McKenna: Girl of the Year 2012

[MayDay]

you've got an unpleasant enlighteneder-then-thou attitude.

No, it just seems that way to you because you have nothing positive or original to contribute to any conversation of significant depth. Also, you are a misogynistic crank and your sex life is probably pathetic because of this. I would imagine that is why you spend your time dragging down the quality of conversation on this board, and I am not going to suggest for you to do something different because I don't give a fuck about you or your miserable little existence.

You'll be taking a week-long break from the board for this personal attack, undead.

WTF Thats way too harsh.

Indeed.

I can understand- simply due to the reference to Morgans' sex life, and that last bit about not giving a #@%^... which was uncalled for, but everything else was spot on.

[MayDay]

J
As far as "proselytizing," I mean obviously when you have a completely life-changing experience you want to share it. I badly want others to see what I've seen, felt what I've felt. It's completely ineffable. Words are all we have, though, so I try to use them to convince people to have the experience and explain how to get there, as McKenna did.

dido.

However, I disagree with the Timothy Leary approach of mass-proselytizing. I think it's about quality, not quantity.

What, exactly, did Leary preach? Did he encourage people who were already using the drug to use it more wisely, to higher ends, or did he encourage people to use it as a party drug?

At a time when there was mass hysteria and disinfo surrounding the substance, Leary went out of his way to emphasize the potential for spiritual awakening latent in the responsible use of the substance, and encouraged people to use it to it's highest potential. He gets a lot of flak for his so-called proselytizing, but most of the people hearing his message were either already using it or were preparing to.

Personally, my goal in this regard is to try to try to get people who have already had psychedelic experiences (I include conscious cannabis smoking in that) to actually encounter the Logos. There is no hyperbole that exists to describe this dimension.
I mean, my primary mission is exploring these places myself. Talking to others about them is tertiary. But if I hadn't ever read McKenna I never would have had the proper outlook and knowledge to get there myself, so I can't discount that.

Commendable. Keep it up.

[quote]I think it has a lot to do with the fact that McKenna went the all-natural route. There is a huge difference between synthetic or semi-synthetic substances and plant psychedelics.[quote]

"When I was young I would take LSD once a month or so, but I wasn't that crazy about it. I found it abrasively psychoanalytical, and I found it very hard to hallucinate."
-Terrance McKenna

Sounds to me like he couldn't handle L. Sounds like he had ' bad trips'. Not uncommon, even among so called enlightened mystics.

[wordspeak2]

I don't think so, MayDay; in fact, I know McKenna didn't have what you'd call bad trips. I took acid several hundred times and share McKenna's view on it. Basically, it's no psilocybin mushroom or DMT. It can turn on your creativity and do a lot of good, but visions are nowhere near as distinct as with mushrooms, you simply don't trip anywhere near as intensely as if you do mushrooms right, and you can take all the acid in the world and you won't encounter the seemingly transdimensional beings that you're engaging with sixty seconds after smoking DMT.

I wouldn't personally call acid "abrasively psychoanalytical"; I think it brought out that aspect of McKenna's personality, but still... I think if you're going to really explore psychedelic dimensions there's time when you graduate from acid. And I don't think Timothy Leary ever did that. I think he was kind of a goofball. He was a drunk, for one thing, which says a lot right there. He became a stereotyped character of himself, calling for acid for the masses. Not that he didn't have some brilliance, as well, and I'm not totally against him as a historical figure. I guess it's sort of like comparing acid to mushrooms- if all that existed were the former I would be impressed, but knowing about the latter makes the former seem almost trite. Not to mention he was actively opposed to mass political organizing, which is just lame.

Re undead he was a victim of bad timing. Moderators are saying stop the personal attacks, and I support the spirit of that.

[Joe Hillshoist]

The insulting is a little uncalled for, undead, but, Stephen, your perspective is based completely on ignorance because you've never taken these substances. You make yourself look like an idiot. Mushrooms are the exact opposite of glue-sniffing or binge-drinking. It's not really a debate; it's just a matter of people who have used plant entheogens and people who haven't. The latter is uninformed on the matter.

People say the same about LSD. No-one seems to say the same about crack, but I don't know why not.

No, obviously you don't. Clearly they are exactly the same.

And, unlike LSD it wasn't invented by a huge pharmaceutical giant, it wasn't used in CIA mind control experiments, it hasn't been shown to rewire your brain permanently to turn you into a pervert.

All of those statements are factually incorrect.

As far as I'm concerned when you fuck about with your own brain you lose the right to assess your own experience.

Possibly the most fascist comment I've seen on an anti fascist board. Not that religion involves "fucking around with your own brain". At all.

You're all just one step from huffing glue from a little plastic bag, but unlike a glue-sniffer you've got an unpleasant enlighteneder-then-thou attitude.

They're personal attacks too, calling myself and a bunch of other people who may not have used psychedelics for years "one step from huffing glue". You're a Christian (allegedly) - which means you're obviously a fundy and being a fundy means you lose the right to comment on anything anyone else does. It also means you're one step from becoming a child abuser and instituting pogroms and inquisitions against people who think differently.

See what I did there?

[wordspeak2]

That's a good point, Joe; I'd say that was a personal attack on Stephen's part, as well, and I would agree with labeling fascist the notion that we lose the right to- basically think freely- if we've taken any substance. Consciousness alteration is the most natural thing in the world; people have done it throught history and crave it from an early age. And the bit about acid turning you into a pervert is- what? I don't even know. Bizarrely immature, at the least. But I don't want to let Stephen's ignorance drag down the thread.

Here's a classic eight-minute McKenna clip on DMT; worth a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6p9tC4_ ... ure=g-vrec

[Bruce Dazzling]

you've got an unpleasant enlighteneder-then-thou attitude.

No, it just seems that way to you because you have nothing positive or original to contribute to any conversation of significant depth. Also, you are a misogynistic crank and your sex life is probably pathetic because of this. I would imagine that is why you spend your time dragging down the quality of conversation on this board, and I am not going to suggest for you to do something different because I don't give a fuck about you or your miserable little existence.

You'll be taking a week-long break from the board for this personal attack, undead.

WTF Thats way too harsh.

Indeed.

I can understand- simply due to the reference to Morgans' sex life, and that last bit about not giving a #@%^... which was uncalled for, but everything else was spot on.

As I said here yesterday...

...be on notice that from this moment forward, if I see a personal attack, you'll be punished with a board suspension.

Debate is fine.

Passionate debate is fine, but as per board rules, personal attacks are off limits.

Period.

Keep arguments issue-based.

We (the mods) can't be everywhere all of the time, and we're bound to miss some infractions. If you feel that that is the case, send us a heads-up via PM.

This has been a great site for all of us for a long time.

Let's keep it that way.

As for Mr. Morgan, his 'six degrees of drug using' criticism wasn't a personal attack, although it was ill advised, and if he goes there again, he will be suspended.

That's an official warning.

This, on the other hand, is definitely personal attack, no matter how you parse it:

you've got an unpleasant enlighteneder-then-thou attitude.

No, it just seems that way to you because you have nothing positive or original to contribute to any conversation of significant depth. Also, you are a misogynistic crank and your sex life is probably pathetic because of this. I would imagine that is why you spend your time dragging down the quality of conversation on this board, and I am not going to suggest for you to do something different because I don't give a fuck about you or your miserable little existence.

Don't do it, or you'll be suspended.

[Weather Balloons]

Now hiring for explorers into this realm.

I've still never tried a large enough dose myself, but I'm planning on it as soon as I can. I've had about an eighth a few times, and those times have been quite beneficial to my overall psyche I feel. I've never really "hallucinated" so to speak, basically just had an overwhelming sense that everything is connected and noticed more synchronicities than usual. I've only really gotten into Terence McKenna in the past year or so though (incidentally right after I last had mushrooms, though I first came across him years ago from reading RAW) and I have sadly not come across them again in that time. I'm sure it will happen soon enough though, and your endorsement/affirmation helps wet the appetite. DMT sounds very interesting as well, though that's something I have no experience with yet. Anyways, thanks for all the contributions to this thread.

[MayDay]

Touches on lots of what we've been discussing, across the board. Check it out:



15:21
Terrance:

"See, my assumption, in trying to think about thousands of psychedelic trips, rather than just mine- what they seem to do, generically, is- they seem to dissolve boundaries. And the ego is in the business of creating, maintaining, and defending boundaries- so, I really see psychedelics as directly intervening in the core process- which is running us over the edge- which is our inability to emotionally connect with the consequences of what we're doing- if for a single moment we could feel what we're doing- We would stop."

[MayDay]

This has been a great site for all of us for a long time.

Let's keep it that way.

Right on & amen. Thanks, mods!

Now...

uh...

could you bring the ladies back?

Just sayin.

[NaturalMystik]

NaturalMystik- I've never had a full-blown salvia experience, so I can't say exactly. From what I've heard you're right as far as the mind-blowing intensity; salvia can be that wild. But there's something completely unique about that alien encounter with DMT/mushrooms, according to McKenna and some others. But since I haven't been there on salvia I can't speak to it exactly. I plan to really give it a go at some point, and peyote or San Pedro cactus, as well.

On the flipside I've never had the full blown psilocybin experience, so I can only speak to my research as well. I really must grab the bull by the horns and go for the full 5 grams as prescribed. I've read a lot of about DMT and the Strassman research is quite compelling, however I'm no chemist and have never come across DMT in the real world. With the exception of ayawaska, but puking my guts out and not having a legit shaman on hand doesn't seem very appealing. So in the mean time I'll continue to cultivate DMT through meditation and dreams...

There apparently exists another "dimension." Exact language aside this is simply a fact. Beings in this dimension are friendly and wish to communicate with us; many people experience profound universal knowledge/wisdom. What McKenna coined "luv" is rained down on you by whatever-it-is;

Speaking back to the Salvia, ^^^^ that was most certainly not my experience... The 'machine elves' were very annoyed by my presence. There was a very wtf are you doing here kind of feeling. It may be just a reflection of my own mental state and insecurities. Or it may also be that Saliva sends you to lower realms while psylocibin sends you to higher places. There does appear to at least be a circumstantial case to support this idea, it seems by in large that Salvia tends to lead to a 'darker' experience. I can't help but feel there is a gatekeeper at work, solve the riddle, prove your worthy and then we'll let you eat the apple.

[Stephen Morgan]

There's a significant amount of evidence that points towards the crack cocaine/CIA symbiosis. Gary Webb's entire late career, for example.

Yes, running it as a business. LSD they just handed out for free in bulk. Crack was a business. The CIA are the microsoft of drugs.

[Stephen Morgan]

People say the same about LSD. No-one seems to say the same about crack, but I don't know why not. Very energising. Pleasant enough to be habit-forming. A great pick-me-up in the morning, and if it's too muich you can have some smack to take the edge off

Bullshit. Crack is not 'pleasant enough to be habit forming', it's addictive enough to be habit forming, duh.

Well, it certainly is more-ish.

For many users it's really not a pleasant experience at all, and neither is the intense craving that quickly follows the relatively short, intense burst of, um, 'energy' the high provides.

That's why people chain drink coffee. Of course you're less likely to have instant crack lying around the office, so it's less convenient.

It also teaches you nothing about yourself and the world around you, it reinforces selfish, egotistical behavior patterns, and causes you to do horrible things to people you once loved.

Nothing teaches you anything if you're unwilling to learn. None are so blind as those who refuse to see. You can't get quicker than a Kwik-fit fitter, unless you give him crack.

Again, set and setting (thank you, Leary). The CIA used the drug in combination with all manner of tortures to the subjects involved. They had no idea of the true nature of the chemical compound they were dealing with, except that it caused whatever the subject was experiencing to be intensified exponentially.

Yeah, they experimented for over a decade but still had "no idea" about it's "true nature". Then, they promoted it to the youth and handed it out gratis to hippies, thereby promoting it's use. Which Acid Dreams claims was a blunder, but which was in fact a prime CIA operation for several years.

The physical and emotional environment that the cia created for the subjects of their tests was the exact opposite set of conditions that informed/ experienced users strive to surround themselves with when using this chemical.

A lot of their tests were on themselves, not just on people they were torturing to death. They even tested the stuff on an elephant. Your ignorant blanket proclamations are baseless.

Guilty as charged. Proud little faggot pervert here. Sure beats the fuck out of the alternative- repressed, guilty, awkward, never truly able to let go and feel the wild, brain changing ecstasy of uninhibited physical and spiritual connection between two (or more) bodies, to feel it so completely that the others' pleasure becomes your own and vice versa. (edit)- I'd like to know where lsd has "been shown to rewire your brain permanently to turn you into a pervert." That sounds like utter bullshit to me. Sources??

You just said it was guilty as charged.

http://www.psychedelic-library.org/JCBODY.HTM

I know Stephen will probably ignore this. Oh well.

The ramblings of a deluded fool. He's looking at a flower. It being spring I've also been looking at flowers. They're very nice. I see the flowers. They are flowery. He sees the delusive products of his own drug-addled brain. He thinks it's beautiful, but when I used to consume alcohol I thought just about everything was extremely funny. I still enjoy a good comedy show, but I don't laugh at metal latticework anymore.

These drugs aren't around because they broaden your mind any more than a roller-coaster, or alcohol or toxo-plasmosis. They shit out dopamine and oft-times rewire your brain for their own benefit. So I'm sure LSD/DMT/mescalin makes you see very pretty things, which aren't really there, just like a mental patient does, and it makes you think differently, as might a severe concussion, or whatever happened to Charles Manson, or electro-shock therapy.

Also, DMT makes you talk like this:

...yes, *exactly.* People go to hyperspace. It's a real thing; it's completely undeniable. Peoples' exact stories aren't the same, but there are distinct similarities, very similar entities, etc. There apparently exists another "dimension." Exact language aside this is simply a fact. Beings in this dimension are friendly and wish to communicate with us; many people experience profound universal knowledge/wisdom. What McKenna coined "luv" is rained down on you by whatever-it-is; this is a force far greater than sexual attraction; it is indescribably pleasing. As a species on the whole we've barely barely begun to even wade in these waters, and the oceans seems near-infinite.

I think I'll steer clear.

Anyway, for a real high you need laughing gas.

That's a good point, Joe; I'd say that was a personal attack on Stephen's part, as well, and I would agree with labeling fascist the notion that we lose the right to- basically think freely- if we've taken any substance.

Not the right, the ability. I dare say the rats with toxoplasmosis go around telling all their rodent friends how they've been turned on to the brilliant smell of cat urine and the transdimensional mewling of the big furry chaps. Then they get eaten.

Which was the point of the glue sniffers thing, all you psychedelic fanatics go on and on and on and on and on and on and on about you mind expanding experiences and your spiritual enlightenment and about how other people just can't understand. It's like nothing so much as listening to people talk about how incredible their shits are since they started on Alpen, or how their brand of bottled water is just tres fabuloso and all those people on tap water just don't understand the meaning of the word wet. So I thought I'd puncture the absurd self-regarding pomposity by pointing out that it's just drug use. The big difference is that glue sniffers can keep their mouths shut, not run off at them.

Consciousness alteration is the most natural thing in the world; people have done it throught history and crave it from an early age. And the bit about acid turning you into a pervert is- what? I don't even know. Bizarrely immature, at the least. But I don't want to let Stephen's ignorance drag down the thread.

LSD lowers sexual inhibitions. Permanently, not just until your liver gets to work like alcohol.

If you know so little about it, you shouldn't put it in your body.

you've got an unpleasant enlighteneder-then-thou attitude.

No, it just seems that way to you because you have nothing positive or original to contribute to any conversation of significant depth. Also, you are a misogynistic crank and your sex life is probably pathetic because of this. I would imagine that is why you spend your time dragging down the quality of conversation on this board, and I am not going to suggest for you to do something different because I don't give a fuck about you or your miserable little existence.

You'll be taking a week-long break from the board for this personal attack, undead.

WTF Thats way too harsh.

I had a response all typed out, then hit submit and saw he'd been suspended. All that work wasted.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Steven you come across as a mysoginist crank and even play up that role at times. maybe the comment about getting laid was a bit harsh too, but ... I'm sure you're tough enough to take it. And... anyway I'll have to take that up with bruce on another thread.

As far as I'm concerned when you fuck about with your own brain you lose the right to assess your own experience.

That is what you said my friend. You may have a point if you'd use the term "ability" (personally I disagree but thats beside the point right now) but you said "the right". That is a significant difference.

LSD lowers sexual inhibitions. Permanently, not just until your liver gets to work like alcohol.

Given the inhibited nature of society when LSD was popularized why is that a bad thing? Sexual inhibitions can lead to things like catholic priests and the problems their celibacy causes.

Which was the point of the glue sniffers thing, all you psychedelic fanatics go on and on and on and on and on and on and on about you mind expanding experiences and your spiritual enlightenment and about how other people just can't understand. It's like nothing so much as listening to people talk about how incredible their shits are since they started on Alpen, or how their brand of bottled water is just tres fabuloso and all those people on tap water just don't understand the meaning of the word wet. So I thought I'd puncture the absurd self-regarding pomposity by pointing out that it's just drug use. The big difference is that glue sniffers can keep their mouths shut, not run off at them.

Its just drug use to you. To some people its religious experience to others its inspiring. To some medical researchers it shows that "something" is going on tho what ... well it's associated with greater well being and permanent positive changes in peoples lives. There may well be issues with drug use including psychedelic drugs like shrooms, salvia and DMT. Perhaps you could address them instead of repeating some puritans bias' uncritically. Although I must admit I do have some sympathy with that paragraph, despite its obvious errors, I still think most of what you say beyond the irritation with people who think their farts smell great after smoking DMT is flat out wrong.

[Stephen Morgan]

And, Stephen, people have used these substances all throughout history. It's not "fucking about with your brain." It's connecting with a nature spirit. DMT is in fact *found inside our brains.* It's endogenous. What it is is exploring aspects of our souls and perhaps the universe, at the very least some spirit on Earth, that are usually suppressed by our consumerist society. The truth lies in the experience; you have to have the experience to judge it. Crack has a very dark energy and does not lead the user to brilliantly indescribable landscapes. And what MayDay said.

Well, heaven forfend that we should expose ourselves to dark energies. Otherwise, you might have hit the nail on the head. Those opposed to our consumerist society end up retreating into delusions created by their own minds rather than working to bring about a better world.

The role of the CIA vis-a-vis LSD in the sixties is a totally separate conversation. Probably a lot of folks here are familiar with the book "Acid Dreams," which is imho a great primer on the subject. LSD is LSD; it's only so interesting. It's not going to take you into hyperspace. Hyperspace is the great mystery.

Doesn't exist. I've read Acid Dreams, it's entirely pro-LSD propaganda. Amounts to a cover-up of what the CIA were up to. And personally I think the world's foremost intelligence agency and elite front encouraging the use of the most prominent hallucinogen might be relevant to the effects hallucinogens have on the human mind.

[Stephen Morgan]

Steven you come across as a mysoginist crank and even play up that role at times. maybe the comment about getting laid was a bit harsh too, but ... I'm sure you're tough enough to take it. And... anyway I'll have to take that up with bruce on another thread.

I regard toughness as a far greater virtue than aptitude as a pussy hound, certainly.

As far as I'm concerned when you fuck about with your own brain you lose the right to assess your own experience.

That is what you said my friend. You may have a point if you'd use the term "ability" (personally I disagree but thats beside the point right now) but you said "the right". That is a significant difference.

The right to assess, yes. Do you think I'm the King of Siam, pronouncing upon the proscription of certain statements? You can say what you like, but I don't have to take it seriously. If you take LSD then bang on about how much broader your mind is now, you're like a drunk saying "I'm alright to drive", you can say it, but it's not to be taken as a valid assessment. Could even be true, however unlikely it obviously seems. Drunks are sometimes sober. But it's not an assumption you can safely make.

LSD lowers sexual inhibitions. Permanently, not just until your liver gets to work like alcohol.

Given the inhibited nature of society when LSD was popularized why is that a bad thing? Sexual inhibitions can lead to things like catholic priests and the problems their celibacy causes.

Hmm. Do you honestly think celibacy turns people into predatory paedophiles?

Which was the point of the glue sniffers thing, all you psychedelic fanatics go on and on and on and on and on and on and on about you mind expanding experiences and your spiritual enlightenment and about how other people just can't understand. It's like nothing so much as listening to people talk about how incredible their shits are since they started on Alpen, or how their brand of bottled water is just tres fabuloso and all those people on tap water just don't understand the meaning of the word wet. So I thought I'd puncture the absurd self-regarding pomposity by pointing out that it's just drug use. The big difference is that glue sniffers can keep their mouths shut, not run off at them.

Its just drug use to you. To some people its religious experience to others its inspiring. To some medical researchers it shows that "something" is going on tho what ... well it's associated with greater well being and permanent positive changes in peoples lives.

Permanent changes in peoples lives. Permanent changes in the brain. Permanent changes some people have been promoting for their own end. Premanent changes seem as positive by scientists, whether acid-heads or scions of the statistical establishment. But "positive changes" is a value judgement.

There may well be issues with drug use including psychedelic drugs like shrooms, salvia and DMT. Perhaps you could address them instead of repeating some puritans bias' uncritically. Although I must admit I do have some sympathy with that paragraph, despite its obvious errors, I still think most of what you say beyond the irritation with people who think their farts smell great after smoking DMT is flat out wrong.

This is fundamentally a philosophical dispute. Call it puritan bias if you like, although I'm clearly a cavalier, but I like seeing things as they are. I don't want to be deluded, no matter how many elves I think I've met when I wake up. I definitely don't want to subject my brain to permanent alterations based on substances advocated by my enemies in the CIA and the occultist community without knowing exactly in minute detail what they do. I've pursued lucid dreaming because I don't even want my subconscious tricking me. I've trained my memory so it won't play tricks on me, I've read up on advertising, hypnosis, prestidigitation, so that I can see what is real rather than what is presented. I have read up on archetypes and prejudices so that I can be based on facts rather than fairy tales. I have read up on psychotronic technologies and the principles behind them, so as to spot them in action elsewhere. So why on earth would I want to take substances with unpredictable long-term effects on perception and thought patterns, even on morality, and which are specifically designed to warp perception and are promoted by people who would like me to think in ways contrary to my best interests and my current ideal thought patterns?

It'd be like getting a nose ring. Ugly, inconsistent with my general aesthetic, highly impractical and easy to lead me around by.