthlessly cutting costs at Clydesdale Bank he got the nickname "Fred the Shred", and he played that for all it was worth. He was later described as "a corporate Attila", a title of which any psychopath would be proud.

Mr Ronson reports: "Justice departments and parole boards all over the world have accepted Hare's contention that psychopaths are quite simply incurable and everyone should concentrate their energies instead on learning how to root them out."

But, far from being rooted out, they are still in place and often in positions of even greater power.

As Mr Boddy warns: "The very same corporate psychopaths, who probably caused the crisis by their self-seeking greed and avarice, are now advising governments on how to get out of the crisis. Further, if the corporate psychopaths theory of the global financial crisis is correct, then we are now far from the end of the crisis. Indeed, it is only the end of the beginning."

I became familiar with psychopaths early in life. They were the hard men who terrorised south-east London when I was growing up. People like "Mad" Frankie Fraser and the Richardson brothers. They were what we used to call "red haze" men, and they were frightening because they attacked with neither fear, mercy nor remorse.

Regarding Messrs Hare, Ronson, Boddy and others, I've realised that some psychopaths "forge careers in corporations. The group is called Corporate Psychopaths". They are polished and plausible, but that doesn't make them any less dangerous.

In attempting to understand the complexities of what went wrong in the years leading to 2008, I've developed a rule: "In an unregulated world, the least-principled people rise to the top." And there are none who are less principled than corporate psychopaths.
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Elvis » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:44 pm

Pele'sDaughter wrote:
My companion, a senior UK investment banker and I, are discussing the most successful banking types we know and what makes them tick. I argue that they often conform to the characteristics displayed by social psychopaths. To my surprise, my friend agrees.

He then makes an astonishing confession: "At one major investment bank for which I worked, we used psychometric testing to recruit social psychopaths because their characteristics exactly suited them to senior corporate finance roles."


That's exactly what happened with a close friend's wife: in the '80s, while in her mid-'30s, she tired of her menial job and went back to school, acquiring an MBA with some kind of associated certificate in insurance peddling. Her first applications were to one of the big insurance companies and included a battery of personality tests. A test question might be paraphrased something like,

"Would you stab someone in the back to make more money and increase the company's market share?"

She still 'had her ethics up', and, at the least, to make a good impression as an honest person, quite naturally answered, "No!".

She "failed the test" with no explanation. She retook it, with fresh vigor in displaying her honesty and high ethics.

She "failed" again and again.

Finally it dawned on her that the huge insurance company was NOT LOOKING FOR HONEST PEOPLE.

She took the test again. This time, to those questions such as

"Would you stab someone in the back to make more money?"

her answers were, "Hell yes, you bet your ass I would!" Down the line.

She was in.

She had figured out how to "get ahead." She embraced her new "principles" and rose quickly at the insurance company. Even after telling me all this, she had the gall to try and sell me a totally shitty "whole life" insurance policy; when I replied that almost any investment was better than "whole life," her training kicked in. Silence. (There really is no good response, and the prospect, me, was obviously not going to sign up anytime soon, or ever, so not worth another moment of time.)

It's interesting to note that it was around this time that she began to have real problems with debilitating migraine headaches. But that didn't stop her "progress."

Before long, she moved to banking and soon was an officer in a branch of one of the worst subprime mortgage offenders. Then she moved to a bigger city and bigger job and I'm sure she's "done really well for herself" as they say.


Saurian Tail wrote:
stockbrokers' behavior is more reckless and manipulative than that of psychopaths. Researchers at the Swiss research university measured the readiness to cooperate and the egotism of 28 professional traders who took part in computer simulations and intelligence tests. The results, compared with the behavior of psychopaths, exceeded the expectations of the study's co-authors


Defining all the pathologies can get fuzzy, but I think clinical narcissism plays a big role in the behavior of many traders, investment bankers, politicians etc. True narcissists are a special breed, and among 'behavioral disorders' narcissism is probably the most untreatable. That said, it's true that "some people are just assholes."
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:51 pm

The documentary film called 'The Corporation' made the excellent case that corporate motivations and legal agendas as totally self-serving are...psychopathic.

Organizations dehumanize participants and blunt our social animal selves.
Unless this aspect of our species is very very deliberately protected and nurtured, a sort of 'affirmative action' plan for our collective humanity.
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Re: The Sociopatholigarchy Thread

Postby Elvis » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:08 pm

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:The documentary film called 'The Corporation' made the excellent case that corporate motivations and legal agendas as totally self-serving are...psychopathic.


Yes, and 'The Corporation' is an excellent film for introducing these ideas to people, it's opened a lot of eyes to the sociopatholigarchy.
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