Scottish Independence and the UK State

[AhabsOtherLeg]

I have of late, and wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth, and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame the United Kingdom (Union of the Crowns 1603, Treaty of Union 1707) seems to me a sterile promontory.

Is there anyone here (or even elsewhere) who can advance a realistic, convincing, and positive case for the continuation of the Treaty of Union between England and Scotland (1707) upon which Great Britain is founded?

I am at a loss to think of any benefits that either of our nations accrue from this arrangement at the moment, but needless to say I have an agenda.

I have made a wee video, 16 minutes long, which contains most of the major arguments in favour of Scottish independence, but concentrates (unfortunately) on the question of oil, which is not my main concern. It is the lies told by Whitehall, the deliberate misuse of the civil services by both Labour and Tory governments, the laughable rigging of the 1979 devolution referendum (which no other democratic state in the world would have tolerated), the pathetic false flag terrorist attacks, and the McCrone Report that matters to me. The oil and gas can hing as it grows.



There is a bit of Gaelic here and there, but it is subtitled.

[slimmouse]

Is there anyone here (or even elsewhere) who can advance a realistic, convincing, and positive case for the continuation of the Treaty of Union between England and Scotland (1707) upon which Great Britain is founded?

Nothing of real benefit for anyone but the usual suspects.The sorely missed Antiaristo knows the score.

Hope you are well, John.

[AhabsOtherLeg]

Nothing of real benefit for anyone but the usual suspects.The sorely missed Antiaristo knows the score.

He did know the score (apart from that shite about the Talmud) and hopefully still does (I mean, I hope he's alright - don't agree with him on everything, but he is a wiser man than I, and a better one - I know next to fuck all about the Treason Felony Act.).

I am sure he would approve of the direction we are heading in anyway. We have a real chance here to (democratically, and peacefully) force the UK into unilateral nuclear disarmament, the renunciation of their "pre-emptive war" and "first strike" doctrines and capability, and give the elected leaders of the UK no choice but to pay some long-needed attention to their actual electrorate... y'know, the citizens of the country.

They are not clever enough to be scared of Scottish Independence yet (they honestly believe that we are a drain on their resources, even as they drain our resources). But they are scared of what you lot might do if we upset the apple cart.

They are scared that you lot in England will ask for the same benefits and protections we have - and that ye's might one day demand an English Parliament, where your own views and interests are prioritised.

From their point of view there already is an English Parliament, which prioritises English needs and issues. They are right, of course, in a way. But little do they know.

[slimmouse]

They are not clever enough to be scared of Scottish Independence yet (they honestly believe that we are a drain on their resources, even as they drain our resources). But they are scared of what you lot might do if we upset the apple cart.

The English dont need to be scared of Scottish independence until people become truly informed of how things work in our "democracy" (along with the rest of the "democracies of the world ), since if scottish independence did become some form of a reality under the current "reality" model, it would only be in name.

[Jeff]

That's a wonderfully compelling primer and fittingly mirthless testament. Well done!

[Searcher08]

They are not clever enough to be scared of Scottish Independence yet (they honestly believe that we are a drain on their resources, even as they drain our resources). But they are scared of what you lot might do if we upset the apple cart.

The English dont need to be scared of Scottish independence until people become truly informed of how things work in our "democracy" (along with the rest of the "democracies of the world ), since if scottish independence did become some form of a reality under the current "reality" model, it would only be in name.

I think the biggest spanner in Scottish independence will not come from the English but from the Spanish. I think Spain will never let Scotland join the EU because to do so would unleash the break-up of the Spanish state itself. Catalan, Basque and Gallician nationalism would explode.

[AhabsOtherLeg]

...if scottish independence did become some form of a reality under the current "reality" model, it would only be in name.

Yes. I suppose it would be a mythical independence that only exists in name, like that enjoyed by India, Iceland, Ireland, Sweden, Norway, the Faroe islands, etc.

But in real terms the UK would lose it's "independent" nuclear deterrent capability (this has been admitted by Admiral Lord West), it's Triple-A credit rating (about fucking time), and it's ability to "project force" overseas (thank Christ).

We have an opportunity here to break the back of the UK military, and we can do it over the public's knee. I am certain that only a big massive tit, or a fanny, would fail to take this chance.

If you honestly believe in a better world ( which does not and never will involve the UK being a military powerful nation) vote Yes, to dissolve the Treaty of Union. Or vote No, because it's your choice.

But be sensible. If you want to prevent a war against Iran you can do so at a stroke - just cripple the UK's armed forces in advance by annulling the United Kingdom as a polytical entity. It'll be piss easy, and nothing will be lost.

[AhabsOtherLeg]

I think the biggest spanner in Scottish independence will not come from the English but from the Spanish. I think Spain will never let Scotland join the EU because to do so would unleash the break-up of the Spanish state itself. Catalan, Basque and Gallician nationalism would explode.

The Spanish already said it was OK. For the record.

[coffin_dodger]

Ahab, first off, I'm officially classed as English, but I've always considered myself a human first.

Personally, I would posit that the inevitable collapse of Empire, status and dominance that is staring the UK right in the face, right now, would be better confronted together, rather than apart.

Independance at this stage may only foster even greater resentment. I can empathise with the Scots wish to abandon the sinking ship that England and all it represents has become. But we're uncomfortably close neighbours to be unfriendly to one another.

I don't want to come across as 'happy-clappy, let's all work together in love and harmony', but hopefully that reality might be just around the corner now. My kids are 15-18 and they are completely different to my generation. They love and hug and kiss all their friends and are much, much more able to articulate their emotions to their peers. They aren't going to believe all the bullshit we've been fed all of our lives. They get their worldview from friends, social networks and internet media. They are capable of processing huge amounts of data whilst doing many tasks simultaneously. My kids can watch TV, browse the net, email, check who's doing or saying what on facebook, chat on msn, text, blackberry bbm and eat their lunch at the same time. And recall everything they've done in detail. They also tell me they worry about the future and what the planet is going to be like for themselves and their children, with no prompting from me.

If we don't fuck it up too badly in the next couple of decades for them to recover, change it they will.

And I hope, together. Got to be better than apart.

[Searcher08]

I think the biggest spanner in Scottish independence will not come from the English but from the Spanish. I think Spain will never let Scotland join the EU because to do so would unleash the break-up of the Spanish state itself. Catalan, Basque and Gallician nationalism would explode.

The Spanish already said it was OK. For the record.

Next thing you'll be telling me World War 2 has finished...

[RobinDaHood]

Nice vid! I'll tell you though- you chaps better get movin quickly.

Looks like the queen already got the best of ya!

[AhabsOtherLeg]

Slimmouse and Searcher08 (and Antiaristo if you ever read this) I'm sorry for the tone I took in my replies earlier in this thread. I was horribly drunk (as usual) and was raging out after my weekly dose of Alan Cochrane in The Telegraph (a weekly dose that will be avoided from now on, for health reasons). I apologise if I came off defensive or aggressive, or just incredibly stupid, or even all of the above. I'll be sensible from here on in.

It's true about the Spanish though, their Foreign Minister has confirmed that they have no interest in Scottish independence one way or the other, and no intention to veto our EU membership (if indeed our membership will even have to be put to a vote, which is by no means certain at the moment).

SPAIN WILL NOT VETO AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND JOINING EU


Sunday February 26,2012
By Graeme Murray

NATIONALISTS yesterday welcomed comments by the Spanish Foreign Minister that the country would not veto an independent Scotland joining the European Union.

Spain has already blocked Kosovo's accession to the EU on the grounds that it would encourage separatism in its Catalonia or Basque regions.

And there has been speculation among experts that it would also curb Scotland's ambitions to join if it becomes independent.

But yesterday Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo insisted his country would not raise any objection to European Union recognition - if Scottish independence was accepted by Westminster.

His comments, published in the Spanish newspaper Diario Vasco, were seized upon by the SNP who insisted it bolstered the case for breaking up Britain.

Mr Garcia-Margallo said: "If in the UK both parties agree that this is consistent with their constitutional order, written or unwritten, Spain would have nothing to say, just that this does not affect us.

"No one would object to a consented independence of Scotland."

He said the independence of Kosovo was different because it was based on a "unilateral decision" and admitted the Spanish position would have been different if it had been agreed between Belgrade and Pristina.

Europe Minister Peter Hain has said moves to have an independent Scotland represented in Europe would be vetoed by Spain because of the precedent.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/304 ... joining-EU

I'm not sure why The Independent (a paper I usually trust, to an extent, though it has become increasingly latte-left over recent years) didn't print a retraction of it's original story after it was directly and publically contradicted by the Spanish Foreign Minister in the Express and elsewhere, but at any rate no retraction has been forthcoming.

The Independent cited an unusually vague collection of anonymous sources for the original story too, which I thought strange at the time:

Spanish officials have registered concerns with counterparts in the United Kingdom over the Scottish government's independence blueprint, senior Whitehall sources confirmed yesterday.

Spain has indicated it could block an independent Scotland's accession to the European Union, sources said. It has already refused to recognise Kosovo's existence as an independent state. Madrid fears such moves will encourage separatist ambitions in Spanish regions, particularly Catalonia and the Basque region. Spain's refusal to recognise Kosovo has frustrated the former Serbian province's ambitions to enter the union.

The Catalan premier, Artur Mas, last week drew parallels with Scotland as he argued for a new financial deal with Madrid. "Spain refuses to speak publicly about Scotland at this stage," a senior Foreign Office source said yesterday. "But they have been making it clear for a number of years they are apprehensive about the prospect of Scotland becoming independent. The renewed debate about the referendum has started it all again."

A senior UK minister said: "We understand the Scottish view is they would wish to join the UN but they would not wish to join Nato. They might wish to join the EU, but we fully expect Spain to block it, fearing it might encourage the separatist spirit on their doorstep."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 92846.html

So all the talk of the Spanish veto came from Whitehall and the UK government, and was then faithfully reported by the UK press, before being categorically dismissed by the Spanish government itself. I wonder why no one in the offices of The Independent ever thought of phoning the Spanish government for confirmation of their position before running the headline? Well, no, I don't wonder really. "Senior Whitehall sources" indeed. Hehehe.

This kind of thing happens a lot. Pretty much any time there is a concern raised about continued Scottish membership of the EU in the press, it is Whitehall who has raised it, or these anonymous "UK ministers". I expect there will be much more of this to come. Their concern over Scotland's future is touching - if a little belated - but the EU itself doesn't seem to share their worries (and neither does Scotland).

I would rather Scotland left the EU anyway (hopefully somebody will step up to veto us when the time comes - the remaining UK could even do it) and instead we would revert back to only holding membership of the European Free Trade Agreement (like Norway).

Independance at this stage may only foster even greater resentment. I can empathise with the Scots wish to abandon the sinking ship that England and all it represents has become. But we're uncomfortably close neighbours to be unfriendly to one another.

I don't see England and all it represents as a sinking ship - I have very high hopes for England and it's future. It is Westminster, Whitehall, and the UK system as enshrined in the Treaty of Union which has to be thrown overboard, or at least confined below decks, and it has to be done for the benefit of England as much as Scotland. England has suffered just as much as Scotland under the Union, and at times it's people have been treated with even greater contempt. Neither we nor you can afford to keep carrying this worthless imperial cargo when the seas are rough ahead... to stretch this maritime metaphor beyond breaking point. It is the UK that is sinking, and the sooner it goes under the better, in my opinion. I sincerely believe we will all be better off without it. What good has it ever done the average person here?

I don't see why we'd need to be unfriendly to one another just because we each regain our status as separate independent countries, but I agree with you that Whitehall will not see it that way, and will do everything in it's power to cause hatred and division, as they've always done - they are already talking about partitioning Scotland pre-referendum (that old imperial trick) so they can keep hold of Shetland, Orkney, and Rockall

The inclusion of Rockall in that list shows that it is not the people of Orkney and Shetland that Westminster is concerned about. It is the oil. They could hardly be more blatant about it.

If I were to vote No to independence on the grounds that we're "stronger together", I would in effect be voting for the continuation of the status quo, reinforcing the domination of the entire UK (including England, which deserves much better) by the irredeemably corrupt, inept, and harmful Westminster and Whitehall system. Can't do that.

[gnosticheresy_2]

I don't see England and all it represents as a sinking ship - I have very high hopes for England and it's future. It is Westminster, Whitehall, and the UK system as enshrined in the Treaty of Union which has to be thrown overboard, or at least confined below decks, and it has to be done for the benefit of England as much as Scotland. England has suffered just as much as Scotland under the Union, and at times it's people have been treated with even greater contempt. Neither we nor you can afford to keep carrying this worthless imperial cargo when the seas are rough ahead... to stretch this maritime metaphor beyond breaking point. It is the UK that is sinking, and the sooner it goes under the better, in my opinion. I sincerely believe we will all be better off without it. What good has it ever done the average person here?

England doesn't exist except as a propaganda image on television. The geographical area formally occupied by England now consists of two countries: 1) London and the SE 2) Everything Else. Parts of England may have suffered under the Union, people in some parts of England may have been treated with contempt but, by and large, those parts are away from the centre of power, where they jolly well should be, the savages. And savagery and repression in England is exactly what I expect to happen once Scotland leaves.

[vanlose kid]

...it's a shite state of affairs to be in Ahab, 's about time ye did something about it.

*

[Searcher08]

I don't see England and all it represents as a sinking ship - I have very high hopes for England and it's future. It is Westminster, Whitehall, and the UK system as enshrined in the Treaty of Union which has to be thrown overboard, or at least confined below decks, and it has to be done for the benefit of England as much as Scotland. England has suffered just as much as Scotland under the Union, and at times it's people have been treated with even greater contempt. Neither we nor you can afford to keep carrying this worthless imperial cargo when the seas are rough ahead... to stretch this maritime metaphor beyond breaking point. It is the UK that is sinking, and the sooner it goes under the better, in my opinion. I sincerely believe we will all be better off without it. What good has it ever done the average person here?

England doesn't exist except as a propaganda image on television. The geographical area formally occupied by England now consists of two countries: 1) London and the SE 2) Everything Else. Parts of England may have suffered under the Union, people in some parts of England may have been treated with contempt but, by and large, those parts are away from the centre of power, where they jolly well should be, the savages. And savagery and repression in England is exactly what I expect to happen once Scotland leaves.

And once Scotland leaves, it will be the coal eating, headhunting, cannibalistic Geordies like yourself in the North East who will be first to feel the disciplinary influence of us who live inside the civilizing boundaries of the M25.