. A controversial thread title, I know. But a necessary one, at this juncture in our history. It has achieved the status of received wisdom in this country that our Prime Minster Margaret Thatcher (1979–1990), now Baronness Thatcher for the forseeable future, was either an evil genius who ushered in an era of increasing economic and financial oligarchy and exploitation (the opinion of the left) or was just awesome in all ways (the opinion of the right). There are those in the middle who believe that what she did was necessary, however hard it may have been on those affected, due to the perceived disproportionate political power of the trades unions at the time, and the increasing manufacturing competition from overseas which appeared to render large sectors of British industry, particularly mining and heavy industry (ship building, steel works, etc.) uneconomical and inefficient.
I have found a Third Way. Here is another explanation for the economic, social, and foreign policies we all witnessed or experienced in the eighties. Thatcher was thick as a brick. So was everyone who believed in and supported her. All of them. Without exception. Sure, she helped to invent a way to keep ice cream soft when she was a research chemist - but at that point, I contend, her usefulness ceased.
Everything that Thatcher did while in office had the exact opposite effect to that which she had intended. Other than destroying the working class by breaking the unions and the industries, she achieved fuck all, in fact she achieved less than fuck all - she excelled in achieving absolutely everything that nobody wanted.
Start at the start. Thatcher said she wanted to reduce unemployment and inflation. But in the first two years of her administration Scotland lost a fifth of it's workforce to the dole queue (we don't just hate her for nothing, btw). Did she reduce dependence on benefits? No. My grandad used to vote Tory in the Thatcher years because it was the only government that ever increased his dole above inflation. Somehow, though, this rise in unemployment was meant to drive down inflation. As the Governor of the Bank of England Eddie George said in much more recent times: "Unemployment in the north is a price worth paying to curb inflation in the south." Fair enough, I suppose.
Yet inflation went up, in both the north and the south, and would continue to rise throughout her reign, as would unemployment, reaching a historic (admitted) peak of over three million by the time she left office. Nicely done.
Unemployment, eh? In order to massage the numbers of people they were throwing out of work, the Thatcher government decided it would be a good idea to classify healthy people as disabled or incapacitated. That way the unemployment figures wouldn't look quite as scary. This was done, and we see the results now - a brand new generation of Tories are engaged in virulently attacking the produce of the last generation of Tories' policies, which they worship, while blaming it all on Labour.
Then she wanted to show the IRA how tough she was. She was lucky that the IRA hunger strikes, led by Bobby Sands, began around this time, giving her an opportunity to display resolve to the British public. The IRA hunger strikes were aimed at securing recognition as political prisoners, simply by being allowed to wear civillian clothing while in jail. Thatcher had good (global) strategic reasons to deny IRA members a recognised status as political prisoners (even though they had been allowed this status before). Amnesty International would've been all over it. Plus, they were actually criminals, by law, under the rules of the time, so it should all have been quite a simple....
But no.... Even this she managed to fuck up. She neither showed iron resolve, nor capitulated to their demands. She hemmed and hawwed. She said they could starve if they chose to in public, while entering into negotiations through MI6 in private. Due to her public stance, Bobby Sands was elected as an MP in absentia to the Westminster Parliament - a massive legitimazing moment in the IRA's campaign of the time, in fact in it's entire history. Then when the civillian clothes were finally delivered to the prisons Thatcher ensured they would not actually be handed out to the prisoners for them to wear - which was the worst of both worlds. Not a bait and switch so much as a bait and taunt.
Ten men starved to death in continued protest, IRA recruitment spiked massively as a result, the Brighton Hotel was bombed 3 years later nearly killing Thatcher herself, and shortly after that point the British government was forced to enter into constant back-channel talks with the IRA where it had to concede everything that wasn't already nailed down. Genius.
The miner's strike - okay, she suceeded in breaking the working class, and that was her aim, but I mean c'mon. Did she have any real concept of what she was dealing with? Did any of them? Here's one of her chief economic advisers at the time, Alan Budd.
Did they think it was called the Chicago School for a laugh?
Anyway, there are many more examples of Thatcher's backfiring policy decisions (not the least of them being the current Scottish independence debate - as the old SNP hand Jim Sillars says: "If we're ever building statues to the people who brought about Scottish independence, Margaret Thatcher will have to be among them") but I am tired.
Anyways, I think there may be a perception among some people here that I hate Thatcher simply because I am Scottish and she is a Tory, and I have looked no further than that. This is not the case. I have read her biography by Jon Sergeant, and Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain, and a decent proportion of Thatcher's own private papers released under the thiry years rule, including her decision to put army intelligence agents into the CND and her tacit support for the Economic League (which still exists today under different guises).
My research has led me to the conclusion that she was not in fact Britain's greatest post-war Prime Minister, but was, and is, as thick as a big massive shite taken by an angry horse into a barrel of treacle. In winter.
With that said, Mr. Chairman, I ask that this motion be passed.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
I think humans have a really hard time dealing with institutions mentally, conceptually. We need to talk about "our" government and military. We need to talk about Bush because it's so much work to understand his cabinet and actual power network -- harder still to understand the larger ego system that sprawling social map is just a tiny, tiny fraction of. Men like David Addington only exist in fiction for most Americans. Which means they live in his world.
I don't necessarily think, however, that policy failure is really an indication of intelligence or management talent -- we are all at the mercy of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
The thing is that Thatcher is seen as a figurehead and a totem by both the left and the right in this country. It's not my argument here that either is wrong. All I'm saying is that she personally was a bit thick, and would not have been allowed to become Prime Minister otherwise.
A systemic failing there.
She was the right kind of thick. Intelligent (in a way, as her chemistry background shows) and pragmatic, but with no common sense at all. The weirdest thing about her is that she is still often conjured as having been the last "common sense" Prime Minister of Britain. But she had no real sense about anything at all as far as I can tell - and this is from biographies written by her admirers. Everything she did was straight out dumb. She only had common sense if you're the kind of person who thinks political correctness has gone mad.
She always did the same exact thing in every situation too (Falklands and miner's strike excepted, mainly due to outside intervention in those cases). She had one single political tactic while in office. First she realised (to her credit) that either outright antagonism or complete capitulation to her opponent at the time would be disastrous. Then she did both. And to the maximum.
Anyways.... Addington. Jesus Christ. Good luck with that.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
AhabsOtherLeg wrote:The thing is that Thatcher is seen as a figurehead and a totem by both the left and the right in this country. It's not my argument here that either is wrong. All I'm saying is that she personally was a bit thick, and would not have been allowed to become Prime Minister otherwise.
Well, we're certainly in agreement there. The ecosystem selects.
Indeed. I found myself wondering recently why the Prime Minister was a millionaire, why his father was a millionaire, why his grandfather was a millionaire, why his wife was a millionaire, why his father-in-law was a millionaire, why his appointed Chancellor was a millionaire and why his appointed Work and Pensions secretary was a millionaire.
It suddenly occurred to me that they had all earned it fairly by the sweat of their brow, through personal merit, and any suspiscions I might harbour to the contrary about such a conglomeration of millionaires around the seats of regal power and public policy were the result of nothing more than my own obssessive self-hatred, failure in life, and belief in class warfare.
It was at this point that I became a debt-collector for an agency sub-contracted to the government, and thenceforth dined well, was free and merry, and knew thenceforth my place. Yay, I have done the state some service, and they know it.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
Well, your thesis seemed to rest on the assumption that her stated aims were in fact her aims, whereas surely they were a. get more personal wealth and power into her family b. smash working class power c. undermine the welfare state. The rest was smokescreen, hence the reason she consulted with her hairdresser for policy. What will the masses buy as policy while I get on with the real stuff, I know, ask an ignorant servant. All people, everywhere, love to have a scapegoat for their problems. She delivered them over and over. Not just during her time, but even unto our present time. As you demonstrate, now the disabled are costing too much, and should be the ones to take the brunt of the austerity created by the banks.
blankly wrote:Well, your thesis seemed to rest on the assumption that her stated aims were in fact her aims, whereas surely they were a. get more personal wealth and power into her family b. smash working class power c. undermine the welfare state.
My thesis rests there still, good blankly, exactly where you have put it. There is no contradiction. She lied and lied again and always shall. History rolls on, and proves my case. They lie for their own benefit.
blankly wrote:All people, everywhere, love to have a scapegoat for their problems. She delivered them over and over. Not just during her time, but even unto our present time. As you demonstrate, now the disabled are costing too much, and should be the ones to take the brunt of the austerity created by the banks.
Aye. Well, that's it. You and anybody else of actual need should be heading up here now, into the Northron Wastes You'll be welcome. The one thing we've never had a surplus of is people. Good use will be made of you all!
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
And at the same time, here in America we had a thick-as-shite dolt named Reagan. The real PTB must have had thier reasons for providing us with idiot puppets whose stated goals were largely similar.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic wrote:And at the same time, here in America we had a thick-as-shite dolt named Reagan. The real PTB must have had thier reasons for providing us with idiot puppets whose stated goals were largely similar.
deregulation of the financial sector?
"Now that the assertive, the self-aggrandising, the arrogant and the self-opinionated have allowed their obnoxious foolishness to beggar us all I see no reason in listening to their drivelling nonsense any more." Stanilic
Nordic wrote:And at the same time, here in America we had a thick-as-shite dolt named Reagan. The real PTB must have had thier reasons for providing us with idiot puppets whose stated goals were largely similar.
deregulation of the financial sector?
The tip of the iceberg. Deregulation of everything. Destruction of organized labor. The consolidation of the media, the co-opting of it for the corporatocracy, the rise of talk radio and Rush Limbaugh, the gobsmackingly ludicrous notion that environmental protection (formerly a hugely bipartisan effort) was for "tree huggers" and bleeding heart "liberals", the rise of newspeak (making the word "liberal" a bad word), the rewriting of history, rampant anti-intellectualism, trickle-down economics, the massive brainwashing that made a great percentage of the population believe that all of these things were good things .....
All of which led us to where we are today, with a free press gone, organized labor mostly gone, democracy itself gone, privacy gone, and the New Fascism firmly in place.
Idiots for leaders. Idiots as role models. Being an idiot, it's a good thing, something to emulate.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
A scary thought: Idiots generally think they're smart. The dumber they are, the smarter they think they are. And in reverse; The smarter someone is, the dumber the idiot think they are. Thatcher and Reagan were both elected, which probably means the majority thought they were pretty smart.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
General Von Manstein of the German Officer Corps, said that there are only four types of officer. First there the lazy, stupid ones. Leave them alone , they do no harm. Second, there are the hard working intelligent ones. They make excellent staff officers, ensuring that every detail is properly considered. Third, there are the hard working stupid ones. These people are a menace and must be fired at once. They create irrelevant work for everybody. Finally, there are the intelligent lazy ones. They are suited for the highest office.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
Guys, did I come in here a week or so ago and start raving about Margaret Thatch.... aw hell naw!
I kind of apologise for this thread. It was not well-planned, and none of the points I meant to make in it were made in it by me (thankfully Brekin did it all for me though, more or less, with a single quote... and Nordic too in his post).
I apologise to blankly for going all portentuous Shakespearian on him/her in my last reply there. It was the result of having a bottle of vodka and watching that new version of Richard II that was on BBC 2 recently not long before signing in to RI. My reply to blankly was kind of still spun by the fantastic dialogue and acting from that brilliant production even hours later when i was pished as a newt and destined for bed.
Anyways, this thread had a not-very-good and ill-judged OP - it was mostly just an excuse to post the short Alan Budd interview about there being "people behind the people who..." - but I'm grateful that you guys were able to take it and make something pretty decent out of it.
The central point stands. She wasn't all that bright, much like Reagan, and "many dark actors" were hugely empowered by the lack of brain-power or political/economic knowledge amongst the leadership of the time. This doesn't excuse Thatcher's persisting belief that General Pinochet was wonderful, or Reagan's obvious knowledge of Iran-Contra, but it does explain it a bit. Obviously it is ongoing.
Last edited by AhabsOtherLeg on Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."
DrEvil wrote:A scary thought: Idiots generally think they're smart. The dumber they are, the smarter they think they are. And in reverse; The smarter someone is, the dumber the idiot think they are. Thatcher and Reagan were both elected, which probably means the majority thought they were pretty smart.
This is called the Dunning-Kruger Effect. I should've just called the thread that. It explains a hell of a lot that takes place in all walks of life, and in every area.
"The universe is 40 billion light years across and every inch of it would kill you if you went there. That is the position of the universe with regard to human life."