Scottish Independence and the UK State

[AhabsOtherLeg]

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Good news? I'm not sure - not sure I believe it either.

4 May 2012 Last updated at 00:50

RBS repays £163bn emergency loans

Royal Bank of Scotland is to say that as of next week, it will have repaid all the £163bn of emergency loans it received from UK and US taxpayers, BBC business editor Robert Peston says.

The announcement is expected when the bank reports its first-quarter results on Friday.

The government still owns 82% of shares in the bank.

Lloyds has also said it will have repaid all its emergency borrowing from UK taxpayers by the end of the year.

Lloyds' borrowing peaked at £157bn...

...In total, RBS received:

£75bn from the credit guarantee scheme - bonds issued by banks that are guaranteed against default by the Treasury and the Bank of England's special liquidity scheme
£36.6bn in emergency liquidity assistance from the Bank of England
$84.5bn (£52.4bn in today's money) from the US Federal Reserve

So its peak disclosed borrowing from government-backed schemes was £163.84bn - all of which will be repaid as of next week.

It also paid the UK Treasury between £1bn and £1.5bn in fees for the credit guarantee scheme, making the taxpayer a profit on that particular intervention.

RBS is still receiving some central bank support via the 10bn euros of cheap three-year loans from the European Central Bank's long-term refinancing operation (LTRO).

It can't just be as simple as that, can it? Full repayment, and everybody's magically reimbursed? I don't think so somehow. An interesting wrinkle in the independence debate, though, insofar as RBS is relevant to it.

No, if Scotland had been the horribly abusive drunk bossing us about and stealing all our money it would have been a far more accurate analogy.

Nah mate, if the UK had been the horribly abusive drunk bossing Scotland, England, NI, and Wales around and stealing all their money it would be accurate. The UK is just an older and sometimes even stupider version of the EU.

However, if you're the wife then after the divorce you can have custody over Northern Ireland. You raised it, anyway.

If Martin McGuiness is to be believed (a risky proposition, that) NI may well be moving toward a position of (full) Home Rule. I was very surprised by some of his recent chatter at the London School of Economics, especially about Ian Paisley: -

The Deputy First Minister also called into question the continuing value of the Northern Ireland Office and the continuation of the position of The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland quoting what Ian Paisley had said to him at their first meeting:

‘Martin, we can rule ourselves, we do not need these direct-rule ministers coming over here telling us what to do.’


“And I agree with him!” Mr. McGuinness told his audience at the LSE adding that the transfer of remaining powers “would be a massive vote of confidence in our political institutions and the Peace Process, as well as a massive saving to the Exchequer.

Can't be right, surely... Ian Paisley's for full self-government in NI? What did all those folk have to die for then? Jesus.

Yes, the Scottish Raj has been very bad for the rest of us.

If you mean the likes of Liam Fox, Werrity, Gove, John Reid, Jim Murphy, George Robertson, Gordon Brown, Lord Foulkes, Lord Forsyth, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, etc. then of course I hate them all too, and fully agree that their criminal activities and political "ideals" have been bad for all of us.

But I have one more reason to hate them than you do - they're Unionists.

[Stephen Morgan]

These fuckers used to get sent off to India, now they come down here. Feel free to go your own way and enjoy their misrule all by yourselves.

[AhabsOtherLeg]

These fuckers used to get sent off to India, now they come down here. Feel free to go your own way and enjoy their misrule all by yourselves.

Mmmh. Ok. I suppose that makes us allies, in a way.

Don't have to worry too much about the likes of Fox, Gove, Rifkind, etc. getting into government in an independent Scotland - they could never win a seat up here anyway, and have always had to go South to find an electorate that would tolerate them. Creatures like Robertson, Brown, Murphy, Foulkes and Forsyth will still be our problem - but them and their future ilk wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful without Westminster or the HoL behind them.

Sad to see that Labour are actually making gains in the local council elections. The beast yet lives and breathes. The Lib Dems are being annihilated, lost deposits all over the place so far. You'll like this:

In one Edinburgh ward a Lib Dem candidate has failed to pick up more first preference votes than Professor Pongoo, an independent candidate who dresses in a six-foot penguin costume.

Pleasing.

[semper occultus]

enjoy your one-party state Ahab - should make the Edinburgh Tattoo a bit different ( ...should be wearing kilts obviously.... )

[Stephen Morgan]

Now your Scots Tories come down here, later they'll join the ScotNats or your Labour. Assuming we don't still get stuck with all your flotsam, of course. I could easily see any independence Act making sure Scots can still be MPs in England and Wales.

And, of course, it's always good to see the LibDems doing badly. The CIA gave us them, they gave us Margaret Thatcher, and the worse they do the better.

[AhabsOtherLeg]

enjoy your one-party state Ahab - should make the Edinburgh Tattoo a bit different ( ...should be wearing kilts obviously.... )

To be honest, I wish there was a competent opposition party in Scotland, capable of rational debate and reasoned argument, but I can't kid myself that Scottish Labour are that.

We do need someone who can keep the SNP on their toes and stop them from getting too complacent or triumphalist. The Greens are on the rise - impressively so, despite the media doing it's best to ignore them entirely - but even I don't believe that Scotland is so inherently lefty that it would be happy having the SNP opposed in our Parliament primarily by the Greens. Two pseudo-socialist parties who broadly agree on fiscal policy, future energy strategy, the vast majority of social issues, and on independence. It wouldn't exactly make for a real democratic plurality.

Scottish Labour are still holding on, though. In fact they're still very powerful, unfortunately. It's not a one-party state yet (come to think of it, it's not even a state yet). Labour made some gains in the local council elections, and managed to hold Glasgow by the skin of their teeth. Next time we'll take it from them. Maybe.

Post-independence, a new centre-right Labour-ish party would have to form (probably still called Labour, and made up of all the old Labour faces and party-political machinery, minus the criminal element hopefully, and with a few of the softer Tories mixed in) but that's all hypothetical for the time being.

It's true that Alex Salmond IS a lot like Kim Jong Il, though... Lord Forsyth even said so in the House of Lords.

But isn't he really more like Hitler?



The Labour MPs Ann Moffat and Tom Harris have also compared Salmond to Hitler, so there must be something in it.

But is he really more like Slobodan Milosevic?



Or is he like Benito Mussolini, as Lord Foulkes has said?

Or like Josef Stalin, as Alan Cochrane wrote in The Telegraph?

Or like Robert Mugabe as Lord Cormack, Conservative peer, and Jeremy Paxman, BBC journalist, have insinuated?

Or like Ian Smith of Rhodesia, as Lord Cormack also stated?

Or like Genghis Khan as Kevin McKenna said in The Guardian?

Or like Caligula as John Macleod said in The Times?

Or like Nicolae Ceausescu as Neil Collins said in the Financial Times?

Or like Nero as Annabel Goldie, Conservative MSP, said in the Scottish Parliament?

All of this because he won an election, fair and square, and called for a referendum that was part of his party manifesto. What are they going to call him if he ever does anything undemocratic?

And, on a lighter note, how can one man be Robert Mugabe and Ian Smith at the same time?
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[AhabsOtherLeg]

I could easily see any independence Act making sure Scots can still be MPs in England and Wales.

Of course, Scots will still be able to stand in English and Welsh constituencies for election to the Parliament of the remaining UK so long as they first become citizens of the remaining UK, just as English and Welsh people will still be able to stand for election to the Scottish Parliament if they move here and gain citizenship. Why would any of that change unless you passed some crazy laws that specifically barred "Scots" from standing in English and Welsh constitiuencies? That would be a risky road to go down, btw - you don't want to start having some kind of "ethnic" requirement to take part in the democratic processes of your country. That way lies madness. It'd be... like Hitler.

You are aware that English and Welsh people sit in the Scottish Parliament currently? Quite a lot of them are on the SNP benches in fact. They'd still be there if the Union ended.

There's no one from Northern Ireland that I know of, though.

The only thing that would change would be that MPs for Scottish constituencies would no longer sit in the UK Parliament (or have votes on English and Welsh legislation, thus solving the West Lothian Question at a stroke) and likewise MPs for English and Welsh constituencies wouldn't sit in the Scottish Parliament or be able to effect our economy or laws. Gordon Brown, for example, would never have been Prime Minister of the UK while only having a seat in Cowdenbeath. But if he'd moved to Burnley Wood (like Liam Fox did) and been able to win a seat down there in England, then he would surely be as eligible for that position as anyone else?

Hell, the BNP's candidate for London Mayor was Uruguyan, so passing some kind of law to bar "born Scots" from standing in England and Wales would make you more extreme than them. It would be funny though.

And, of course, it's always good to see the LibDems doing badly. The CIA gave us them, they gave us Margaret Thatcher, and the worse they do the better.

I thought the CIA were meant to be efficient.

[Stephen Morgan]

Or like Nero as Annabel Goldie, Conservative MSP, said in the Scottish Parliament?

What's his mum like?

Or, like "my best mate" as Rupert Murdoch, Australian-cum-American media magnate, said in his wank fantasy.

[Stephen Morgan]

Cia very efficient, hence lack of nationalised industries.

I wouldn't want a law against born Scots being allowed in Parliament, as long as we can get rid of all the ones currently in there, and set up nice big immigration barriers to stop them getting back in. We shouldn't be your dumping ground anymore. Liam Fox can apply for citizenship in the new UK and be denied like anyone else from a third-world kleptocracy, then be booted back over the wall by Group4's private anti-immigration force, like they do to everyone else from foreign lands. Maginot-ify the Wall, obviously.

You keep your dregs, we'll keep ours, rather than having to find room to accomodate all yours too.

[AhabsOtherLeg]

Scotland currently has one elected Tory MP. We have had one elected Tory MP for quite some time (previously, we had none). Nevertheless, we are directly ruled from Westminster by a Tory government - in matters of defence and taxation, foreign policy, and our relations with the EU, we must bow to the highly-questionable judgement of a Tory-led government in London that we did not not vote for, and accept rule from a party that we have not voted for since 1955.

There is what Labour used to call a "democratic deficit" here. Labour called it that until they realised they would be wiped out electorally in Scotland if people actually realised what it meant, at which point they shut up about it because they don't care about democracy at all. People here have now realised what it meant, and means, though. Things have changed.

I agree with you on most of the points you have made. You don't believe in the Union, or the unified Parliaments of the UK - neither do I. You want to see Liam Fox drop-kicked far out into the Atlantic Ocean - so do I. You think the Maginot Line was cool because (very Frenchly) it had cinemas, cofee bars, and dedicated mushroom gardens for the resident chefs - I also think that was cool, and one of the finest achievements in military history.

For the record, Salmond's Mum was a "Churchill Conservative" apparently, while his Dad had the nickname "Uncle Joe" because he was a literal Stalinist back in the day. Not joking neither. Check out his grandad too, and the gear he's got on:





Yet if you were to ask me if I trust Salmond to lead this country more than Cameron, Osborne, Miliband, Balls, Clegg, Cable, Johann Lamont, Willie Rennie, Nigel Farage, and the entire Westminster/Whitehall system the answer would be a resounding Yes. He is simply better than the rest of them. You should just accept it. It is the truth.



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[Searcher08]

Alex Salmond is like.... Thomas Jefferson said Searcher from R.I.

[Stephen Morgan]

I've still never forgiven you Scots for what you did with Charles the First. Landed us with his dad, then landed us with Cromwell. Otherwise I don't see the point of Balkanising the place. There will always be underrepresented people and regions. Go for STV, not dissolution of the Union, if you're so democratic. Or, better yet, worker control of industry and the nationalisation of the natural monopolies. Better than setting the dominoes falling towards the rise of the Armed Front for the Liberation of Yorkshire.

[semper occultus]

It's true that Alex Salmond IS a lot like Kim Jong Il, though... Lord Forsyth even said so in the House of Lords.

But isn't he really more like Hitler?



The Labour MPs Ann Moffat and Tom Harris have also compared Salmond to Hitler, so there must be something in it.

But is he really more like Slobodan Milosevic?



Or is he like Benito Mussolini, as Lord Foulkes has said?

Or like Josef Stalin, as Alan Cochrane wrote in The Telegraph?

Or like Robert Mugabe as Lord Cormack, Conservative peer, and Jeremy Paxman, BBC journalist, have insinuated?

Or like Ian Smith of Rhodesia, as Lord Cormack also stated?

Or like Genghis Khan as Kevin McKenna said in The Guardian?

Or like Caligula as John Macleod said in The Times?

Or like Nicolae Ceausescu as Neil Collins said in the Financial Times?

Or like Nero as Annabel Goldie, Conservative MSP, said in the Scottish Parliament?

at least no-one's actually paying me for my crappy "opinions".....

....we missed the obvious one though....



...no wonder they used the "scottish" accent....

[Stephen Morgan]

Alex Salmond is like.... Thomas Jefferson said Searcher from R.I.

Always sexing his slaves?

[semper occultus]

Cia very efficient, hence lack of nationalised industries.

I wouldn't want a law against born Scots being allowed in Parliament, as long as we can get rid of all the ones currently in there, and set up nice big immigration barriers to stop them getting back in. We shouldn't be your dumping ground anymore. Liam Fox can apply for citizenship in the new UK and be denied like anyone else from a third-world kleptocracy, then be booted back over the wall by Group4's private anti-immigration force, like they do to everyone else from foreign lands. Maginot-ify the Wall, obviously.

You keep your dregs, we'll keep ours, rather than having to find room to accomodate all yours too.

.....the armed forces 'll be interesting though...plenty of Scots "dregs" in there that we would miss...aren't they about half the SAS or something.....?

I wouldn't have thought alot of the tough-nuts currently in the British Army being that keen to sign-up for a Salmond-friendly new model independent defence force & scotch whisky distillery protection force (...with overseas postings to North Sea oil rigs in the middle of winter ) when they could be taking out terrorist rag-heads on some sexy nato mission behind enemy-lines & coining-it from one of the many publishing opportunites that follow inevitably thereafter....