Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?

[compared2what?]

Canadian_watcher is getting her wish.

Sigh. I hope you don't mean this:

Not really. There was just something about being lectured for my presumed lack of outrage at acts of political injustice and repression by someone who's (a) apparently not even aware that more than six people with well-known names in North America are regularly subjected to it; and *b) stonily indifferent to the trial and sentencing of Pussy Riot on the grounds that something about balaclavas and 24/7 coverage just doesn't add up.

It must be terrible to have no interests outside of oneself. Boring, too.

Still, fascism is alive and well in America. Or so it seems to me.

That's definitely true.

[brainpanhandler]

to debate whether or not something is fascist by DEGREE is mindless.

Hmmm, no, not really. There really aren't any absolutes when it comes to fascist forms, it seems to me and we're not likely to all come to some consensus on the defintion, so all that's left is outlining the perameters of the continuum of fascism. Not mindless at all.

that's what is (trying) to happen here.

That is what is happening here to some extent and I don't think the thoughts so far expressed in this thread are "mindless" at all, with a few notable exceptions. Like for instance equating C2W with Limbaugh.

Fascism = fascism whether or not that means that the state punishes by death or jail sentence for dissenters.

Fascism = fascism. Got it. Thread done.

If people are not free to question their government in front of their government without fear of reprisal, you are living under a fascist-leaning regime.

Wait... "fascist leaning" regime. Alright, now I've got it.

The degree is only worth discussing insofar as you can say "it's this bad now, and if they get away with it it is just going to get worse."

Wait again, Jeez... So fascism = fascism, except when it's only fascist leaning and then we can discuss how bad it's gonna get if we don't do something. Now I got it. No further discussion required. Thanks.

[compared2what?]

to debate whether or not something is fascist by DEGREE is mindless.

that's what is (trying) to happen here.

Fascism = fascism whether or not that means that the state punishes by death or jail sentence for dissenters.

just as

Racism = racism whether or not the racist expresses him/herself by murder or ostracism.

That isn't what I said.

If people are not free to question their government in front of their government without fear of reprisal, you are living under a fascist-leaning regime. The degree is only worth discussing insofar as you can say "it's this bad now, and if they get away with it it is just going to get worse."

this point has already been eloquently made, I know.

I'd actually say that myself that we were living under a fascist-leaning regime, as well as in a fascist-leaning society. And I actually have said things that went a lot further than "If they get away with this, it is just going to get worse." (Although, as it happens, those were practically my exact words when [i]Bush v. Gore[/i was decided: "If they get away with this, they'll think they can get away with anything.")

I just wouldn't say we were living under fascism.

[brainpanhandler]

Still, fascism is alive and well in America. Or so it seems to me.

That's definitely true.

We just don't live in a fascist state.

Maybe the term should be reserved for a very select set of criteria.

What label then would you put on our happy little utopia, if you had to?

[DrEvil]

Jack wrote:
"Among other things, fascism is a kind of political reaction and degeneration that visits modern and modernizing societies when they enter severe economic crisis."

This is a very good point. I'm starting to think that maybe fascism (or at least aspects of it, like the need for strong leaders to tell you what to do) is the ground state of human nature.
If you look at the big picture, democracy is just a blip towards the end of human history. Two centuries of democracy out of 2000+ centuries of humans, and every time things start looking bad we revert to authoritarianism. It's hardwired into our brains.

[2012 Countdown]

Jack wrote:
"Among other things, fascism is a kind of political reaction and degeneration that visits modern and modernizing societies when they enter severe economic crisis."

This is a very good point. I'm starting to think that maybe fascism (or at least aspects of it, like the need for strong leaders to tell you what to do) is the ground state of human nature.
If you look at the big picture, democracy is just a blip towards the end of human history. Two centuries of democracy out of 2000+ centuries of humans, and every time things start looking bad we revert to authoritarianism. It's hardwired into our brains.

I'm sure you thought of this and have qualifyers, but the Greeks? Iriquois? Jefferson would also argue, according to T. Hartmann, that it is democracy that prevails in flocks and packs of animals, based on observation of their behavior.

(back to lurk mode in this thread)

Oh, one last thing from me, I say Corporatism as almost fascism. I maybe sloppily use them too interchangeably. Mussolini's words of them being together. But corporatism is the objective. A little of this -ism and that -ism to achieve the main goal of corporate rule, and certainly authoritarian.

[Canadian_watcher]

Jack wrote:
"Among other things, fascism is a kind of political reaction and degeneration that visits modern and modernizing societies when they enter severe economic crisis."

This is a very good point. I'm starting to think that maybe fascism (or at least aspects of it, like the need for strong leaders to tell you what to do) is the ground state of human nature.
If you look at the big picture, democracy is just a blip towards the end of human history. Two centuries of democracy out of 2000+ centuries of humans, and every time things start looking bad we revert to authoritarianism. It's hardwired into our brains.

Well, I don't know.. I think that it's hardwired into SOME brains, by means perhaps of training from infancy. Others of us (and there are a GREAT many of us, I believe) never took to the training. The problem is one of good versus evil - that's a little simplistic but bear with me - ... "Good" won't go where "Evil" goes, and so we need critical mass of those of us who are NOT hardwired to authoritarian thinking to trump those who are.

If we are to go with the flow of some of the big brains (so called) on this thread we would sit back and let it get a lot worse before we stand up against it. But, to paraphrase the verse: ain't nobody 'good' gonna be left to stand with us if we do that.

"It's *only* a free speech zone - fer fuck's sake ! if this were a REAL fascist state they'd open fire on protesters! Anyone claiming that there is fascism here is a fucking blowhard who neva been opposite real clip anyway.

Crazy talk.

"Right now they are ONLY outlawing abortion in a coupla places. Why worry? That's no threat to the bodily integrity of women WHERE I LIVE, so go complain where it's appropriate!!"

Yeah, all right, you've got a point there. and by turning our backs on those who are being harmed by the legislation we're sure going to get a running start at fighting it when it comes to our own backyards - not to mention all the "Good" (vice evil) friends we're going to pick up along the way.

"At least there's no draft!"

Sure and there are no jobs, either. Canon fodder pays. Draft shmaft.

I'm degrading the quality of the discourse.

true

[compared2what?]

"It's *only* a free speech zone - fer fuck's sake ! if this were a REAL fascist state they'd open fire on protesters! Anyone claiming that there is fascism here is a fucking blowhard who neva been opposite real clip anyway.

You're mistaken.

I have to admit that it's kind of amusing to be vilified and condemned for multiple thought crimes and presumed acts of decadent moral cowardice by someone simply for having disagreed with the meaning she assigns to one of the words in her preferred party line, when that word is "fascism."

Crazy talk.

"Right now they are ONLY outlawing abortion in a coupla places. Why worry? That's no threat to the bodily integrity of women WHERE I LIVE, so go complain where it's appropriate!!"

Yeah, all right, you've got a point there. and by turning our backs on those who are being harmed by the legislation we're sure going to get a running start at fighting it when it comes to our own backyards - not to mention all the "Good" (vice evil) friends we're going to pick up along the way.

"At least there's no draft!"

Sure and there are no jobs, either. Canon fodder pays. Draft shmaft.

I never said that or anything remotely like it.

I'm degrading the quality of the discourse.

true

You're talking to yourself, so I guess it's your call.

[barracuda]

If people are not free to question their government in front of their government without fear of reprisal, you are living under a fascist-leaning regime. The degree is only worth discussing insofar as you can say "it's this bad now, and if they get away with it it is just going to get worse."

In the US, people are free to challenge the laws of their government before the courts, and guess what? They do! All the time! And those laws even get changed sometimes!!

In Myanmar, there is no judiciary at all. The distinction is meaningful, imo. And non-illusory, ftm.

[compared2what?]

If we are to go with the flow of some of the big brains (so called) on this thread we would sit back and let it get a lot worse before we stand up against it.

^^Red Guard and intellectual. But the basic theme's a totalitarian evergreen.

[compared2what?]

If we are to go with the flow of some of the big brains (so called) on this thread we would sit back and let it get a lot worse before we stand up against it.

^^Red Guard and intellectual. But the basic theme's a totalitarian evergreen.

Also, wait. This:

we would sit back and let it get a lot worse before we stand up against it.

Seriously, how did you arrive at THAT?

What led to the tantrum you're throwing is (precisely) that I don't agree that there's no point in standing up against it.

[Canadian_watcher]

"It's *only* a free speech zone - fer fuck's sake ! if this were a REAL fascist state they'd open fire on protesters! Anyone claiming that there is fascism here is a fucking blowhard who neva been opposite real clip anyway.

You're mistaken.

I have to admit that it's kind of amusing to be vilified and condemned for multiple thought crimes and presumed acts of decadent moral cowardice by someone simply for having disagreed with the meaning she assigns to one of the words in her preferred party line, when that word is "fascism."

Crazy talk.

"Right now they are ONLY outlawing abortion in a coupla places. Why worry? That's no threat to the bodily integrity of women WHERE I LIVE, so go complain where it's appropriate!!"

Yeah, all right, you've got a point there. and by turning our backs on those who are being harmed by the legislation we're sure going to get a running start at fighting it when it comes to our own backyards - not to mention all the "Good" (vice evil) friends we're going to pick up along the way.

"At least there's no draft!"

Sure and there are no jobs, either. Canon fodder pays. Draft shmaft.

I never said that or anything remotely like it.

I'm degrading the quality of the discourse.

true

You're talking to yourself, so I guess it's your call.

Miss:

that you are choosing to take this personally is your own problem.

[dada]

Soft fascism. A mild fascism that has the capability to turn into full blown fascism anywhere whenever it wants, and does fairly often here and there, but isn't totally totalitarian. But a fair bit more than halfitarian.

[dada]

When I watch the president give his state of the union address, I feel I am living under fascism. I can call it soft fascism if it makes you feel better.

When the too big to fail banks got bailed out, it felt like fascism.

Reading the paper, any paper take your pick, it feels like fascism.

Watching the crowds chant USA in support of our imperialist wars, fascism.

Sometimes it seems like as long as they don't go as far as the Nazis, they can get away with murder.

[barracuda]

If, then, the definition of fascism is gonna be "whatever feels to me like fascism", or "stuff I don't like", or "somebody did something bad to me", or "I got a parking ticket I didn't deserve", can we at least spell it differently for those purposes? Like, let's call it phashism or something.