Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:28 pm

Barracuda wrote:- The drawing shows at least two different line weights, each with it's own distinctive purpose: the heavier line completely surrounds and defines the shape of the form as the lighter, thinner line adds the internal details.


I would add that it appears to me as though each line was likely done with a single motion. It does not look as though the artist went back and tried to fill in the gaps left in the lines by the uneven surface or at least that seems true of the internal lines.

Which leads me to wonder about how these suvived for 42,000 years on a stalactite in a cave which by it's sparkly appearance is still wet and actively growing.

From the op article:

The charcoals were next to the seals


What does this mean? Charcoal?

Charcoal paintings, lightly deposited on the surface of a stalactite 42,000 years ago look that fresh?

I dunno.

Wouldn't they at least look a bit more obscured than they do? At least? I do note there seems to be a general discoloration of the stalactite. But that is what I would expect from a more modern origin.

the wiki article on stalactites wrote:An average growth rate is 0.13 mm (0.0051 inches) a year. The quickest growing stalactites are those formed by fast-flowing water rich in calcium carbonate and carbon dioxide, these can grow at 3 mm (0.12 inches) per year.[3]


There's nothing in the op photo for scale, but assuming the person who took the picture is standing on the cave floor we can guess that these stalactites are fairly large. 5 - 10 ft long?
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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:18 pm

After a bit of reading about the caves of nerja I guess I'll drop the question of modern origin. But now I'm equally intrigued by these musical columns!

From the wiki article on the caves of nerja:

Approximately 5 million years ago, during the Upper Miocene, water penetrated the fissures of the marble rock and dissolved it, forming a huge subterranean cavern. Seismic movement and landslides during the Holocene forced the water to find new pathways through the cave system and began the formation of the giant stalactites and stalagmites that can be seen in the cave.

Skeletal remains found in the caverns indicate that they were inhabited from about 25,000 BC up until the Bronze Age. Cave paintings from the Paleolithic and post-Paleolithic eras have been discovered on the walls of the cave. For about 4,000 years from 25,000 BC the caves were used seasonally by a small group of humans, and were occupied by cave hyena during the periods that the humans were absent. By 21,000 BC the human population had taken up year round residence in the caves and had increased in number. A culture based on hunting in the local area had evolved, illustrated by first cave paintings found in the cave which date to around the time. Pine nuts and snails were also important elements of the diet. Up until around 10,800 BC the hunting culture continued to develop with more prey species being taken, including goats, rabbits, fish and marine mammals. A wide variety of animal bones, shells and fish bones from this time have been found in the cave, including the remains of a number of offshore species, along with stone and bone tools. By 4500 BC domesticated animals were being kept and the area around the cave was being used for farming and the production of pottery. By 3800 BC textiles and more advanced styles of pottery were being produced and parts of the cave were being used as a burial chamber.



Further down into the hall is the Organ Corner (Rincón del Órgano) where fluted columns can be struck to produce different notes. Some of the columns seem to have been intentionally altered to produce different notes by the prehistoric inhabitants of the cave.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caves_of_Nerja
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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby The Consul » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:23 pm

Within the cave Platonic shadows of the ancient brain that was enwebbed with more than one kind of human cortex, different emerging strains of consciousness. Were they dancing yet around the flames, on the brink of discovering shadow art and making sacrifices to the shadow demon? Six hundred generations preceding Wallace Stevens carrying the strain straight to the hand between the candle and the wall/grows large against the wall.

The magic of no knowledge seeking the tree of life which in that moment was the seal who’s blood dripped on the charcoal and became part of the painting, the seal in death, quick grace in her element, the flight of the sea alive in me, the seal as provider, dripping out part of itself like Pollack drunk and cut by glass passing out on the platform above the cave of his canvass, which receives the broken glass, the blood, the wine. Blood and fat in every line with the fallen trees of the holy fire.

An ancient stain holds a mysterious secret that here in the time of the Helix Seal we may not have enough earth soul left to ask the right question. For here we walk in a world that is covered in a crust of bone dust and powdered stars. Paint on. Let life live anew in other eyes through what we leave on this our stone.
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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:48 pm

First Neanderthal cave paintings discovered in Spain
10 February 2012 by Fergal MacErlean
...

Looking oddly akin to the DNA double helix, the images in fact depict the seals that the locals would have eaten, says José Luis Sanchidrián at the University of Cordoba, Spain. They have "no parallel in Palaeolithic art", he adds. His team say that charcoal remains found beside six of the paintings – preserved in Spain's Nerja caves – have been radiocarbon dated to between 43,500 and 42,300 years old.

...

If the age is confirmed, Pettitt suggests that the cave paintings could still have been the work of modern humans. "We can't be absolutely sure that Homo sapiens were not down there in the south of Spain at this time," he says.

Sanchidrián does not rule out the possibility that the paintings were made by early Homo sapiens but says that this theory is "much more hypothetical" than the idea that Neanderthals were behind them.

Dating of the Nerja seal paintings' pigments will not take place until after 2013.

...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... ml%7CFirst
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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby psynapz » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:03 pm

Wow, I wonder if I'm as old as the graphite in my pencil?
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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby brainpanhandler » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:18 pm

The stretch of land from Nerja to Gibraltar is thought to be last area in Europe inhabited by Neanderthals before they were elbowed out by the Cro-Magnon Homo sapiens. The caves were discovered in 1959 by five schoolboys who had observed enormous numbers of bats going in and out of a hole in the ground. They finally decided to explore the hole and once they wriggled through it, they found themselves in an enormous cave now known as the Cataclysm Chamber. The seal paintings are high on the walls of that same chamber.

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/15009


Not sure where this blogger got the information that the seal paintings are in the cataclysm chamber, but if so then these paintings are in the first part of the cavern to be discovered in 1959.

Pictures of the cataclysm chamber can be identified by the large central column.

Image
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Re: brainpanhandle: Oldest painting discovered, and it's nea

Postby Allegro » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:04 am

brainpanhandler wrote:After a bit of reading about the caves of nerja I guess I'll drop the question of modern origin. But now I'm equally intrigued by these musical columns!

From the wiki article on the caves of nerja:
Further down into the hall is the Organ Corner (Rincón del Órgano) where fluted columns can be struck to produce different notes. Some of the columns seem to have been intentionally altered to produce different notes by the prehistoric inhabitants of the cave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caves_of_Nerja [REFER.]
Now, that I'd love to hear! Not kidding, either. I noticed in the wiki notes that concerts are held in an amphitheatre. Remembered.

The Consul wrote:…For here we walk in a world that is covered in a crust of bone dust and powdered stars. Paint on. Let life live anew in other eyes through what we leave on this our stone.
Wanted it. Got it. Living it. :)
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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:57 am

Slightly off-topic, but has anybody seen Herzog's Cave of Forgotten Dreams yet?

My first revelation while watching Cave of Forgotten Dreams (IFC Films), Werner Herzog's three-dimensional documentary about 30,000-year-old paintings, seemed face-palm silly a moment later: Our caveman ancestors really knew how to draw. Well of course they did. Prehistoric man wasn't skipping through the glacial landscape and scrawling on rocks like a child. He was an adult, just like you and me—and had an adult's capacity for graceful lines and shading. With a bit of homo savvy, he even appears to have figured out how to depict motion in his art. The film shows us, at one point, an eight-legged bison painted on limestone, as if the animal were posed in sequential frames of action. A sort of "proto-cinema," Herzog calls it.

Herzog is right that the setting for his film—the magnificent Chauvet cave in southern France—feels like an ancient movie theater. The paintings are situated in a dark chamber draped with calcite curtains and lit up with flickering beams from the camera crew. Framed by stalagmites, the caveman drawings seem as if they're being projected onto the walls via flashlight. (Some are overlaid on even more ancient marks—the four-lined scratches of cave bears.) After spending 90 minutes in this environment, minus some time for talking-head interviews and the obligatory epilogue about albino crocodiles, I re-emerged into the sunlight a little shaken. And quite moved: Cave of Forgotten Dreams is a Herzogian masterpiece—a ponderous and nauseating theme-park ride, but one that unfolds as a probing essay on the history of art.
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/movi ... at_ya.html


I haven't seen it yet, but it sounds awesome.

Even more off-topic, Allegro, have you heard of the Rosslyn Motet? (oops, just did a search and realised you'd made a post about it already, in a thread by Slad. I agree with your take, that the motet theory is, at least in part, a myth-making commercial enterprise, or has now become one. I was at Rosslyn last year, and it is a genuinely strange place though).

ROSSLYN Chapel holds many secrets. For hundreds of years experts and visitors alike have puzzled over the carvings in the chapel. Whilst some debate whether they point to hidden treasure, Edinburgh composer Stuart Mitchell thinks he has cracked one part of the enigma.

He believes that the ornate ceiling of carved arches, featuring 213 decorated cubes holds a code for medieval music. His father Thomas Mitchell spent 20 years cracking this code in the ceiling and now Stuart is orchestrating the findings for a new recording called The Rosslyn Motet. They hope that the music, when played on medieval instruments in situ, will resonate throughout the chapel unlocking a secret in the stone.

The breakthrough to interpreting the notation came when Mitchell's father discovered that the markings carved on the face of the cubes seem to match a phenomenon called Cymatics or Chladni patterns. Chladni patterns form when a sustained note is used to vibrate a sheet of metal covered in powder producing marks. The frequency used dictates the shape of the pattern, for example; the musical note A below middle C vibrates at 440 KHz and produces a shape that looks like a rhombus. Different notes can produce various shapes including flowers, diamonds and hexagons - shapes all present on the Rosslyn cubes. Stuart Mitchell believes this is "beyond coincidence" and has assigned a note to each cube.

Ernst Chladni first documented the phenomenon in the late 18th century - yet it appears to be present in a 15th century building. Which begs the question: "Was Sir William St Clair (the man who built Rosslyn Chapel) familiar with sciences far in advance of his time?".

Stuart Mitchell believes a link between the Knights Templar – who may have gleaned advanced Eastern scientific knowledge during their stay in Jerusalem during the Crusades – and Rosslyn could explain the encoded musical notes.


They managed to play the music in the chapel, but nothing happened except that they made quite a lot of money from selling the CD.

Since the crypt below the chapel is sealed off to everyone except the Sinclairs, who knows what the stone revealed down there? Maybe there's a bunch of old Templars staggering about in the dark, going :"Who hath awakened me?!"
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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby jingofever » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:49 am

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:Slightly off-topic, but has anybody seen Herzog's Cave of Forgotten Dreams yet?

I've seen it but not in 3D. It is fascinating but frustrating because you want to know about the people who made the paintings yet that information is lost forever. Same thing with Gobekli Tepi or Stonehenge. Plenty of jerks with theories but no certainty. But then, I still don't know why they built the Statue of Liberty or Mount Rushmore. And now that I think about it, I've been to New York City but don't remember seeing the Statue of Liberty but do remember two different Chipotles.
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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby brainpanhandler » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:52 pm

not at my home computer. Image with scale at this link:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/art/blog/20 ... as-19.html

images look to be about 18 to 24 inches long.

If they really are in the Sala del Cataclismo and that was the first chamber of these caves found in 1959, then these drawings have escaped notice for over fifty years. Which helps me to believe that "The seal paintings are high on the walls of that same chamber." Which further leads me to believe that these paintings were painted somewhere difficult to get to for some reason.

However, as the photo at the pbs website shows, it's apparently no longer that difficult to get right up next to them.
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Re: Oldest painting discovered, and it's neanderthal

Postby brainpanhandler » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:08 pm

I can't help but imagine a shrooming neanderthal Michaelangelo painting his sistine chapel. I wonder if the cromags expunged the neanderthal art and that's why there are no examples of neanderthal cave paintings. And maybe that's why this one survives; they just couldn't get to it or maybe if you didn't know it was there you'd never see it or maybe they didn't dare mess with the mojo that created it.
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