Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:05 pm

Here's an article that touches on some relevant themes- and notice how it's based in verifiable documentation- you know, evidence...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/03/01/ ... apartheid/

March 01, 2012

Israel's Chutzpah
Using a Black Icon to Sell Apartheid
by SHERRY WOLF

Hucksters for Israel attempt to make up for in chutzpah what they lack in facts.

On opening night of the eighth annual Israeli Apartheid Week at NYU — at an event featuring Omar Barghouti and Noura Erakat, leading Palestinian figures in the boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) campaign — apologists for Israel’s crimes showcased one of their more curious myths. Defenders of Israel repeatedly argued in the Q & A section that America’s foremost Black icon, Martin Luther King Jr., was an arch defender of the Jewish state.

Let’s explore the evidence.

Pro-Israel Web sites, politicians and campus activists often reference the source of their claim about MLK’s defense of Israel by citing King’s “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend,” supposedly published in an August 1967 edition of the Saturday Review. Here’s the quote they cite:

“… You declare, my friend; that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely ‘anti-Zionist’ … And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God’s green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews… Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so.”

This quote even made its way into an excellent exposé of Israel’s deadly decades-long relationship with apartheid South Africa, Sasha Polakow-Suransky’s The Unspoken Alliance: Israel’s Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa. In fact, I repeated part of the quote in my own review of the book, much to my regret. Later I discovered that the MLK letter was a hoax.

Antiracist activist Tim Wise published an article on Znet in 2003, “Fraud Fit for a King,” in which he documents the fact that no such letter appears in any of the 1967 issues of the Saturday Review.

The alternative source provided by Zionists for this apparently nonexistent letter is a nonexistent book by King, This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. According to the authors of Electronic Intifada’s 2004 piece that further details this bamboozle, “Israel’s Apologists and the Martin Luther King Hoax”: ”No such book was listed in the bibliography provided by the King Center in Atlanta, nor in the catalogs of several large public and university libraries.”

Electronic Intifada goes on to discredit another “patchwork of plagiarism” attributed to King, this one by Dr. Andrew Bostom, a Brown University medical professor who wrote an article for Front Page Magazine in 2003 citing yet another fictitious quotation from King.

In fact the only credible statements made by King regarding Israel are recounted as hearsay in the San Francisco Chronicle by former civil rights activist, Congressman John Lewis. Lewis, who was friends with King, writes in his 2002 op-ed that a few days before MLK’s assassination in 1968 King defended Israel at an appearance at Harvard, saying, “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

Here again, stubborn facts get in the way. As the Harvard Crimson reported in April 1968, “The Rev. Martin Luther King was last in Cambridge almost exactly a year ago — April 23, 1967.”

Setting aside the pesky historical record of fabricated quotes from imaginary speeches and phantom texts, what if MLK really did support Israel back in 1968?

What if at a dinner in Cambridge, as has been suggested, King did defend Israel decades before the first and second intifadas, before the 1982 massacre at Sabra and Shatilla, before the construction of hundreds of miles of apartheid walls with militarized checkpoints, before Israel’s soldiers who killed 1,400 Palestinians in Operation Cast Lead were even born, before the murder of 9 unarmed civilians on the humanitarian aid flotilla and before contemporary, irrefutable documentation by human rights organizations of Israel’s racist apartheid practices?

If King did say or write anything to the effect that Lewis recounts, then King — who never claimed to be a Middle East scholar — was ill-informed. What’s more, he not only lived in an era before widespread exposure in the U.S. of Israel’s crimes, but he was organizing in the context of domestic disputes about multiracial, Black and Jewish organizing in the civil rights movement. Might he have had a totally separate question in mind when commenting on Jews and a Jewish state?

Notably, statements attributed to King about the Arab world go unremarked upon by Zionists. For example, this snippet also cited by Congressman Lewis: “At the same time the great powers have the obligation to recognize that the Arab world is in a state of imposed poverty and backwardness that must threaten peace and harmony.”

Surely the man who called the U.S. “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world” might be referring here to the American Empire, if not its Israeli vassal, as one of the entities imposing “poverty and backwardness” on the Arab world.

And finally, is it conceivable to any but the most blinkered defenders of Israel that MLK, who gave his life fighting inequality, would stand by a nation that has turned 69 percent of its indigenous population into refugees? No one but a craven ideologue for the indefensible would insist that King could cheer on Israel’s system of separation, discrimination and domination.

It appears that defending ethnic cleansing and Israel’s genocidal policies in the wake of Occupy and democratic Arab upheavals is not the cakewalk it once was. The question of justice for the world’s 11.2 million Palestinian people, according to latest census figures, is no longer the third rail of American politics among a growing swath of the population, including greater numbers of Jews. That some apologists have turned to fabricated quotes and pure slander of an icon to justify the unjustifiable is yet another sign that leading Zionists are desperate liars.

After all, they see the writing on the wall. Though Israel openly frets about the growing Palestinian population as a “demographic threat,” the rising numbers of Arab-Americans, Jews and others who are adhering to the spirit of King’s call for civil rights by joining together in the BDS movement are the real demographic threat to apartheid Israel.



Sherry Wolf is the author of Sexuality and Socialism. She blogs atSherry Talks Back.

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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:10 pm

barracuda wrote:
seemslikeadream wrote:I am not and never have been a holocaust denier....I am a believer in many many holocausts and would like to see fair treatment for every genocide committed on this planet.


That's great, but for every thread on this board about, for instance, the ongoing genocide and cultural extinction of TIbet by the PRC, we get five hundred threads about Israel.


I know I know I know


You never really get the smell of burning flesh out of your nose entirely.
--J.D. Salinger

I know my ancestry, I know where my DNA comes from, the smell is there. I am alive because of the courage of my great grandparents....all I ask is for people to realize there are so many holocausts.. to focus solely on one is to deny all others, and I get really pissed about that....and sometimes so much so that I don't express myself well.

my people have survived one holocaust just to be thrown into another....neither of which is M$M

my people did not die from eating potatos or lack there of....I understand holocaust denial, I know denial


and I DON"T need anyone here lecturing ME on denial or any anti-shit
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby slimmouse » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:19 pm

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Classic AD.

We already know what "they" do.

Who are they, and more importantly what should we call them ? I thought that was what this thread was about ?
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:21 pm

slimmouse wrote:

Icke believes that the Rothschilds are one facet of the spider. And since his books if anyone dare read them anymore, (given the AD cartoon show), are chocked full of evidence to support this claim based on years of research, then I aint gonna argue.

I did actually write about that. But deleted it, since in a five minute video its impossible to mention the years of facts and research in his books which lead Icke to reach those conclusions, and which by all apparent standards is off topic. Which is proabably why you went there.


Since Icke keeps coming up, I'd like to propose a little exercise:

I'm going to pick one conclusion that he presented in this video and I'd like you, slimmouse, to cite his source (from one of his books that you've mentioned) that backs it up.

"This hand, called The house of Rothschild, takes the money from the United States and hands it to this hand, called Israel of the House of Rothschild and says thank you very much."


That's it. Just show me the source Icke uses to validate the above statement.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Rory » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:22 pm

slimmouse wrote:
I did actually write about that. But deleted it, since in a five minute video its impossible to mention the years of facts and research in his books which lead Icke to reach those conclusions, and which by all apparent standards is off topic. Which is proabably why you went there.


A lot of supposition and shoehorning (they look like the aliens from 'V'??!)

CHAPTER TWO

“Don’t mention the reptiles”

Are you ready for this? I wish I didn’t have to introduce the following information because it complicates the story and opens me up to mass ridicule. But stuff it. If that is where the evidence takes me, that is where I shall go every time.

I don’t think the Anunnaki of the Sumerian Tablets and the white Martians proposed in Brian Desborough’s scenario are the same people, although there may well be a genetic connection between them. Putting together the mass of evidence, views, research and opinions, that I have read or heard almost daily these past years, I feel the Anunnaki are a race from a reptile genetic stream. In UFO research these have become known as reptilians. Nor am I alone in this view. I have personally been staggered by how many people today are open to these possibilities and, indeed, are coming to the same conclusions through their own research. These include many who would have laughed at the very idea not so long ago.

More at the link.


Edited by Bruce Dazzling for space considerations.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Simulist » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:41 pm

Bruce Dazzling wrote:
"This hand, called The house of Rothschild, takes the money from the United States and hands it to this hand, called Israel of the House of Rothschild and says thank you very much."


That's it. Just show me the source Icke uses to validate the above statement.

:popcorn:
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:45 pm

Weekend Edition April 4-6, 2008
0
Should the U.S. End Aid to Israel? Funding Our Decline
Funding Our Decline
by ALISON WEIR

April 1st I participated in a debate in San Francisco that raised the question of US aid to Israel.

It was highly appropriate that this debate was held two weeks before tax day, since in Israel’s sixty years of existence, it has received more US tax money than any other nation on earth.

During periods of recession, when Americans are thrown out of work, homes are repossessed, school budgets cut and businesses fail, Congress continues to give Israel massive amounts of our tax money; currently, about 7 million dollars per day.

On top of this, Egypt and Jordan receive large sums of money (per capita about 1/20th of what Israel receives) to buy their cooperation with Israel; and Palestinians also receive our tax money (about 1/23rd of that to Israel), to repair infrastructure that Israeli forces have destroyed, to fund humanitarian projects required due to the destruction wrought by Israel’s military, and to convince Palestinian officials to take actions beneficial to Israel. These sums should also be included in expenditures on behalf of Israel.

When all are added together, it turns out that for many years over half of all US tax money abroad has been expended to benefit a country the size of New Jersey.

It is certainly time to begin debating this disbursement of our hard-earned money. It is quite possible that we have better uses for it.

To decide whether the US should continue military aid to any nation, it is essential to examine the nature and history of the recipient nation, how it has used our military aid in the past, whether these uses are in accord with our values, and whether they benefit the American taxpayers who are putting up the money.

1. What is the history and nature of Israel?

Describing Israel is always difficult. One can either stay within the mainstream paradigm, or tell the truth. I will opt for the truth.

Drawing on scores of books by diverse authors, the facts are quite clear: Israel was created through one of the most massive, ruthless, and persistent ethnic cleansing operations of modern history. In 1947-49 about three-quarters of a million Muslims and Christians, who had originally made up 95 percent of the population living in the area that Zionists wanted for a Jewish state, were brutally forced off their ancestral land. There were 33 massacres, over 500 villages were completely destroyed, and an effort was made to erase all vestiges of Palestinian history and culture.

The fact is that Israel’s core identity is based on ethnic and religious discrimination by a colonial, immigrant group; and maintaining this exclusionist identity has required continued violence against those it has dispossessed, and others who have given them refuge.

2. How has Israel used our military aid in the past?

In all of its wars except one, Israel has attacked first.

In violation of the Arms Export Control Act, which requires that US weapons only be used in "legitimate self defense," Israel used American equipment during its two invasions of Lebanon, killing 17,000 the first time and 1,000 more recently, the vast majority civilians. It used American-made cluster bombs in both invasions, again in defiance of US laws, causing the "most hideous injuries" one American physician said she had ever seen, and which, in one day in 1982 alone, resulted in the amputation of over 1,000 mangled limbs.

It has used US military aid to continue and expand its illegal confiscation of land in the West Bank and Golan Heights, and has used American F-16s and Apache Helicopters against largely unarmed civilian populations.

According to Defence for Children International, Israel has "engaged in gross violations of international human rights and humanitarian law." Between 1967 and 2003, Israel destroyed more than 10,000 homes, and such destruction continues today. A coalition of UK human rights groups recently issued a report stating that Israel’s blockade of Gaza is collective punishment of 1.5 million people, warning: "Unless the blockade ends now, it will be impossible to pull Gaza back from the brink of this disaster and any hopes for peace in the region will be dashed."

In addition, Israel uses US military aid to fund an Israeli arms industry that competes with US companies. According to a report commissioned by the US Army War College, "Israel uses roughly 40 percent of its military aid, ostensibly earmarked for purchase of US weapons, to buy Israeli-made hardware. It also has won the right to require the Defense Department or US defense contractors to buy Israeli-made equipment or subsystems, paying 50 to 60 cents on every defense dollar the US gives to Israel."

Israel has used US aid to kill and injure nonviolent Palestinian, American and international activists, as well as American servicemen. Israeli soldiers in an American-made Caterpillar bulldozer crushed to death 23-year-old Rachel Corrie; an Israeli sniper shot 21-year-old Tom Hurndall in the head; Israeli soldiers shot 26-year-old Brian Avery in the face. In 1967 Israel used US-financed French aircraft to attack a US Navy ship, killing 34 American servicemen and injuring 174.

Israel has used US aid to imprison without trial thousands of Palestinians and others, and according to reports by the London Times and Amnesty International, Israel consistently tortures prisoners; including, according to Foreign Service Journal, American citizens.

3. Are these uses in accord with our national and personal values?

Not in my view.

4. Do these uses of US aid benefit American taxpayers?

While some Israeli actions have served US interests, the balance sheet is clear: Israel’s use of American aid consistently damages the United States, harms our economy, and endangers Americans.

In fact, this extremely negative outcome was so predictable that even before Israel’s creation virtually all State Department and Pentagon experts advocated forcefully against supporting the creation of a Zionist state in the Middle East. President Harry Truman’s reply: "I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents."

Through the years, as noted above, our aid to Israel has not resulted in a reliable ally.

In 1954 Israel tried to bomb US government offices in Egypt, intending to pin this on Muslims.

In 1963 Senator William Fulbright discovered that Israel was using a series of covert operations to funnel our money to pro-Israel groups in the US, which then used these funds in media campaigns and lobbying to procure even more money from American taxpayers.

In 1967 Israeli forces unleashed a two-hour air and sea attack against the USS Liberty, causing 200 casualties. While Israel partisans claim that this was done in error, this claim is belied by extensive eyewitness evidence and by an independent commission reporting on Capitol Hill in 2003 chaired by former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer.

In 1973 Israel used the largest airlift of US materiel in history to defeat Arab forces attempting to regain their own land, triggering the Arab oil embargo that sent the US into a recession that cost thousands of Americans their jobs.

During its 1980s Lebanon invasion, Israeli troops engaged in a systematic pattern of harassment of US forces brought in as peacekeepers that created, according to Commandant of Marines Gen. R. H Barrow, "life-threatening situations, replete with verbal degradation of the officers, their uniform and country."

Through the years, Israel has regularly spied on the US. According to the Government Accounting Office, Israel "conducts the most aggressive espionage operations against the United States of any ally." Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger said of Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard: "It is difficult for me to conceive of greater harm done to national security," And the Pollard case was just the tip of a very large iceberg; the most recent operation coming to light involves two senior officials of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Israel’s powerful American lobbying organization.

Bad as the above may appear, it pales next to the indirect damage to Americans caused by our aid to Israel. American funding of Israel’s egregious violations of Palestinian human rights is consistently listed as the number one cause of hostility to Americans.

While American media regularly cover up Israeli actions, those of us who have visited the region first-hand witness a level of US-funded Israeli cruelty that makes us weep for our victims and fear for our country. While most Americans are uninformed on how Israel uses our money, people throughout the world are deeply aware that it is Americans who are funding Israeli crimes.

The 9/11 Commission notes that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s "animus towards the United States stemmedfrom his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel." The Economist reports that " the notion of payback for injustices suffered by the Palestinians is perhaps the most powerfully recurrent theme in bin Laden’s speeches."

The Bottom Line

In sum, US aid to Israel has destabilized the Middle East; propped up a national system based on ethnic and religious discrimination; enabled unchecked aggression that has, on occasion, been turned against Americans themselves; funded arms industries that compete with American companies; supported a pattern of brutal dispossession that has created hatred of the US; and resulted in continuing conflict that last year took the lives of 384 Palestinians and 13 Israelis, and that in the past seven and a half years has cost the lives of more than 982 Palestinian children and 119 Israeli children.

By providing massive funding to Israel, no matter what it does, American aid is empowering Israeli supremacists who believe in a never-ending campaign of ethnic cleansing; while disempowering Israelis who recognize that policies of morality, justice, and rationality are the only road to peace.

It is time to end our aid.

ALISON WEIR is Executive Director of If Americans Knew. For more information on the US-Israel relationship she especially recommends the books by Donald Neff, Paul Findley, Kathleen Christison, Stephen Walt, John Mearsheimer, Grant Smith, Stephen Green, George Ball, and John Mulhall.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:52 pm

Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:54 pm

While we're all waiting for some evidence on "Rothschild Zionism", here's a group in Britain that's actually trying to do something concrete to make things better. They will have no truck with talk of "zionazis", or "ZOG" though- much less "Rothschild Zionism"- after all it was the Green Party which put David Icke out on his ass!

http://www.bdsmovement.net/2012/israel- ... _DB3lqQqA/

Image


Israel ‘charity’ accused of racism suffers another blow

Posted on February 28, 2012 by Stop the JNF campaign

The Jewish National Fund (JNF), a British charity implicated in human rights violations in Israel, received yet another blow when Green Party of England and Wales members voted overwhelmingly to support an international call for action against JNF practices in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and to revoke its charity status in the UK.

Green Party member Deborah Fink, who is co-founder of Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods, moved the motion on Sunday. Fink alerted the conference to “JNF greenwash” and said that “the Green Party stands for environmental and social justice, the upholding of human rights, is against racism and is officially in solidarity with the Palestinian people who have called for this campaign. The JNF is a major impediment to realisation of Green Party policy on the Middle East, therefore the JNF should be condemned. As a charity, the JNF gets tax advantages, so through our taxes, we are subsidising injustice”. The motion passed with no one speaking in opposition and with only three people voting against.

The Green Party endorsement of the Stop the JNF Campaigns comes after similar motions were passed last year by the Scottish Green Party and Scottish Friends of the Earth, all repudiating the JNF’s claim to be an “environmental charity”. The JNF is known for establishing forests and parks over the remains of destroyed Palestinian villages. Last year the JNF lost high level political protection when David Cameron resigned as Honorary Patron, the first time in its 111 year history the serving British Prime Minister does not hold this position. Equally unprecedentedly, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg declined the JNF’s request to become Patrons when they became leaders of their parties.

Terry Gallogly, Green Party member and an organiser of the Stop the JNF Campaign in the UK, welcomed the decision this weekend,

“Our government has stood by for over sixty years doing nothing, or directly complicit in Israel’s violations of Palestinian rights. The JNF is a key tool of Israeli apartheid and ethnic cleansing, operating as a para-statal organisation with powers over land administration.

“This decision, along with similar positions already taken by civil society organisations such as the Iona Community and trade unions, is a message to the JNF that their days are numbered – we won’t tolerate their abuse of charity status in the UK to fund a system of land theft and racism against Palestinians.”


Campaigners believe that another sign of the JNF’s increasing difficulty is the sixty-four MPs who have signed an Early Day Motion stating there is just cause to consider the revocation of the JNF’s charitable status.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby slimmouse » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:57 pm

Bruce Dazzling wrote:
slimmouse wrote:

Icke believes that the Rothschilds are one facet of the spider. And since his books if anyone dare read them anymore, (given the AD cartoon show), are chocked full of evidence to support this claim based on years of research, then I aint gonna argue.

I did actually write about that. But deleted it, since in a five minute video its impossible to mention the years of facts and research in his books which lead Icke to reach those conclusions, and which by all apparent standards is off topic. Which is proabably why you went there.


Since Icke keeps coming up, I'd like to propose a little exercise:

I'm going to pick one conclusion that he presented in this video and I'd like you, slimmouse, to cite his source (from one of his books that you've mentioned) that backs it up.

"This hand, called The house of Rothschild, takes the money from the United States and hands it to this hand, called Israel of the House of Rothschild and says thank you very much."


That's it. Just show me the source Icke uses to validate the above statement.


OK bruce. You show me who hands over the money and who recieves it, and what form it takes ?. Show me how these decisions to hand over the money are arrived at, and who funds those making the decisions ?

I can offer you all the evidence you like for what happens to those who dont approve it. Thats as much proof as I need.

IM sure we can distill it down with your help.

And if you cant be arsed with all of that, dont complain at what Icke has written about for years, based on years of research, without reading some first.

I have a pretty good Idea how it works, and Ive got a pretty good Idea Ickes on the money.

AD or Icke LOL !!!
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Simulist » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:02 pm

slimmouse wrote:
Bruce Dazzling wrote:
slimmouse wrote:

Icke believes that the Rothschilds are one facet of the spider. And since his books if anyone dare read them anymore, (given the AD cartoon show), are chocked full of evidence to support this claim based on years of research, then I aint gonna argue.

I did actually write about that. But deleted it, since in a five minute video its impossible to mention the years of facts and research in his books which lead Icke to reach those conclusions, and which by all apparent standards is off topic. Which is proabably why you went there.


Since Icke keeps coming up, I'd like to propose a little exercise:

I'm going to pick one conclusion that he presented in this video and I'd like you, slimmouse, to cite his source (from one of his books that you've mentioned) that backs it up.

"This hand, called The house of Rothschild, takes the money from the United States and hands it to this hand, called Israel of the House of Rothschild and says thank you very much."


That's it. Just show me the source Icke uses to validate the above statement.


OK bruce. You show me who hands over the money and who recieves it, and what form it takes. Show me how these decisions to hand over the money are arrived at, and who funds those making the decisions ?

IM sure we can distill it down with your help.

And if you cant be arsed with all of that, dont complain at what Icke has written about for years, based on years of research, without reading some first.

I have a pretty good Idea how it works, and Ive got a pretty good Idea Ickes on the money.

You're not going to answer even that single simple question, Slim?
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby slimmouse » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:06 pm

Simulist wrote:You're not going to answer even that single simple question, Slim?


Well if you want a simple explanation, which is clearly what the likes of you folks need. The money is raised courtesy of bent politicians, elected into power, bought and paid for by people duped into believing that the Israel cause is a worthy fight.

Anyone "not worthy" is denied funding and media access. Those things crucial to a duped American public electing the duped morally bankrupt cowards that fight their corner

Are you with me so far ?

Im sure you can check the numbers, and then read some David Icke as to how all this madness works.

What should we call them ?
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby Simulist » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:08 pm

slimmouse wrote:
Simulist wrote:You're not going to answer even that single simple question, Slim?


Well if you want a simple explanation, which is clearly what the likes of you folks need. The money is raised courtesy of bent politicians, elected into power, bought and paid for by people duped into believing that the Israel cause is a worthy fight.

Im sure you can check the numbers, and then read some David Icke as to how all this madness works.

What should we call them ?

No, his question was the source of the quote.

You're still not answering the question. Please do.

If you can. Or if you will.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby American Dream » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:10 pm

While we all wait with bated breath, I'd like to return to this:

barracuda wrote:
psynapz wrote:The other takeaway from that, which I guess I never truly concretized intellectually at a distance from studying daily politics, is that failing to make the distinction between Israeli and Zionist is a failure to overcome incredibly well-funded, actively-perpetrated mass mind control. A point that's as obvious here as it is important to reiterate anywhere, even here. Although I tend to assume around here that "Israel" + [negative statement] = criticism of "Zionism", not "anti-semitic".


Thanks for returning to the topic. Is it possible in this context to support Israel as a geo-political entity without being considered a zionist or zionist enabler? This goes back to the basic question of whether or not Israel ought to exist at all, in any form, a question which I doubt many here would be interested in addressing sincerely, fraught as it is with just the semantic landmines that AIPAC, et al. depend upon for their suppression of discussion.


I think this is a very important piece which intelligently and with real principle addresses some of the issues at hand:

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2012/ga280212.html


Not Quite "Ordinary Human Beings" --
Anti-Imperialism and the Anti-Humanist Rhetoric of Gilad Atzmon


Attempting to latch onto the just, vital, and growing movement in support of the Palestinian national liberation struggle, Gilad Atzmon is one of a very small and unrepresentative group of writers who have argued (in agreement with many Zionists) that there is no meaningful distinction to be made between Jews in general and Israeli atrocities. According to Atzmon, the latter are simply a manifestation of Jews' historic relationship to gentiles, an authentic expression of an essentially racist, immoral, and anti-human "Jewish ideology."

Atzmon's statements, besides distorting the history of Jews and constituting a brazen justification for centuries of anti-Jewish behavior and beliefs, also downgrade anti-Zionism to a mere front in the broader (anti-Jewish) struggle. Atzmon has specifically described Zionism not as a form of colonialism or settlerism, but as a uniquely evil ideology unlike anything else in human history. In addition to any ethical problems, this line of argumentation actually strengthens Zionism's grip and claim to be the authentic representative of Jews. It obscures the reality that Zionism is an imperialist and colonialist enemy of Jewish people and Palestinians, as well as the Arab people generally and all those oppressed and exploited by imperialism.

In his online attack on Moshe Machover, an Israeli socialist and founder of the anti-Zionist group Matzpen, Atzmon states:

Machover's reading of Zionism is pretty trivial. "Israel," he says, is a "settler state." For Machover this is a necessary point of departure because it sets Zionism as a colonialist expansionist project. The reasoning behind such a lame intellectual spin is obvious. As long as Zionism is conveyed as a colonial project, Jews, as a people, should be seen as ordinary people. They are no different from the French and the English, they just happen to run their deadly colonial project in a different time.1

For Atzmon, such views are "pretty trivial" and "lame" because he holds that Jews are in fact radically different from the French and the English. Of the many quotes we could provide in this regard, here is a small sampling:2

In order to understand Israel's unique condition we must ask, "who are the Jews? What is Judaism and what is Jewishness?"3

Zionism is a continuation of Jewish ideology.4

The never-ending robbery of Palestine by Israel in the name of the Jewish people establishes a devastating spiritual, ideological, cultural and, obviously, practical continuum between the Judaic Bible and the Zionist project. The crux of the matter is simple yet disturbing: Israel and Zionism are both successful political systems that put into devastating practice the plunder promised by the Judaic God in the Judaic holy scriptures.5

Sadly, we have to admit that hate-ridden plunder of other people's possessions made it into the Jewish political discourse both on the left and right. The Jewish nationalist would rob Palestine in the name of the right of self-determination, the Jewish progressive is there to rob the ruling class and even international capital in the name of world working class revolution.6

Were Jewish Marxists and cosmopolitans open to the notion of brotherhood, they would have given up on their unique, exclusive banners and become ordinary human beings like the rest of us.7

I do not consider the Jews to be a race, and yet it is obvious that "Jewishness" clearly involves an ethno-centric and racially supremacist, exclusivist point of view that is based on a sense of Jewish "chosen-ness."8

At the most, Israel has managed to mimic some of the appearances of a Western civilisation, but it has clearly failed to internalise the meaning of tolerance and freedom. This should not take us by surprise: Israel defines itself as a Jewish state, and Jewishness is, sadly enough, inherently intolerant; indeed, it may be argued that Jewish intolerance is as old as the Jews themselves.9

Israel and Zionism then, has proved to be a short lived dream. It was initiated to civilise Jewish life, and to dismantle the Jewish self-destructive mode. It was there to move the Jew into the post-herem10 phase. It vowed to make the Jew into a productive being. But as things turned out, neither the Zionists nor the "anti Zionists" managed to drift away from the disastrous herem culture. It seems that the entire world of Jewish identity politics is a matrix of herems and exclusion strategies. In order to be "a proper Jew," all you have to do is to point out whom you oppose, hate, exclude or boycott.11


The conclusion to such views is not difficult to draw:

The endless trail of Jewish collective tragedies is there to teach us that Jews always pay eventually (and heavily) for Jewish power exercises. Yet, surprisingly (and tragically) enough, Jews somehow consistently fail to internalise and learn from that very lesson.12

More precisely, commenting on the climax of State violence directed at Jews in the 1930s, most famously by Germany, but also in most other European nations, Atzmon is clear:

The remarkable fact is they don't understand why the world is beginning to stand against them in the same way they didn't understand why the Europeans stood against them in the 1930s. Instead of asking why we are hated they continue to toss accusations on others.13

Within the discourse of Jewish politics and history there is no room for causality. There is no such a thing as a former and a latter. Within the Jewish tribal discourse every narrative starts to evolve when Jewish pain establishes itself. This obviously explains why Israelis and some Jews around the world can only think as far as "two state solution" within the framework of 1967 borders. It also explains why for most Jews the history of the holocaust starts in the gas chambers or with the rise of the Nazis. I have hardly seen any Israelis or Jews attempt to understand the circumstances that led to the clear resentment of Europeans towards their Jewish neighbors in the 1920's-40's.14


It is, as such, not surprising that Atzmon's work has received enthusiastic reviews by such prominent members of the racist right as former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, Kevin MacDonald of the Occidental Observer, David Icke, and Arthur Topham's the Radical Press. It should not be surprising that Atzmon has distributed articles defending Holocaust deniers and those who write of "the Hitler we loved and why."15 These connections ultimately serve the interests of Zionism, which seeks to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Jewishness. Zionist agents have repeatedly attempted to ensnare and link Palestinian, Arab, and/or Muslim rights advocates to Neo-Nazism, through dirty tricks and outright lies.

It is more surprising and disappointing, then, that a small section of the left has opted to promote Atzmon and his works. In the UK, the Socialist Workers Party promoted Atzmon for several years16 before finally breaking with him; his latest book The Wandering Who? has been published by the left-wing Zero Books (a decision that elicited a letter of protest from several Zero authors).17 In the United States, the widely-read Counterpunch website has repeatedly chosen to run articles by Atzmon. Currently, in February and March 2012, Atzmon is on tour in North America, where several of his speaking engagements are being organized by progressive anti-imperialists whom we would normally like to consider our allies.

While perhaps well-meaning, operating under the assumption that any opposition to Zionism is to be welcomed, progressives who promote the work of Atzmon are in fact surrendering the moral high ground by encouraging a belief-system that simply mirrors that of the most racist section of Israeli society. Anti-racism is not a liability; on the contrary, it is a principle that makes our movements stronger in the long fight for a better tomorrow.

As political activists committed to resisting colonialism and imperialism -- in North America and around the world -- we recognize that there can be different interpretations of history, and we welcome exploring these. Without wishing to debate the question of whether far-right and racist ideologues should be censored, or how, we see no reason for progressive people to organize events to promote their works.

In our struggle against Zionism, racism, and all forms of colonialism and imperialism, there is no place for anti-Semitism or the vilification of Jews, Palestinians, or any people based on their religions, cultures, nationalities, ethnicity, or history. At this historic junction -- when the need to struggle for the liberation of Palestine is more vital than ever and the fault lines of capitalist empire are becoming more widely exposed -- no anti-oppressive revolution can be built with ultra-right allies or upon foundations friendly to creeping fascism.



1 Gilad Atzmon, "Tribal Marxism for Dummies," originally published in June 2009, republished on his Web site on April 24, 2011.

2 Many more quotes like these could be provided, but we assume this is enough to show that these are not out-of-context or out-of-character remarks. If not, readers may wish to peruse the section of Atzmon's website on "Jewishness" at <www.gilad.co.uk/writings/category/jewishness>.

3 Gilad Atzmon, "Tribal Marxism for Dummies," Atlantic Free Press, July 2, 2009.

4 Anayat Durrani, "Exposing Dangerous Myths," Interview with Gilad Atzmon, originally published in Al-Ahram Weekly (May 19-25, 2011), republished on Atzmon's Web site on May 19, 2011.

5 Gilad Atzmon, "Swindler's List: Zionist Plunder and the Judaic Bible," Redress Information & Analysis, April 5, 2008.

6 Ibid.

7 Ibid.

8 Gilad Atzmon, "An Interesting Exchange With A Jewish Anti Zionist," Atzmon's Web site, August 17, 2011.

9 Gilad Atzmon, "The Herem Law in the context of Jewish Past and Present," Atzmon's Web site, July 16, 2011.

10 "Herem" is a Hebrew word that refers to banning or excluding someone; it is also the name of the repressive legislation Israel recently passed to enable punitive lawsuits against those calling for a boycott of the apartheid state. For Atzmon, this law is just one more example of Zionism's Jewish uniqueness (guess he never heard of SLAPPs), as he concludes that "this is what Jews do best: destroying, excluding, excommunicating, silencing, boycotting, sanctioning. After all, Jews have been doing this for centuries."

11 Ibid.

12 Gilad Atzmon, "A Warning From The Past," Atzmon's Web site, May 26, 2011.

13 Quoted in Shabana Syed, "Time for World to Confront Israel: Gilad Atzmon," Arab News, June 14, 2010.

14 Gilad Atzmon, "Jewish Ideology and World Peace," Atzmon's Web site, June 7, 2010.

15 "Gilad Atzmon, the SWP and Holocaust Denial," BobFromBrockley, June 13, 2005.

16 "Gilad Atzmon and the SWP: a Brief Chronology," BobFromBrockley, October 5, 2011.

17 "Zero Authors' Statement on Gilad Atzmon," Lenin's Tomb, September 26, 2011.



As'ad AbuKhalil, The Angry Arab News Service, Turlock CA
Max Ajl, essayist, rabble-rouser, proprietor of Jewbonics blog site, Ithaca NY
Electa Arenal, professor emerita, CUNY Graduate Center/Hispanic & Luso-Brazilian Literatures and Women's Studies, New York NY
Gabriel Ash, International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, Geneva, SWITZERLAND
Dan Berger, Wild Poppies Collective, Philadelphia PA
Lenni Brenner, author, Zionism in the Age of the Dictator, New York NY
Susie Day, Monthly Review, New York NY
Todd Eaton, Park Slope Food Coop Members for Boycott/Divestment/Sanctions, Brooklyn NY
S. EtShalom, Registered Nurse, Philadelphia PA
Sherna Berger Gluck, Prof. Emerita, California State University/Israel Divestment Campaign, CA
Andrew Griggs, Café Intifada, Los Angeles CA
Ken Hiebert, activist, Ladysmith, Canada
Elizabeth Horowitz, solidarity activist, New York NY
Karl Kersplebedeb, Left Wing Books, Montreal, CANADA
Mark Klein, activist, Toronto, CANADA
Mark Lance, Georgetown University/Institute for Anarchist Studies, Washington DC
David Landy, author, Jewish Identity and Palestinian Rights: Diaspora Jewish Opposition to Israel, Dublin, IRELAND
Bob Lederer, Pacifica/WBAI producer, Queers Against Israeli Apartheid, New York NY
Matthew Lyons, Three Way Fight, Philadelphia PA
Karen MacRae, solidarity activist, Toronto, CANADA
Marvin Mandell and Betty Reid Mandell, co-editors, New Politics, West Roxbury MA
Matt Meyer, Resistance in Brooklyn, New York NY
Michael Novick, People Against Racist Terror/Anti-Racist Action, Los Angeles CA
Sylvia Posadas (Jinjirrie), Kadaitcha.com, Don't Play Apartheid Israel, Noosa, AUSTRALIA
Roland Rance, Jews Against Zionism, London, UK
Liz Roberts, War Resisters League, New York NY
Emma Rosenthal, contributor, Shifting Sands: Jewish Women Confront the Israeli Occupation, Los Angeles CA
Ian Saville, performer and lecturer, London, UK
Joel Schwartz, CSEA Local 446, AFSCME, New York NY
Simona Sharoni, SUNY, author, Gender & the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, Plattsburgh NY
Abraham Weizfeld, author, The End of Zionism and the liberation of the Jewish People, Montreal, CANADA
Laura Whitehorn, former political prisoner, NYS Task Force on Political Prisoners, New York NY
Ben White, author, Palestinians in Israel: Segregation, Discrimination, and Democracy, Cambridge, UK

List in formation
Organizations Listed for Identification Purposes Only

Contact us at: <antiracistantizionist@yahoo.com>.
Last edited by American Dream on Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up

Postby slimmouse » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:13 pm

Simulist wrote:
slimmouse wrote:
Simulist wrote:You're not going to answer even that single simple question, Slim?


Well if you want a simple explanation, which is clearly what the likes of you folks need. The money is raised courtesy of bent politicians, elected into power, bought and paid for by people duped into believing that the Israel cause is a worthy fight.

Im sure you can check the numbers, and then read some David Icke as to how all this madness works.

What should we call them ?

No, his question was the source of the quote.

You're still not answering the question. Please do.

If you can. Or if you will.


Well I always got the impression it was his own. But please enlighten me. And if its not true, kindly detail why ?

And in the interests of staying on topic, what should we call them ?

You got a vague cliched label for us too ?
Last edited by slimmouse on Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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