Has anyone seen this info on the Monarch Program before?

by **Dreams End** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:26 am

I couldn't find the Springmeier thread. Maybe someone else can locate it. Basically, Springmeier not only "rescued" the victim...he also became her lover. He started going around with her calling her his wife while he was still married. The thread has letters from his wife talking about that. This idea of both "rescuing" these survivors and becoming their lovers/husbands...it's a disturbing one that Jeff has also noted. The Illuminati idea has also been discussed at some length here. Reactionary forces of all types have wanted to blame every social movement not to their liking on the Illuminati...just as they did it on Communism in the last century and some blame communism on the illuminati, etc. If there were some way to search the entire freaking board at once you'd find tons of information on this. I just don't know where all of it is. Actually, I think the most recent thread on Springmeier may not have been archived yet. I don't know...I'lll look for a bit. I think Bio's take on why survivors are talking about the Illuminati is exactly right. They have a preset agenda to "prove" the illuminati are behind everything and it contaminates the whole field. There is so much misinformation out there about this...and LOTS of it mixes in elements of reality...so be really careful, please, about accepting the totality of someone's writing about this just because some of it rings true. Much of it is now in the public domain and easily included by anyone to make their own theories look plausible. As far as I know the first place that the "alpha, beta, gamma" levels of programming was discussed was in the rather infamous "Dr. Greenbaum" lecture. Here's Jeff's post on it: <a href="http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/02/americas-condition-greene.html">rigorousintuition.blogspo...reene.html</a> And the lecture itself: <a href="http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/greenbaum.htm">www.mindcontrolforums.com/greenbaum.htm</a> And here is a very large compilation of links that I just ran across that definitely is worth a bookmark though I haven't even begun checking them out. <a href="http://www.empty-memories.nl/www_14.html">www.empty-memories.nl/www_14.html</a> Please understand that I know this stuff is real. In fact, there is no controversy in stating that. There have been enough FOIA documents released that it's cleare that the following ideas are absolute, rock solid facts: The US engaged in mind control research. That experiments in mind control research involved unwitting and involuntary subjects. That the US has experimented on children in a similar fashion. We also know...or at least I do from living with it every day that trauma can create a system of alters inside a person..each alter splitting off to handle the stress/fear/pain that is too overwhelming. This can and does happen spontaneously, but surely if that's the case, it's not that big a leap to assume, even without documentation, that using trauma to create an alter system would have been studied. However, I am fairly certain there is no FOIA evidence (as opposed to witness statements) that the "search for the Manchurian candidate" involved anything other than drugs and hypnosis. I've not seen any government documents discussing the intentional introduction of trauma as a tool in mind control. But, of course, I don't expect THOSE documents to be released if they exist. I could be wrong on that...and would be really interested if someone knows differently. As for the Greenbaum speech itself...I can't find ANY other reference to a "D.C. Hammond" (the guy who gave the speech) other than reposts of this lecture. Anyone else have any luck? In other words, does the guy exist? Did he exist and now no longer exists? Since, as far as I can tell, he was the first to talk about this elaborate programming, it would be important to find out. Aha...the Springmeier thread: <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm16.showMessage?topicID=38.topic">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...D=38.topic</a> I do wonder about these stories of such elaborate, "alpha, beta" programming. It seems to introduce WAY too many levels of complexity than would be needed. I'm not saying it's not true, just that I can't see the reasoning behind that. Why have one person with so many levels....each alter produces a little more stress on the system from what I can see. And the amount of work to do it... I can absolutely see why they'd WANT to produce Manchurian candidates...and can accept that they ARE producing them, but I'd want to get more information on why you'd want hundreds of alters in such a complex system. I don't see the point of it..other than initial experiments. I also sometimes get the feeling that one of the secrets that is being covered by some of the disinformation is that it really isn't that HARD to create Manchurian Candidates through hypnosis. We've all seen sideshow type hypnosis acts where people are convinced of all kinds of funny things, like that their nose is stretching or that they are a chicken or whatever. Replace that suggestion with this one: "When I call and say the words (insert some code phrase here) you will believe that your children are threatened by (insert target name here) and that the only way to stop him is to (insert really bad thing here.)" The FOIA documentation DOES give us accounts of exactly that sort of hypnotic programming, in which a woman is hypnotized and told to shoot another person in order to prevent a bomb going off. And it worked. (Got that from Bluebird, by Colin (yes, the CIA is doing this but they aren't really to blame) Ross.) In fact, one STATED goal of Bluebird was to be able to hypnotize someone and create a Manchurian candidate within an HOUR! Far different from the elaborate programming we've seen mentioned. So, if this elaborate programming of systems of hundreds of alters is literally true (as opposed to the idea that the trauma utilized to create a set of alters simply sets in motion the spontaneous creation of many others) then it has some purpose way beyond just creating "perfect spies." I don't know what that might be. And surely there are other types of programming in play. I assume that many cults have intelligence ties and are simply "labs" for creating mind control on a larger scale. I shudder to think about how what gets learned in Jonestown and the like gets put to use in overall society. I can imagine a vast number of "sleeper cell" type groups or individuals, called into action as needed. I think, for example, that one of the LEAST elaborate theories about 9/11 would simply be that the hijackers existed and were MC subjects. This would explain their very profound LACK of religiosity in their public lives, making them unlikely martyrs. The "flight training" was just to provide some evidence that they had any while the real training took place elsewhere. I'm not saying I can prove that, just that it takes very little suspension of disbelief to imagine such possibilities going on all around us. Columbine type activities raise my suspicion...and if ANYWHERE this is happening, surely it is Chechnya, where the US has all kinds of ties to the Chechen rebels who terrorize the civilian population there. Again...not saying I have evidence, just that it simply would not surprise me in the least if documents proving these allegations were thrown on my desk. But I think we create problems when we accept all of this Illuminati business at face value. There really was an Illuminati. Jacob Weishaupt was a real person. They did promote "enlightenment" values and they did have their origins within and borrow much from Freemasonry. The eighteenth century was a fertile time for such groups...and is certainly worthy of study...but most of the crap you read about them is unsubstantiated and designed to fit an agenda. It's sort of like saying "The CIA breached the New Orleans levee." While proving that the CIA has engaged in all kinds of really evil activities is an extremely trivial exercise, this doesn't make every allegation of evil about the CIA true simply by assertion. And, in anticipation of certain objections, it also doesn't mean that to deny the CIA breached the New Orleans levee is somehow to deny other CIA atrocities or to be part of a "cover up". THAT, in fact, is exactly the sort of thinking that lets all the disinfo stick around.

by **havanagila** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:02 pm

<a href="http://users.snip.net/~drsteve/Articles/Building_Resistance.html">users.snip.net/~drsteve/A...tance.html</a> a good article on how to resist manipulation and hypnotism. Author believes that the horror stories of Mk Ultra served to decieve the public into believing that control can only be achieved with torture and electroshock, while in truth EVERY PERSON can be unwittingly hypnotized to act against their will. -- That might be true for Manchurian candidate (one time hits) but if you want a total false identity to develop, in order to have "sleeper cells", moles, etc., the person has to be broken to pieces when they are quite young in age. this way, he or she, will act naturally, and appear convincing to the most suspecting eye. So, if you want to groom a person to become a lawyer who will reach a certain position, or a media person etc. etc., or a foreign mole, i think this is where the intentional creationg of trauma and all the intricate programming comes in. Because the issue is not ONE mission, but a whole front identity that you need to comply edit- this is the entire list of publications recommended by the Israeli webpage for Mind Control (this is a website approved by the establishment). <a href="http://www.macom.org.il/mindcontrollinks1.asp#articles">www.macom.org.il/mindcont...p#articles</a> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=havanagila>havanagila</A> at: 2/22/06 9:22 am

by **chiggerbit** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:21 pm

From Scoop, The Left, The Right, and the Wrong: <a href="http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0511/S00065.htm">www.scoop.co.nz/stories/H...S00065.htm</a> ".....In the first part of my interview with ritual abuse-mind control survivor Kathleen Sullivan, she made the following observation: Another interesting factor is that most of the more outspoken disinfo agents present together at conferences that either pander to “conspiracy theorists” and/or to the sector that is pro-Aryan and/or “Patriot.” Not all people in the Patriot movement are pro-Aryan. However, I have learned that most of the mind-control disinfo agents are, privately if not publicly, avowed racists. This would seem to be a rather odd connection, if one did not know that many Aryan organizations and cell groups use “trauma-based mind control” on their members, to ensure their submission and compliance. I find this fascinating. Sullivan says that the occult-intelligence perpetrators of ritual abuse belong to the Aryan networks, as do those who have claimed leadership of its exposure. This is one of those things that threw me for a cognitive loop when I began discovering this material, which nearly tempted me to pretend the evidence for it didn't exist. (Another one was that many of the self-styled champions of mind control survivors become their lovers and handlers.) These characters, like Fritz Springmeier, Mark Phillips and Ted Gunderson, are either drawn from or pander to the extreme right: the militias, the White Nationalists, and the "Patriot" communities. (Linda Blood, author of The New Satanists, had a WTF? moment in the mid-90s at a ritual and cult abuse conference, to the delight of debunker Evan Harrington: "Blood, who spoke later in the day, protested that she was 'unhappy to be following someone [Marqui] who is pushing the Protocols of the Elders of Zion,' which she said was anti-Semitic trash. Blood's protest deeply angered some and bewildered others, while about four of Blood's friends clapped in support.") The conspiratocracy nurtures a false opposition on the far right, to cause gentler hearts across the spectrum to turn away in disgust from inquiring after darker secrets, and perhaps also to provide cover to a pool of low-level functionaries. And it's no exaggeration to say Nazis are throwing their thought-bombs at us, attempting to make their cause respectable and infiltrate our side and - worse - our minds. On the "White Nationalist" board Stormfront, a recent post from "Free Zundel Now" spoke of success spreading a "stealth article" calling for Bush's impeachment on "forums that ordinarily won't take our kind of subject matter." "Free Zundel Now" tried it on the RI board, and the Nazi spamming was exposed....." Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=chiggerbit@rigorousintuition>chiggerbit</A> at: 2/22/06 10:28 am

by **GDN01** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:48 pm

You've all provided good feedback and more things to consider on this subject. It is all very complicated and to try and figure out who can be trusted as legitimate sources of help is very difficult. DE wrote: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>But I think we create problems when we accept all of this Illuminati business at face value. There really was an Illuminati. Jacob Weishaupt was a real person. They did promote "enlightenment" values and they did have their origins within and borrow much from Freemasonry. The eighteenth century was a fertile time for such groups...and is certainly worthy of study...but most of the crap you read about them is unsubstantiated and designed to fit an agenda.<hr></blockquote> I completely agree. And this is why I linked to the second site, it put the Illuminati in this context but did not seem to hold them responsible for every act and as the the controlling force in the world, throughout time. It seems clear that the earliest attempts of mind control in Germany can be linked to a group who has Illuminati ties. Maybe this is why others have grabbed on to the Illuminati as the control group for Monarch, Bluebird, and MKUltra, as well as other such efforts around the world. Or, it could be as others have suggested, there is an agenda on the part of some "rescuers" to blame the Illuminati for all wrong-doing in the world, so why not blame them for mind control programs, too? I've also been thinking about why some "rescuers" have become intimately involved with the women they have "deprogrammed". I can understand the intensity of such relationships, from a therapeutic setting, but it does not excuse it. And it does lead to suspicions about the integrity of the "rescuer". I have been wrestling with the question of the plausibility of creating so many mind-control subjects - it seems to me that the work that is required to create such complex systems, the days and hours dedicated to such horrific treatments of individuals over years, and the number of people that would have to be involved, would lead to the possibility of "handlers" eventually breaking ranks and exposing the whole enterprise. Reading both websites suggests that it takes parental involvement, as well as many outside people, to create the desired level of trauma and control. Has there ever been an insider that has come forward and confirmed all that survivors have revealed? The lack of the insider coming forward does not mean the abuse did not happen - I firmly believe the stories of people here on RI as well as the stories of Cathy O'Brien, Paul Bonacci, and Kathleen Sullivan. What is hard for me to believe is that was and is still being done to tens of thousands, and that it is still such a well-kept secret, that someone who was responsible for doing this to children, has not found it in themselves to realize this is wrong - horribly wrong, and try to put a stop to it. Maybe the fear for their own lives and the lives of their family, is enough to stop that from ever happening.

by **chiggerbit** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:03 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The Monarch Mind Control was carried out in large airplane hangers on the base which have been able to house thousands of tiny cages just large enough for human babies. Lots of 1,000 babies was a small batch. According to people who worked in the hangers helping program, many batches were 2,000 or 3,000 babies. Many survivors remember the thousands of cages housing little children from ceiling to floor. The cages were hot wired (electrified on the ceiling, bottom and sides) so that the children who are locked inside can receive horrific electric shocks to their bodies to groom their minds to split into multiple personalities. These cages are called Woodpecker Grids.<hr></blockquote> I don't buy this. It just isn't possible to "raise" babies in cages and have them turn out as human beings who are able to blend into human society later. Babies have to be fed (bottle, I assume), their waste products managed. They would have to be taught language and all the other assumed sociological functions that are taken for granted in family settings,or even in group settings, such as orphanages. Babies raised in cages would likely not survive, and if they did, would be like wild animals. No, worse than wild animals. This sounds like a perfect example of disinformation, intended to turn off listeners, mixing fact with bizarre, outrageous fiction. Beware.

by **pugzleyca3** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:52 pm

Chiggerbit, This too made my eyebrows raise when I read about the number of babies, the number just seemed so exaggerated and I too thought about the logistics of taking care of so many, in cages no less. Possible? Anything's possible, but the probability of it is much less. Another section, I caught something that I thought was wrong. There was a statement made that both heroine and cocaine were made from poppys. This is not true is it? I know heroine is made from poppys, but always thought cocaine was from a shrubby type plant grown in South America. I tried looking it up and cocaine and poppys didn't seem to have a thing in common. Anyway, it was in reference to the Wizard of Oz comparisons they were making in the book. And it said that Dorothy was put to sleep with the poppys, yes that part is true, but they vascillated when it came to the "snow" that woke her. The analogy would have been correct except for the part about the poppys. Cocaine would certainly wake you up. And it is called "snow". But it doesn't tranquilize, it makes you hyper. Maybe they are using the word tranquilize in a broader sense? Did anyone else reading this catch that part? Just something that made me say WTF. These days, when I find something that doesn't jibe, it really makes me stop and think and I tend to start to discount the truthfulness of the entire article or book. Could just be an honest mistake? I just went to look this up to show you what I mean, here's the quote from the book: "The Flowers used in the movie and books, are also used in the programming. The witch uses poppy flowers to put the lion and Dorothy to sleep. Opium and cocaine are used to tranquilize Monarch slaves. An alter of a slave will get trancy when they enter the poppy field. (Heroin and cocaine come from poppies.) In the film, Dorothy says, "What is happening? I'm so sleepy." She and the lion get sleepy for no apparent reason very quickly. Monarch slaves do the same thing. Waking up with snow in the movie is nothing less than an allusion to cocaine which is a common substance given to Monarch slaves to help make them dependent."

by **Floyd Smoots** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:13 am

Major boo-boo there, too! Poppies are definitely used to produce opium, morphine, and heroin (a heroine is a "good gal" like yourself). Cocaine comes from the coca plant, grown mostly in South America, while the opium poppy is, for the most part a middle eastern product. It's all brought to us for our convenience by the alphabet-soup agencies of our beloved government, for their amusement, and (did I say?) PROFIT. Whenever anything Big or Bad happens in this current thread of reality, always stop, and ask yourself "Cui Bono?", smartass Old-Dead-Latin talk for "Who Benefits?". Earthy-People-Types always say, "follow the money", and, for the most part, they are correct, but I would add this caveat (O-D-L for Warning!), sometimes, you need to "follow the power", as in who gains some real or perceived Power over someone else when "Something Wicked This Way Comes"? P.S. pugzley, did I mention how much I really HATE boohoo.commie?? Check your alternate electrons, I think you'll get the picture. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> Once again edited for spelling 'cause Floyd can't spell "chek, pleeze" muuch less yuse "spill chak" Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=floydsmoots>Floyd Smoots</A> at: 2/22/06 9:23 pm

by **mother** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:51 am

Aside from the abominations put upon innocent SRA children and adults, the next worst aspect of this is that nobody believes it. Therefore, a talanted therapist blows it off as an urban legend, and so forth. Or normally caring and intelligent people discount the fact of SRA. Then, the evil-minded ones who do believe and pounce on the opportunity to exploit and profit by human misery....is there a spot reserved in the most hideous part of Hell?

by **pugzleyca3** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:04 am

I have no doubt in my mind that this is actually happening to people. I believe it and abhor the people who are behind this. I've heard of this since I was a child, always snippets of it, nothing you could really put your finger on, almost like a whispering campaign of sorts. I remember at one point, I think it was back in the late 60's or 70's and I think it was in Texas that law enforcement there must have actually busted one of these cults, but in the news it was downgraded to sound like it was just a bunch of kids playing at satanic rituals. Now that I have access to the internet and more information, I am inclined to believe that the people they actually caught were high ups in society and government and they got off because of this. I wish I could remember more details, but I was a kid then. Even so, I knew something was wrong with the reporting of it. My heart goes out to each and every one of these people who have been a victim of this type of abuse. Abuse is not even close to adequately describing what they are going through.

by **Floyd Smoots** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:08 am

Rest assured, mother, there truly is, but the sad part of that scenario is just this. There is NO WAY out once consigned there!!! That's why all true Christians cry when we/you/they comtemplate that fate for anyone. Hitler?, 1000 years. Stalin, the same. My jerk-butt boss, 5 years. You get the picture, but when you contemplate someone that you personally know, going there with no parole, no reprieve, no commutation of sentence, no pardon for disparaging God's Only Begotten Son, and His sacrifice to save our immortal souls, then, and only then, can you/we understand the need to cry real, human tears, about a fate for others, over which we have no control, save trying to convince them to learn the truth. Other than that, what can we do? brother Floyd

by **Project Willow** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:54 am

DE said: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>However, I am fairly certain there is no FOIA evidence (as opposed to witness statements) that the "search for the Manchurian candidate" involved anything other than drugs and hypnosis. I've not seen any government documents discussing the intentional introduction of trauma as a tool in mind control. But, of course, I don't expect THOSE documents to be released if they exist. I could be wrong on that...and would be really interested if someone knows differently.<hr></blockquote> This comes close and I wanted to post it here, the second paragraph outlines operant conditioning using torture, a basic component of mc. “… in working with individual subjects, special attention will be given to disassociative states which tend to accompany ESP experiences. Such states can be induced and controlled to some extent with hypnosis and drugs…The data used in the study will be obtained from special groups such as psychotics, children and mediums…” “Learning studies will be instituted in which the subject will be rewarded or punished for his overall performance and reinforced in various ways-by being told whether he was right, by being told what the target was, with electric shock, etc.”.... “In other cases drugs and psychological tricks will be used to modify his attitudes. The experimenters will be particularly interested in disassociative states, from the abaissement de niveau mental [trance state] to multiple personality in so-called mediums; and an attempt will be made to induce a number of states of this kind, using hypnosis.” Subproject 136 of MKULTRA, CIA Mori ID #17395, (Declassified Document) 1961-62 <blockquote>Quote:<hr>do wonder about these stories of such elaborate, "alpha, beta" programming. It seems to introduce WAY too many levels of complexity than would be needed. I'm not saying it's not true, just that I can't see the reasoning behind that. Why have one person with so many levels....each alter produces a little more stress on the system from what I can see. And the amount of work to do it...<hr></blockquote> Alpha, beta, etc. relate to brain wave patterns. MC DID systems can be highly complex, with hundreds of alters. But don't let the numbers confuse you. A central, smaller core of a dozen or so parts handles the bulk of the work. There are major alters in DID systems that serve an executive control or hub function. Those alters are targeted and trained intensely. The numerous alters remaining can be very fragmentary, holding only a single memory, and being, as personalities go, pretty much one dimensional. It's like having a tiny grain of yourself caught in an unconscious memory. If you think about it, a dissociative child making 4 or 5 trips to the lab every year, and undergoing multiple tortures on each visit, is going to create a lot of alters. GDNO1, I wanted to respond to a couple of these things. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I have been wrestling with the question of the plausibility of creating so many mind-control subjects - it seems to me that the work that is required to create such complex systems, the days and hours dedicated to such horrific treatments of individuals over years, and the number of people that would have to be involved... ... Has there ever been an insider that has come forward and confirmed all that survivors have revealed? ... Maybe the fear for their own lives and the lives of their family, is enough to stop that from ever happening.<hr></blockquote> The time it takes to create an operational subject taken as a child is a stay anywhere from a weekend to a couple of weeks, 4 to 5 times a year at a facility. Most of the perps have research, medical and/or military backgrounds, a lot of the work is done on bases, so you can imagine the kind of regimentation & replication that goes on. I and others have memories that suggest they had much of it down to an assembly line process. There is testimony about this going on all over the country. Given that, certainly you would think there would be witnesses, and there are, but I think all but the primary people are given alternate explanations for what they see, threats to career, life and family, etc. I wouldn't expect a former handler to grow a heart, other than that, I don't have an answer for the question.

by **havanagila** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:55 am

why is there no inside whistle blower ? I kept asking myself the same question, for years. My answer now is twofold. First, same question arises with respect to the holocaust. no answer to date. Specifically the more atrocious parts, the death camps and the medical blocks. Reading Lifton's "Nazi Doctors" provides a sound methodical response. He describes in details the mechanisms that prevent whistleblowing - meticulous selection of perps; process of "coaching" accompanied by carrots and sticks, "mentors" etc. finally, the ones who are exposed to the atrocity are caught in a bind, primarily a mental bind that prevents them from doing anything effective against the "operation". At best, they can barely get themselves out (few managed) OR try to be less bestial during their participation. However, they are coached into "doubling", a process he describes, which I find very compelling, and fits the people I know as perps. the is a whole array of language adulteration, which is part of the operation. things are not called by their real names . THis allows better secrecy BUT ALSO it allows the perps to remain forever in the twilight zone between reality as they live it (killing people) and reality as "the world" views it. The adulateration of the language is essential for the success of the process. And Orwell was also aware of that. Namely, the terms chosen to cover the real procedures are not coincidental code names, but in themselves are a reinforcement of doubling processess. I don't remember his examples but killings were termed as medical processes, etc. In our example, I can imagine the same happens, to numb and desentisize the perps, "tune up" and such like, no mention of the real stuff, torture, rape drugging. It becomes "sterile" clinical zone. -- Another explanation - in fact there were testimonies, and we have the cameron case, and STILL nothing happened. The earth didn't open and swallow anyone, and the public remained numb. Same goes for the holocaust btw. this has to lead to some pretty shocking conclusions about human nature. -- In israel, people who are government, and know of these things but are not part of them, would acknolwedge that with semi jokes. I will give you two real examples. One official in the Ministry of Health, was at the time the Head of Mental Health Research Unit. she was a former military psychologist. Privately, she acknowledged MK ultra, in the military, but called it "sci Fi". as in ,,oh there was this and that, you know all that"sci fi" stuff. this is also an example for language laundering (as in Lifton's examples) and also a way to emotionally deal with her guilt, horror, fear helplessness. Another example. A colleague of mine is a lawyer in a fairly new Knesset (Parliament) division, devised to make long term research and plans for "the future generations". they have a lot of time and money to play around with anything. She is young, and has military itel background. We discussed those issues and she said that they (meaning her and the others there) know of what XXZZ is doing (I was referring to man/uni in Israel who I think is the master of MC, in DOD). and then she laughed and said, yes you know all his workers are forced to get brain implants so he knows where they are and what they think, etc. etc. and giggles...but not as in joke but as in this is too horrible to discuss too long. that one last conversation was interesting cause I said, sadly, that "i wonder why he is allowed to continue" and she said "this is how it is, these people get a lot of power and become a problem, nobody can touch them. But then, one day, one of the really high ups, a PM or minister gets the "fit" and cracks down on these people and they are removed. This just might happen with this one too." I felt this was a hopeful sign. -- So people know, they even talk about it privately, but in truth, just like the holocaust, the ones Up there are damn scary, and one never is sure to what extent the atrocities are happening, and maybe it was just incidental etc.

by **Dreams End** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:42 am

I don't know why the Holocaust comparison never occurred to me. You had a whole network of "scientists" doing such things and yet I assume that they were able to keep it fairly secret. If you combine this with the fact that many of these doctors were smuggled into the US via paperclip...it makes sense. And a close study of Nazi medical experiments...I mean the way the things were set up and kept secret, it must be very similar. to PW: No, the alpha beta stuff I referred to is in the "greenbaum" lecture. These are codes for specific programs in the mc subject. He claimed that you can access these levels and that other therapists had independently found the same thing. Since I can't even confirm to my satisfaction that the giver of this lecture exists and is a psychiatrist or psychologist of good repute, I'm not saying that this is even taken as complete fact within the survivor community, but it's what I was referring to: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> The way that I would inquire as to whether or not some of this might be there would be with ideomotor finger-signals. After you've set them up I would say, "I want the central inner core of you to take control of the finger-signals." Don't ask the unconscious mind. The case where you're inquiring about ritual abuse, that's for the central inner core. The core is a Cult-created part. "And I want that central inner core of you to take control of this hand of these finger-signals and what it has for the yes-finger to float up. I want to ask the inner core of you is there any part of you, any part of Mary," that's the host's name, "who knows anything about Alpha, Beta, Delta, or Theta." If you get a Yes, it should raise a red flag that you might have someone with formal intensive brainwashing and programming in place. I would then ask and say, "I want a part inside who knows something about Alpha, Beta, Delta, and Theta to come up to a level where you can speak to me and when you're here say, 'I'm here.'" I would not ask if a part was willing to. No one's going to particularly want to talk about this. I would just say, "I want some part who can tell me about this to come out." Without leading them ask them what these things are. I've had consults where I've come in. Sometimes I've gotten a Yes to that, but as I've done exploration it appeared to be some kind of compliance response or somebody wanting, in two or three cases, to appear maybe that they were ritual abuse and maybe they were in some way, but with careful inquiry and looking it was obvious that they did not have what we were looking for. Let me tell you what these are. Let's suppose that this whole front row here are multiples and that she has an alter named Helen and she has one named Mary, she has one named Gertrude, she has one named Elizabeth, and she has one named Monica. Every one of those alters may have put on it a program, perhaps designated alpha-zero-zero-nine a Cult person could say, "Alpha-zero-zero-nine" or make some kind of hand gesture to indicate this and get the same part out in any one of them even though they had different names that they may be known by to you. Alphas appear to represent general programming, the first kind of things put in. Betas appear to be sexual programs. For example, how to perform oral sex in a certain way, how to perform sex in rituals, having to do with producing child pornography, directing child pornography, prostitution. Deltas are killers trained in how to kill in ceremonies. There'll also be some self- harm stuff mixed in with that, assassination and killing. Thetas are called psychic killers<hr></blockquote>. This is the sort of thing I mean..the intentional creation of complex, interrelated deliberately programmed alters in the hundreds. Do you think the above is disinfo? Well meaning but wrong? Correct? I have no idea but it seems so much more elaborate than I can think of reasoning for.

by sw » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:53 pm

by **havanagila** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:46 pm

What I heard of regarding these symblos is specific progams or levels of programming. Delta usually refers to assassination programs etc. etc. I am sure there are different sets of goals for progams, and it makes sense to give them general codes.

Has anyone seen this info on the Monarch Program before?

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