Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Plutonia » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:38 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:
Plutonia wrote:And it's actually pretty easy to tell if someone is being not "in good faith" I think, no matter what words are coming out of their mouths.


Is it? For an aspie, I mean. Isn't it the whole hallmark of Aspergers that one with the condition cannot read faces/emotions? How have you learned to cope? For example, how can you tell through the fog of Aspergers just when someone is in good faith - especially when the person is represented on video?

I think most people can be manipulated into thinking someone is being sincere when s/he is not, and vice versa. or maybe not even manipulated but just... make a mistake.

I'm more of an Autie (right brain dominant) than an Aspie (left brain dominant) CW. One of the misconceptions about us spectrum folks is that we are insensitive, but that's just a neurotypical bias, a misunderstanding. Actually it's kind of a joke within the spectrum community.

I've been hyper-sensitive all my life though increasingly less so as I get older. When I was a kid I had great difficulty understanding what adults said because, from my perspective, they were expressing so much more than just the actual words they were saying - body language, tone, inflection, other unconscious stuff - and a lot of it contradictory. Faced with too much information to consider, I would often be at a loss for how to respond and would just stare blankly with my brain whirring away trying to figure it out. So a fog, yeah, but one of a plethora, rather than absence.

So how did I learn to cope? School of life just like everyone else. And self-examination - not so much like everyone else. At some point I learned to ignore most of what people express when they are talking.

I think most people allow themselves to be fooled by others and here's one reason why: It's kind of built into the social compact to take other people at face value (odd phrase that) and there's a subtle social pressure that enforces it - I've run into that more than once dammit! It's considered rude. It seems like a inbuilt tribal instinct, but maybe it's just fear of being confrontational. I dunno.

Anyway, in the case of good or bad faith, all you have to do is stop listening to what someone is saying (spoken words tend to confound more subtle perceptions) and just observe. Over a bit of time, the self contradictions of a bad faith actor become legible.

As for mistakes, those are a given lol!

Hope that answers your Q.
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Plutonia » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:57 am

Also, CW, here's some tips from Occupy Together:

Drawing from several sources, experienced observers have suggested some tips for identifying such agents. They’re not foolproof, but they’re a start.

Agents will often lack background connections or references. No one in your circles or related groups will know them.
Agents try to keep discussions and action unproductive and still. They’ll spend plenty of time debating issues, with little action. They focus on ideas over people.
They tend to create messes in groups and between group members. They leave chaos in their wake.
They tend to gravitate toward people in the group who are dissatisfied. Once relationships with those folks grow, the dissatisfaction spreads.
Some agents have been former prisoners who do this work as part of a deal. These folks tend to jump from organization to organization in a relatively short time.
Agents don’t have known sources of income. They might have a job that doesn’t match their spending or claim their money comes from prior savings.
They tend to provide gifts for key figures at first. This helps them build trust with the group.
When confronted, they will get defensive and start making their own accusations.
They act like zealots, but they don’t have the fruit of it. They have passion but don’t truly care.

Of course, good but immature people can do all these things. Discernment involves sound judgment calls. Protection from agent provocateurs increases as your group matures. If your group has rich relationships and trust, you won’t as easily fall prey to cheap provocateurs.

http://howtocamp.takethesquare.net/2011 ... rovocateu/
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Canadian_watcher » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:57 am

^ thank you Plut, for both answers.

it's a tricky business with or without Autism or Aspergers. (sorry for forgetting which and where on the spectrum you fall). Most of what you describe, in my opinion, would describe the experience of most people, I think. Although I haven't really learned how to tune out the baggage that goes along with words. I'm pretty focused on expression, body-language, etc and sometimes online that makes it very, very difficult for me to communicate effectively. (I know I'm not alone in that.)

That OWS 'tips' quote, above, is kind of depressing. It sounds terrible when read alone like it has been presented. Very cold and paranoid, particularly point #1. Still, a movement's gotta do what a movement's gotta do.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Plutonia » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:02 pm

np, CW :tiphat:

Oh, and it's possible to re-frame infiltrators as refining agents - like sand in a tumble, they help us get polished up, that way you wont lose heart.

Okay,

:backtotopic:
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:40 pm

Superb: http://interactivist.autonomedia.org/node/33609

Psynapz was questioning my questioning stance toward the General Assembly system and I recommended cells -- affinity groups -- based on their track record, both personally and historically. FWIW, I came by my cynicism very honestly, having grown up a "youth activist" with a focus on environmental causes. A recipe for burnout, for sure, but in the end I can only blame my own arrogance.

Anyways, ahem:

Occupy to Self Manage
By Michael Albert

I have yet to see my nearest large occupation, Boston, or the precursor of all U.S. occupations, Wall Street. Instead, I have been on the road for the past six weeks in Thesselonika and Athens Greece; Istanbul and Diyarbikar Turkey; Lexington, Kentucky; London, England; Dublin, Ireland; and in Barcelona, Madrid, and Valencia Spain.

In all these places, I talked with diverse individuals at many meetings and popular assemblies. I met people involved in occupations, as well as audiences assembled by my hosts to hear about participatory economics. Beyond addressing assigned topics, my own priority was to learn about local movements. I repeatedly asked what folks struggling for many months wished to say to other folks first embarking on similar paths.

Boredom, Disempowerment, and Consensus Obstruct Growth
In Greece and Spain, a single message predominated. It had nothing to do with analyses of capitalism or other analytic focuses. Instead, Greek and Spanish activists reported that they had massive assemblies in widespread cities and their occupations grew, grew, grew, so that assemblies were up to 12,000, 15,000 - and then they shrunk, shrunk, shrunk, so that assemblies are now not meeting, or are meeting in the hundreds, or less.

Yet I heard, time after time, that nothing had diminished regarding the population’s rejection of unfolding injustices. The people remain fed up in huge numbers and still turn out massively for demonstrations, marches, and strikes. So why were most people who were rallying and marching no longer assembling? The reply I heard at every stop was that the decline of the assemblies wasn’t due to repression, or to people being co-opted, or to people being tricked or saddened by media distortion or dismissal. In fact, the assemblies shrinking wasn’t due to anything anyone else did to the assemblies, or said about them, or didn’t do to them, or didn’t say about them, activists repeatedly reported. Instead, they told me, the problem emanated from within.

For example, Greek and Spanish activists said that at assemblies initially people spoke with incredible passion of their plights and desires. Their voices often broke. Their hands shook. Each time someone rose to speak, something real, passionate, and persistent happened. It was enchanting and exciting. People were learning not only new facts and interpretations - and, indeed, that kind of learning was relatively modest - they were also learning new confidence and new modes of engaging with others. But after days and then weeks, the flavor of the talks shifted. From being new folks speaking passionately and recounting their reasons for being present and their hopes for their future by delivering deeply felt and quite unique stories, the speakers shifted toward being more seasoned or habituated folks, who lectured attendees with prepackaged views. The lines of speakers became overwhelmingly male. Their deliveries became overwhelmingly rehearsed. Listening to robotic repetition and frequent predictable and almost text-like ranting got boring and alienating. Sometimes it was even demeaning.

At the same time, new people, who were still far more prevalent, didn’t know what to do while they were occupying. We could assemble, they reported. We could talk and engage with each other. We could listen to others and sometimes debate a bit - the Greek and Spanish Assemblers reported - but, how long could we do that and feel it was worth the time we had to spend away from our families, friends, and jobs, not to mention from rooms with a roof?

As they first formed, the assemblies were invigorating and uplifting. We were creating a new community, I was told. We were making new friends. We were hearing from new people. We were enjoying an environment where dissent was the norm. But as days passed, and then weeks, it got too familiar. And it wasn’t obvious to folks what more they could do. There weren’t tasks to undertake. We weren’t being born anymore, we were dying. It was hard. For many it was impossible to keep learning and keep contributing. There was a will, but there was not a way. Folks didn’t have meaningful things to do that made them feel part of a worthy project. We felt, in time, only part of a mass of people.

After a time, many asked, why should I stay and listen to boring talks? Why should I be hugely uncomfortable and cut off from family and work, if I have nothing to do that is constructive, nothing that is empowering, nothing that furthers worthy aims? And so people started to attend less, and then to leave.

Another factor that was initially exciting but later became tedious, was seeking consensus. At first it was novel. It implied trust, which felt good. It implied shared intentions, which felt inspiring. But after awhile, seeking consensus became tortured, a time waster, and its reason for being the only decision making approach became steadily less compelling.

Why can’t we arrive at decisions which some people do not like and don’t even want to participate in? Why can’t we arrive at decisions, and have a strong minority that dissents, and then respect that minority, and even have it pursue other possibilities to see their worth? Why do we allow some small group to cause discussions to continue without end, turning off many from relating when the small group has no legitimate claim to greater influence than anyone else - save that our mode of decision making gives them a veto?

Folks recounted all these dynamics very graphically and movingly. No one said that people stopped participating in assemblies because of fear or the cops or depression over the newspapers. No one said people left because they had developed doubts about protest or resistance, much less about the condition of society. Instead, everyone I spoke with, and it was a lot of very committed people, told me participants left due to lacking good reasons to stay. The bottom line was that the assemblies got tedious and, ironically, even disempowering. Folks wondered, why must I be here every day and every night? The thought nagged. It led to legions moving on.


The piece continues and is, I feel, a very important contribution to #Occupy theory, so here's that link again: http://interactivist.autonomedia.org/node/33609
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby wintler2 » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:43 pm

Occupy to Self Manage
By Michael Albert


It is superb, thanks W, medal for Mr Albert for useful research.

My instant [and very partial] summary of what was in rest of article: make common cause with newbies, discover the real local needs, and proliferate occupations in strategic ways according to those needs. i.e. move from symbolic to material action. Loving materialism is the new black.
"Wintler2, you are a disgusting example of a human being, the worst kind in existence on God's Earth. This is not just my personal judgement.." BenD

Research question: are all god botherers authoritarians?
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Hammer of Los » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:14 pm

what_is_a_Wintler_anyway? wrote:My instant [and very partial] summary of what was in rest of article: make common cause with newbies, discover the real local needs, and proliferate occupations in strategic ways according to those needs. i.e. move from symbolic to material action. Loving materialism is the new black.


That sounds good wintler2.

I loved your slogan too. "The Evolution will not be Terrorised!"

Brilliant! Put it on a T Shirt. I will buy one from you! I will buy many! Paypal okay?

Please let us agree. When we come together and agree with good intent toward all, the miracles can happen, and we cannot fail. Then the clear truth is seen, what must be done, when we see without our petty grievances and attachments and dislikes, our contingent limited responses created by Memory and so on. The love of the truth gives rise to the clarity of what must be done. We can see it as one.

How about that? Is that OK? I'm not anti science. I am pro philosophy, and dear old science is the deity enshrined by natural philosophers who got above themselves. Okay, I am anti materialist. Also, I am anti theist. But then again I am pro materialist, and pro theist. I say let's do away with all the old fake dichotomies of the past. That one especially has been particularly iniquitous, and I suspect, deliberately propogated by those who ought to know better.

You have only my best wishes, my friend. I am sorry that we have argued in the past. I am a little imp sometimes. People who know me think me terribly sarcastic. I realise my words can be open to many different interpretations. It is my own fault really.
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby crikkett » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:29 pm


The One Percent

(soon to be the Once-One Percent? I keep accidentally typing that way)
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:32 pm

Poodle Horse Longs For Death
Image
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Project Willow » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:26 pm

I am briefly responding to JLaw here, as this is the proper place for the occupy discussion, and adding another replication of the other thread title to the database and the search engines is something I will not do.

jlaw172364 wrote:I fail to see how Occupy won't be as ineffectual as the antiwar movement was during the Bush years. Its all just an exercise in sheep herding. The people that organize these events are like concert promoters.


Occupy has already been effectual. It succeeded in affecting the frame of the national discussion about the response to the recession from budget crisis to systemic inequality and fraud, re-introducing these issues into common discourse. Management of perception and the boundaries of debate are major weapons in the control system and Occupy leveled against it a heavy blow. That, to me anyway, is resistance.
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:31 am

OWS has no idea how social repression is really done in the US. There are forces more heinous than Big Money.

They were punked by perps who deliberately got the ball rolling to burn out and tame the movement while it was vague and weak.
This is a tactic right out of a US Army counterinsurgency manual.

And that's who OWS knows nothing about while pointing at the rich.
CIA runs mainstream media since WWII:
news rooms, movies/TV, publishing
...
Disney is CIA for kidz!
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:34 pm

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:OWS has no idea how social repression is really done in the US. There are forces more heinous than Big Money.

They were punked by perps who deliberately got the ball rolling to burn out and tame the movement while it was vague and weak.
This is a tactic right out of a US Army counterinsurgency manual.

And that's who OWS knows nothing about while pointing at the rich.


As long as we're going Meta -- how do you actually target and reckon with those insidious forces, then? Is there any means of effective resistance in your cosmology? Any strategy for victory, or just a life sentence of hermetically interpreting movie posters?
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:38 pm

Image

It's a remarkable parallel world I straddle. I know this cat and get along with him. He knows I don't participate in his reality tunnel but also knows I'm not playing for The Other Guys either, so we can conversate.

This narrative has definitely solidified, though. This guy is a lot like the gun shop hawks my dad is friends with up and down the east coast and there's really no reasoning with him...but hopefully I'm just lazy. Re-reading NLP, Skousen, and Korzybski these days, hoping to stir up something new.

I think there might be some fertile cross-pollen action to be had with this thread: NLP: Roots and Offshoots and Ecosystem. Enjoy.
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby bks » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:46 pm

This narrative has definitely solidified, though. This guy is a lot like the gun shop hawks my dad is friends with up and down the east coast and there's really no reasoning with him...but hopefully I'm just lazy.


I'm sure you're right that there's no reasoning with him, but their narrative is dead, flat wrong. I wouldn't waste much breath. Every left-ish social formation is going to be reduced to some version of this idiocy from the unhearing right, because they have the tinnest of ears. To them, Obama is a Marxist, Soros is a Marxist, Marx is a Marxist. They don't know and can't see the difference between something that's truly sprung from the left, and something that is born from the bowels of the DNC.

They really don't know much about what they supposedly hate.
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Re: Understanding OWS: the meta-thread

Postby 3×5 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:09 am

The tips on how to identify an agent provocateur was very interesting, and I like the caveat at the end that your movement can be wrecked by someone acting in the ways listed, not because they're an agent, but simply because they're immature and uncooperative. That's a real conundrum when you get involved with groups that are radical or counter-cultural --- you do end up with a higher concentration with people who seem to be rejecting society because they just never learned to get along with people.

Honestly, a big part of why I stopped attending Truther meetings and actions was because of the prevalence of people who ran in that circle who I agreed with on the key issues, and who also seemed to have a tenuous grasp on reality. It also made me wonder if the infiltration there simply involves quietly convincing a bunch of visibly insane people to embrace conspiracy theories, and then make sure they show up to everything.
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