Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby slomo » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:47 am

crikkett wrote:I hope you come to realize that Ron Paul is a poison pill, who if elected wouldn't be able to End the Fed, the War on Drugs, withdraw troops from overseas adventures, or put a single banker in jail anymore than Obama would close Gitmo. But as someone here did point out, he would likely succeed in privatizing social security and eliminating social programs that are already inadequate, and he would send our society's struggle for equality for all its citizens hurtling backwards.

This is a key issue that most Paul enthusiasts are failing to recognize. It's true that we are fucked.
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby Elihu » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:28 pm

Well, I personally think that a statement against imperialism and the Drug War is so important that I'm still considering voting for RP in my state's open primary. I've seen plenty of videos of Paul, and I believe I know who he is and understand the "right-wing populism phenomenon.
whether you do or not, kudos, you've got gutz!

That said, though, I lost you guys a bit on the Federal Reserve....Elihu, I'm curious what your vision of societal transformation is.
one word six syllables: de-cen-tral-i-za-tion. the irredeemability (this means issuance subject to the will of a particular group of men/women) in the closed loop drives the growth of entities to stupendous size. hence the size of government, the size of corporations, the size of universities, the size of armies, the size of agricultural production, etc. their growth is simultaneous and synergystic. the result on society is an elimination of alternatives. the only work is that provided by a big corporation, the only food is that grown and distributed long distances by the combine, the only medicine is that provided by the combine, the only candidates are those provided by the combine, the only news and information is that provided by the combine. the only education is that provided by the combine. and it's coercive. it says: this is not only the best of all possible worlds, it's the only possible world. to think otherwise is looney. look at all the good we do and protection we provide!

damon vrabel did a great series in renaissance 101 where he likened it to a pyramid or a hurricane: a broad, broad base, sucking in energy from the outer bands and funneling it toward the center and upward. the great rich men are not rich because they created that much value. they're rich because they serve in the narrow professions toward the point of the pyramind (or eye of the hurricane). they're collecting rent from millions and millions of people. politicians, lawyers, bankers, ceo's, entertainers, etc.

the currency (mammon) is the lifeblood of the beast. although fiat has built an awesome world of buildings, rocket ships, computers, pageants, violence and propaganda, what's it all been for? it has been lucidly pointed out that this growth has not been organic. it is wasteful and violent in the extreme.

Paul's vision of the world certainly still includes transnational corporations running the show and no democratic powers ("regulations") holding them in check.
i think this is fundamentally mis-understood. he's not talking about taming the beast, he's talking about ending it. in my idea of a transformed society economic activity would be tethered to a more earth-centric reality. since fresh food tends to rot most of it would be consumed fairly quickly and within a small radius of it's point of origin. people would not drive 50 miles one way to do a job that could be done next door (bye global warming). governments would not undertake anything they could not convince the people to actually pay for vs forcing them to pay for it (bye bye imperial war on the other side of planet). where little if anything is illegal the unsustainable profits of prohibition disappear and destructive behavior becomes self-limiting (this includes racism).

i could go on but i'll spare you. maynard keynes the high priest himself put it best when he said "it engages all the hidden forces of economics on the side of destruction, and in a way hard to diagnose". why not extend property law protection to money itself? after all, it is the ultimate property.

.. only the Dennis Kucinich's and Cynthia McKinney's address these things. The Federal Reserve is one part of a massive global scam known as capitalism. Michael Moore speaks about it approximately 100 times more accurately than Ron Paul. Yet I believe Ron Paul to be sincere, humanistic in his intention, and not consciously racist himself, though he sure draws that crowd....
i cannot understand why dennis or ralph or cynthia are not even doing a token nomination fight. the publicity itself would be worth it. yes ron does apparently draw that crowd. in the end freedom is freedom to good as well as evil. unlike ad i do not believe it is possible or could end in anything other than a big brother state to try and screen them out or track them down. everyone's actions will speak for themselves and since they get no government protection for it and they're paying for it out of their own pocket, well all i can say is good luck with that....
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby eyeno » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:16 pm

But as someone here did point out, he would likely succeed in privatizing social security and eliminating social programs that are already inadequate, and he would send our society's struggle for equality for all its citizens hurtling backwards.


I've heard him talk about reducing social programs but i've never heard him explicitly say he wanted to "privatize social security." Did he actually say that? That seems to be the opposite of his basic philosophy. Handing a private financial organization the social security egg seems to be exactly the type of thing he speaks against. Did he actually say he wanted to privatize it?
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby crikkett » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:30 pm

eyeno wrote:
But as someone here did point out, he would likely succeed in privatizing social security and eliminating social programs that are already inadequate, and he would send our society's struggle for equality for all its citizens hurtling backwards.


I've heard him talk about reducing social programs but i've never heard him explicitly say he wanted to "privatize social security." Did he actually say that? That seems to be the opposite of his basic philosophy. Handing a private financial organization the social security egg seems to be exactly the type of thing he speaks against. Did he actually say he wanted to privatize it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ ... l_Security

Social Security

Paul has given 12 updates on his Texas Straight Talk archive on the issue of Social Security.[79] Paul considers Social Security unconstitutional,[80] and he has sought for many years for the program to be phased out.[81][82] He says that the Social Security system, which he has called "a giant Ponzi scheme,"[83] is in "bad shape ... The numbers aren't there"; funds are depleting because Congress borrows from the Social Security fund every year to fund its budget.[84] Paul's 2013 budget proposal would guarantee to uphold Social Security commitments to older workers while allowing Americans under 25 to opt out of participating in the program.[36][85]
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby Luther Blissett » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:44 pm

crikkett wrote:We're fucked. I wish I could vote for Dennis Kucinich again.


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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby eyeno » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:52 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ ... l_Security


Paul endorses defederalization of the health care system. Paul also states that he has an opposition to virtually all federal interference with the market process.[


Can't say that I disagree with that one considering the cluster fuc* the government has made of it. And with Obamacare in the coming years it will only get worse. Poor people that can't afford to pay will be forced to pay or get fined. I don't remember what the exact proposed fines are but they are fairly hefty amounts, and it will accrue year after year. Some of the poorest people will get buried in big fines and still not have healthcare. The notion is that the poorest people will be put on the same playing field as the middle and upper class but its bullshit because they still have to pay for it. Granted in some ways it would help poor people afford care they could not otherwise afford and I also realize that. The health care they provide will be limited and not worth a shit too. Sooner or later they will force people to take meds and flu shots for "the good of society" as well.

Right now there is no true competition in the healthcare market because the fda won't allow it, its a monopoly. If the feds were forced to butt out the so called "alternative" treatments could compete and the monopoly house of cards would come crashing down in a huge way. The monopoly would be forced to compete with real cures and the merry go round of 'treat for life but never cure' would have to bite the dust. Real medicine, simple things like changes in diet and inexpensive herbs for Type 2 diabetes alone would wipe out a huge leg of that damn beast. Competition like that would make health care affordable to people that never dreamed they could afford quality care.

And on edit thanx for the info crickett. Doesn't look like he wants to hand social security over to a private financial institution though, unless that info is leaving out some things. Looks more like he wants to restructure it and shield it from thievery and give people the option to save their own money instead of being forced. Matter of fact at this second that rings a bell. I've heard him say (i think) that people could take the same amount of money they are forced to pay, put it in a safe investment vehicle of some sort, and come out equally as well or better.
Last edited by eyeno on Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby Sounder » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:24 pm

crikkett is right. with Paul we would get all the bad and none of the good. Only a different game altogether can cure this thing.
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby Elihu » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:47 pm

But as someone here did point out, he would likely succeed in privatizing social security and eliminating social programs that are already inadequate, and he would send our society's struggle for equality for all its citizens hurtling backwards.


as i understand it, the economics of fiat, it's not that paul wants to end anything for parsimonious reasons. it's going to end anyway. after the default, there's not going to be any social security. or welfare or social assistance or farm subsidies or drug development grants or military campaigns or nea, or anything as we currently experience them. everything the fedgov does dips from the same funding pot that is running dry. the two options are to retrench or proceed. the struggle for equality under the current system has already reached its zenith. a crash will hurtle the 99% backwards towards much greater equality than now...
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby eyeno » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:12 pm

Elihu wrote:
But as someone here did point out, he would likely succeed in privatizing social security and eliminating social programs that are already inadequate, and he would send our society's struggle for equality for all its citizens hurtling backwards.


as i understand it, the economics of fiat, it's not that paul wants to end anything for parsimonious reasons. it's going to end anyway. after the default, there's not going to be any social security. or welfare or social assistance or farm subsidies or drug development grants or military campaigns or nea, or anything as we currently experience them. everything the fedgov does dips from the same funding pot that is running dry. the two options are to retrench or proceed. the struggle for equality under the current system has already reached its zenith. a crash will hurtle the 99% backwards towards much greater equality than now...



Also though a crash tends to purge the unsustainable debt from the system so that a new cycle can be born. Its been happening that way for hundreds of years, maybe longer I think. When the house of cards comes down the poor folk take a serious haircut but the controllers are set up for the next run the way I understand it. If they took down social security and didn't jump start it after a crash i'm not sure it would be because the social security system is unsustainable forever but because they blamed it on the crash. In a crash I think it might go down temporarily but if they didn't put it back in the system I would think it would be a purposeful act. And i'm not sure they would do it because they love to use the fund for leverage and play with the money. But Dmitry Orlov has been warning us for years that we are headed for pretty much the exact train wreck Russia had so who knows, and he makes a fairly convincing case too.

http://www.susanmernit.com/blog/2009/02 ... d-soc.html
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby Elihu » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:29 pm

though a crash tends to purge the unsustainable debt from the system so that a new cycle can be born. Its been happening that way for hundreds of years, maybe longer I think. When the house of cards comes down the poor folk take a serious haircut but the controllers are set up for the next run the way I understand it.
i agree. they have a plan. they know what comes next.
If they took down social security and didn't jump start it after a crash i'm not sure it would be because the system crashed but because they blamed it on the crash. In a crash I think it might go down temporarily but if they didn't put it back in the system I would think it would be a purposeful act. And i'm not sure they would do it because they love to use the fund for leverage and play with the money.
i think it will coincide with something big like a war or pandemic or something and the existing gov will expand to fill the void. most sustenance such as it is will come from the gov. we will see price controls, ration cards, checkpoints, loyalty tests, maybe roundups, the whole nine. this day and this conversation will seem like a distant dream. imho...
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby brainpanhandler » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:45 pm

eyeno wrote:
Paul endorses defederalization of the health care system. Paul also states that he has an opposition to virtually all federal interference with the market process.[


Can't say that I disagree with that one considering the cluster fuc* the government has made of it. And with Obamacare in the coming years it will only get worse. Poor people that can't afford to pay will be forced to pay or get fined. I don't remember what the exact proposed fines are but they are fairly hefty amounts, and it will accrue year after year. Some of the poorest people will get buried in big fines and still not have healthcare. The notion is that the poorest people will be put on the same playing field as the middle and upper class but its bullshit because they still have to pay for it. Granted in some ways it would help poor people afford care they could not otherwise afford and I also realize that. The health care they provide will be limited and not worth a shit too. Sooner or later they will force people to take meds and flu shots for "the good of society" as well.


I'm not for mandates either. Practically no one is except the health insurance corporations and their lackeys in DC.

Single payer.

Right now there is no true competition in the healthcare market because the fda won't allow it, its a monopoly.


I think you mean HHS. The FDA does not control the "healthcare market".

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA or USFDA) is an agency of the United States Department of Health and Human Services, one of the United States federal executive departments. The FDA is responsible for protecting and promoting public health through the regulation and supervision of food safety, tobacco products, dietary supplements, prescription and over-the-counter pharmaceutical drugs (medications), vaccines, biopharmaceuticals, blood transfusions, medical devices, electromagnetic radiation emitting devices (ERED), veterinary products, and cosmetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_D ... nistration





If the feds were forced to butt out the so called "alternative" treatments could compete and the monopoly house of cards would come crashing down in a huge way. The monopoly would be forced to compete with real cures and the merry go round of 'treat for life but never cure' would have to bite the dust. Real medicine, simple things like changes in diet and inexpensive herbs for Type 2 diabetes alone would wipe out a huge leg of that damn beast. Competition like that would make health care affordable to people that never dreamed they could afford quality care.


If we had single payer then we could leverage the buying power of everyone to force the pharmaceutical companies to compete.

I agree that western medicine and in particular the pharmaceutical industry are often about treating the symptoms and arguably perpetuating the symptoms and sometimes just outright fabricating diseases and disorders so as to create an endless market. But let's not toss the whole enterprise out the window. Do I need to list the accomplishments of modern medicine?
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby eyeno » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:47 pm

i think it will coincide with something big like a war or pandemic or something and the existing gov will expand to fill the void. most sustenance such as it is will come from the gov. we will see price controls, ration cards, checkpoints, loyalty tests, maybe roundups, the whole nine. this day and this conversation will seem like a distant dream. imho..



I'm in the same ballpark with you and I think the people that don't believe it may be in for a really rude shock.
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby Elihu » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:59 pm

I'm in the same ballpark with you and I think the people that don't believe it may be in for a really rude shock.
well it did sound a bit overly dramatic after i wrote it. watch out for characters like that. but that's the disconnect. people like what they perceive as the "good" parts of the system not realizing that it's all part and parcel of the same system. so what's the general overall health of the system? admittedly it's a bit too big for small prognosticators like us to go making predictions...
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby brainpanhandler » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:02 pm

Elihu wrote:
But as someone here did point out, he would likely succeed in privatizing social security and eliminating social programs that are already inadequate, and he would send our society's struggle for equality for all its citizens hurtling backwards.


as i understand it, the economics of fiat, it's not that paul wants to end anything for parsimonious reasons.


Why then do you believe Paul wants those under 25 to be able to opt out of ss? On principle?

And if it's all going to come crashing down anyway in your view, isn't Paul a sucker for believing that people should be able to save their own money for retirement as they see fit?
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Re: Anonymous hacks A3P, Claims Neo-Nazi Links to Ron Paul

Postby RobinDaHood » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:36 pm

Orlov also believes we're reaching the natural limits of Gaia's benevolence, for lack of a better term.
his famous book Reinventing Collapse: The Soviet Example and American Prospects, and related talks on peak oil, social collapse and how the lessons of post Soviet Russia in the 90's can serve us now as our economy tanks?

Between Peak Oil, Peak Fresh Water, Peak Arable Land, Peak Clean Air, and Peak Ecological Diversity this goose is cooked. The ecological 'slack' needed to restart the industrial economy simply doesn't exist at this point. Even the mainstream pundits have been asking what economic growth would do to oil prices would do to economic growth. Maybe if we'd taken the Soviet lesson back then, done the maths, and removed the predators from running the system, we wouldn't be faced with such abhorrent choices now. But we didn't! I mentioned Jimmy Carter upthread. He's an engineer (capable of understanding the numbers). Now given, everything he said didn't come to fruition in the timeline he suggested, most of the problems have become more acute.
The rub lies in the voters response. Carter, thanks to a little October Surprise, was ousted convincingly and has been turned into the Elmer Fudd of modern politicians since. Instead Amerikuh chose blissful ignorance, a smiling puppet, and for 32 years or so (slightly longer than I've been alive) has been run at high speed toward a cliff to the sole benefit of the "Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One" vampire class.
Right about the time M. King Hubbard was getting his reputation back (1970-72) Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfy and the rest were just stepping in to the halls of power. When ole Georgia Jimmy decided to go all anti-capitalist and accept Amerikuh's diminished capacities in light of natural limits that just wouldn't sit with them. And before anyone thinks we should be thanking them for keeping us on top of the shit heap, it was exactly the "American way of life is non-negotiable" attitude that set in place endless war, ever increasing police state and social serfdom we now have.
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