The 2012 "Election" thread

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:47 am

thatsmystory wrote:Analogy:

You go to a restaurant and the waiter says our choices are spoiled milk and rotten chicken salad. Which one do you want?

Do you say I want the spoiled milk because it will only lead to a few hours of vomiting?


No. Before calling the Health Department I would, however, tell everyone in the restaurant that this analogy is completely worthless toward understanding anything about the 2012 US presidential election, and urge them to try empirical examination of the facts relevant to said election as a methodology better than making up metaphors that fit my preferred argument as if these constitute a logical proof.

For one thing, there is no other restaurant. Or if you prefer, there will be no world available after Nov. 6 wherein the winner isn't the spoiled milk or the rotten chicken salad.

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby thatsmystory » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:03 am

I understand a vote for Obama in order to prevent Romney from openly advocating for Shock Doctrine policies.

The counterargument is that Obama is Shock Doctrine-lite. Why blame voters who recognize this and want no part in it?

It seems somewhat disingenuous to claim that "hold your nose" Obama votes are heroically inclined while 3rd party votes are made by fools whose sanctimonious pride is leading them astray.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby compared2what? » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:20 am

compared2what? wrote:I don't fear Romney. But he's been bought and paid for by people like Sheldon Adelson, to whom he will owe a war with Iran or something very much like one if he's elected. That's not a certainty because the future isn't written. But it's also not an obscure or ambiguous thing. People like Sheldon Adelson don't fucking invest thirty-six million of their own dollars in a presidential candidate if they're not realistically expecting a return on their investment. And it's not difficult to figure out what manner of return is expected in this particular case. Sheldon Adelson only has one interest.


On consideration, I think it's a lot more likely that Romney's being paid to greenlight an Israeli assault on Iran than it is that he's being paid to assail them with U.S. forces. Because, you know. What U.S. forces?

You never know, though. I didn't think that Bush/Cheney would be able to sustain the war in Iraq without instituting the draft, way back when. They (obviously) didn't have the troops for an engagement that was (obviously) going to be much, much longer and more difficult than they were saying it would. But it turned out that I forgot to factor in (a) that they didn't actually care whether they won or not, conventionally speaking; (b) Blackwater, etc.; and (c) how badly they were willing to abuse the troops they did have.

__________________-

My point: The details aren't predictable. But sometimes the broad outlines (as in: There will be a war with X/Y/Z, which will be a bloodbath/apocalypse/never-ending nighmare, or whatever) are.
Last edited by compared2what? on Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby compared2what? » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:33 am

thatsmystory wrote:I understand a vote for Obama in order to prevent Romney from openly advocating for Shock Doctrine policies.

The counterargument is that Obama is Shock Doctrine-lite. Why blame voters who recognize this and want no part in it?


First of all:

Who is blaming voters for recognizing and wanting no part of Obama-as-Shock-Doctrine-Lite? ***

I didn't. You're the one who introduced the concept of blame.

And second of all:

I fucking recognize and want no part of that. As it happens. But since that doesn't prevent me from also recognizing that neither voting nor not voting will actually get me what I want, it doesn't seem like all that sufficient a response to just leave it at that..

It seems somewhat disingenuous to claim that "hold your nose" Obama votes are heroically inclined while 3rd party votes are made by fools whose sanctimonious pride is leading them astray.


Third-party voting has been appropriately applauded by everyone, I'm pretty sure. Also, if the hold-your-nose argument has been made, I missed it.

________________

***(I'm not sure that's really what he is, exactly. But whatever. I know what you mean.)

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby justdrew » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:23 am

if romney wins, it will mean a vast diversion of resources (human attention) away from drones and toward little things like battles over judges, other appointments, all sorts of domestic issues. With Obama at least a few things will be in better hands and we could concentrate on fewer more serious issues. By 'we' I mean Everyone. romney wins, vast resources are going to be wasted fighting about medicare, social security, etc.

Every "3rd party" could get just as much or better return on their investments by running publicity campaigns rather than political campaigns at this point. Once they've built up candidates in local state etc elections, then run for national office. In the mean time, endorse the least bad option, unless their truly wasn't one. I can see us getting there, but we're not there yet.

No one asks how the house and senate will organize when/if many 3rd parties were elected. Guess what? It would still come down to majority/minority coalition.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:04 am

Project Willow wrote:

Iamwhomiam wrote:

So let's stop with the moralizing; everyone will do as they feel they should for whatever their reasons.


If advocating for the cessation of brutality is moralizing... oh, nevermind. People just don't care, it doesn't matter how bleeding heart you say you are, nobody gives a shit about any criminal state activity, unless it happens to their sister, and even then...

Iamwhomiam wrote:

We talk about how mysteriously and utterly fixed the game is and that there is nothing at all we can do to alter the future. Should Obama be re-elected our military-industrial complex will not vanish but if Romney's elected he'll nourish and grow the heartless bloody beast. In your name. With your taxes.


That is just not an accurate picture of what is happening. There is no one who could have and has been more effective at growing the MIC than Obama, for the very simple reason that he is not opposed in his efforts. People are all bound up in their fears and illusions of the opposition and their delusions about who Obama really is. It's all perfectly on script, the one the ptb is using to turn us into a fully fascist state. As you've just announced, the illusion of Obama along with the reality of his right wing activity is supported by your vote. I agree with Mr. Ford, he is the more effective evil, and voting for him is a huge mistake.

http://blackagendareport.com/content/why-barack-obama-more-effective-evil
He is the More Effective Evil because Black Folks – historically, the most progressive cohort in the United States – and Liberals, and even lots of folks that call themselves Marxists, let him get away murder! Yet, people still insist on calling him a Lesser Evil, while he drives a stake through Due Process of Law.


http://www.democracynow.org/2012/9/7/effective_evil_or_progressives_best_hope
So, you’re painting—this is the attempt of people who want to defend Obama from the left—you attempt to say that he’s a victim of all these Republican forces, but in fact he is the initiator, from within the Democratic Party, of these austerity measures. He is the initiator of preventive detention. Preventive detention, which is—savages the Bill of Rights, I think it basically abolishes the rule of law in this country. It was just a theory under Bush. It was a presidential opinion that inherent in the presidency was the right to detain, to lock up, and throw away the key forever, anybody, including U.S. citizens designated by the president. But that was just the president’s opinion. It fell to President Obama to nurture and guide through Congress a bill, actual legislation, that brings for the first time to the United States a preventive detention without trial. That is making history. That’s part of the Obama legacy. And that was not a Republican concoction, you see.

And that makes him the lesser of two evils, not because he is more evil than the Republicans even, certainly not than Hitler, as you tried to put on us. It’s because he can accomplish, because people like yourself insist, even though you acknowledge most of these crimes that I’ve elucidated have been committed under his watch, even though you acknowledge this, you continue to support him, and you make him a fait accompli, and you allow him to bring in more and more of the right-wing agenda, which then passes, in ways that the Republicans could never get it passed, just as George Bush could never complete his assault on Social Security. These Republicans couldn’t do it, either. They can’t—they can’t put the ax to Medicaid and Medicare. They don’t have the power. But, if President Obama puts his muscle behind the $4 trillion of cuts, then the deed is done. That makes him the more effective evil.


Also left out is Obama's continuation of Preemptive Prosecutions of Muslims.

"If advocating for the cessation of brutality is moralizing... oh, nevermind. People just don't care, it doesn't matter how bleeding heart you say you are, nobody gives a shit about any criminal state activity, unless it happens to their sister, and even then..."

Unfortunately, your second sentence is generally true, but not just about criminal state activity, but just about anything that doesn't somehow have a direct and bloody effect upon them. Hell, most people don't even know their neighbor's names or even care to. As far as your first sentence goes, that's the argument I'm making for voting for Obama.

My comment on moralizing... it was said as a peace offering, nothing more. We should accept that everyone will do as they see fit, vote or not vote, regardless of our arguments here and regardless of whom is killing whom for whim or supposed reason. As a matter of fact, I feel your vote for Stein will result in increased brutality should Romney become elected. So we're pointing our fingers at each other and claiming the same thing, and only time will tell us whose choice was the best choice.

But let me explain my rationale and perhaps you'll better understand my reasoning for choosing to vote for Obama, while acknowledging the bad guy that he is. And it has nothing at all to do with the actions of our military or saving battlefield lives. But a vote for Obama will save lives whereas a vote for Romney will cost lives, innocent lives. And I'm comfortable in my decision.

PW wrote:
If advocating for the cessation of brutality is moralizing... oh, nevermind. People just don't care, it doesn't matter how bleeding heart you say you are, nobody gives a shit about any criminal state activity, unless it happens to their sister, and even then...


You see Willow, I believe my vote for Obama will save lives, thousands of lives, and so, I too am voting to minimize brutality. I doubt you'll immediately understand that as it seems contrary to your thinking, so I'll explain the best I can.

We've been working for years to get certain airborne pollutants regulated and we're closer than ever to seeing some stringent controls placed upon certain emissions, mercury, soot or carbon black and particulates are of primary concern, but other chemicals too are included in the proposed new EPA regulations. Limiting mercury is 20 years past due according to the Clean Air Act amendments of 1990 & 1992. In fact, we had to sue the EPA to get them to act and we had a deadline set for the date the regulations would become effective.

However, Romney's camp retaliated by attaching S. 1392 to must-pass legislation, repeatedly. Now I don't imagine you or anyone else here understands the ramifications of S. 1392 or its House counterpart, H.R. 2250. So far, we've prevented its passage. If it ever passes, thousands of innocents will be made sick and thousands will die.

On July 20, 2011, Sens. Susan Collins (R-ME),Ron Wyden (D-OR), Lamar Alexander (R-TN), Mary Landrieu (D-LA), Pat Toomey (R-PA) and Mark Pryor (D-AR) introduced a bill (S. 1392) that would give industries a free pass to secretly burn a range of dangerous wastes, including treated wood, plastics and scrap tires, in facilities that do not have to control, monitor or report their toxic emissions. The bill would also cause many thousands of premature, preventable deaths by delaying industrial boiler health standards for at least 3 years.

S. 1392 Will Kill Thousands of Americans Every Year and Permanently Damage the Clean Air Act, Which Has Protected Public Health for Decades.

S. 1392 Should Be Opposed for Three Major Reasons:

1) It will increase toxic air pollution by permanently exempting industrial waste incinerators from Clean Air Act protections, allowing many industrial facilities to secretly burn wastes without controlling, monitoring or reporting their toxic pollution. The bill specifically exempts plants that burn a long list of materials that are highly dangerous when burned, including turpentine, treated wood products, plastics, scrap tires and spent chemicals and solvents.

2) It will cause the premature deaths of between 7,500 and 19,500 people, and quite probably, many thousands more.

3) It will make permanent the excessive pollution from industrial boilers by forcing the EPA to issue weak standards that allow even the worst polluters to evade control requirements.

Permanent_Damage_Senate.pdf


My rationale, well most of it, for choosing to cast my vote for baby killing drone master Obama lies in point 2 quoted above. Obama's EPA will help to save thousands of lives every year he holds office while Romney has pledged to dismantle the EPA and remove its regulatory authority over polluting industries, effectively and knowingly killing and sickening many thousands of American citizens, primarily those at greatest risk, the very young and the very old.

And Willow, about this:
Project Willow wrote:
Iamwhomiam wrote:
"We talk about how mysteriously and utterly fixed the game is and that there is nothing at all we can do to alter the future. Should Obama be re-elected our military-industrial complex will not vanish but if Romney's elected he'll nourish and grow the heartless bloody beast. In your name. With your taxes.

That is just not an accurate picture of what is happening. There is no one who could have and has been more effective at growing the MIC than Obama, for the very simple reason that he is not opposed in his efforts. People are all bound up in their fears and illusions of the opposition and their delusions about who Obama really is. It's all perfectly on script, the one the ptb is using to turn us into a fully fascist state. As you've just announced, the illusion of Obama along with the reality of his right wing activity is supported by your vote. I agree with Mr. Ford, he is the more effective evil, and voting for him is a huge mistake."


First, I don't think any but perhaps a few of our posters are naive or delusional about whom Obama is, but fears of the opposition and their capabilities are indeed rational and in fact, warranted. I would agree with you that Obama has grown our military over the past four years, but I disagree that he has been unopposed.

And please stop saying my vote for him is a sign of support. Clearly, it is not.

It is a vote of conscience by my choice to limit harm, to minimize unwarranted and untimely deaths and impaired lives. It is a vote against Romney. And it's the only thing I or anyone else can legally do to prevent Romney's election.

With Obama, we will have stronger environmental protections afforded us than we would if Romney were to be elected, so in that one very narrow way I do support that aspect of his administration.

I've focused upon one regulation of the hundreds being written. I work mostly on environmental issues. Other friends are very active fighting the Preemptive Prosecution of Muslims and others still vigorously oppose war. I trust and ally myself with these folks, but these are not my focus areas. We all cannot be involved in every pressing issue and must depend upon our trusted allies for information about things they're focused upon and we are not.

My choice is the correct choice for me. I would never claim that your vote for Stein, also decided by your conscientious consideration, would exacerbate the killing by whomever is elected, though that would be true if Romney were to be elected. It's your decision and that's the right choice for you whether I feel your mistaken or not.

This is a general statement to all:
It may be too late, but it's still worth trying to become more engaged in your government than voting every two, four or six years. If you're pissed off about drones killing civilians, tell your senators and your representatives in Congress. Call them. Write them letters. Let them know they are your representatives. Visit them at their offices with five or a hundred of your allies. Try in every way you can to take control of your so-called democracy. Or sit back and stay uninvolved politically and live as sustainably as you can outside of the system. But please, getting riled up over poor choices after being uninvolved for years or forever and then venting here is disingenuous and as artificial as our messiah wannabe Romney.

By the way, the nuclear reactor in San Onofre has been leaking Hydrogen for weeks. Just like Fukushima did before it blew. Nuclear power is an environmental nightmare and a ticking time bomb.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:29 am

thatsmystory wrote:It seems somewhat disingenuous to claim that "hold your nose" Obama votes are heroically inclined while 3rd party votes are made by fools whose sanctimonious pride is leading them astray.


That would be so wrong to claim! Good thing you've pointed this out, well in advance of anyone having claimed it.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:02 pm

Hurricane Sandy Power Outages Could Make Voting Impossible in Half a Dozen States Where Electronic Voting is Only Option for Voters
By BRAD FRIEDMAN on 10/29/2012, 4:35am PT
"History is being written as an extreme weather event continues to unfold, one which will occupy a place in the annals of weather history as one of the most extraordinary to have affected the United States," the Weather Channel's Senior Meteorologist Stu Ostro is warning. "This is an extraordinary situation, and I am not prone to hyperbole."

The National Weather Service has been telling us over the past several days that the serious impact of the super storm which is Hurricane Sandy is not to be underestimated. But there is another concern that has been keeping me awake over the past week or so.

NBC's Al Roker spelled out that concern briefly on Sunday's Meet the Press, explaining what I've been worrying about since it became clear that the storm could have serious ramifications on Election Day.

I'm not talking about the political ramifications about its effect on planned campaign events between now and Election Day, on Early Voting turnout, or even how it's handled by President Obama and FEMA, etc. I'm talking about the serious question of whether voters will be able to vote on Election Day at all, particularly in states which force voters to use electronic voting systems at the precincts.

"We expect massive power outages throughout the area," Roker told NBC's David Gregory (before Gregory hurried to ignore the comment entirely.) "As the system moves on shore it's going to be a long term effect. It's going to last for about 72 hours. And so we're talking about people who could be without power for at least 10 days. That, as you know, will take it right into Election Day. So what will people do if they can't get to the voting booth, or the voting booths don't have power?"

Good question, Al. And one we've warned about here for a number of years.

There are about a half a dozen states (listed below) directly in harm's way where voters are forced to use 100% unverifiable electronic voting systems on Election Day. In those locations, unless they have enough emergency paper ballots printed up to accommodate the entire electorate at precincts where power remains disrupted on Election Day, there could be very serious and unprecedented problems...


While most electronic voting systems have some kind of battery backup system, presuming those batteries are charged and actually working (there are no guarantees of even that), they may still only allow for some 3 or 4 hours of use.

Moreover, many polling locations now use electronic poll books, rather than paper, to sign voters in to vote. In short, this could be more of a disaster in the making than folks realize right now as they, justifiably, worry about far more immediate concerns such as personal safety.

With power outages at the precinct, jurisdictions which use paper ballots and paper poll books will, at least, be able to allow voters to vote, even if those ballots can't be tallied at the precinct on local optical scanners on Election Day. At least those ballots can be tabulated later (presuming the chain of custody remains secure, etc.) either by hand or by centralized (if flawed and manipulatable) optical-scanners. In short, at least people will be able to vote.

But where voters are forced to rely only on electronic touch-screen systems, if power is not restored by November 6th, we could be facing one of the problems that The BRAD BLOG has long warned about as just another reason why it's insane to rely on such systems for voting. Ever.

The states now in immediate harm's way where most voters are forced to vote on electronic touch-screen systems on Election Day across much of the state include:

North Carolina
Virginia
West Virginia
Maryland
Pennsylvania
New Jersey
A number of counties in Ohio, as well as most of Tennessee --- though neither state is quite as directly in the path of the worst of the storm --- also require voters to vote electronically on Election Day.

I hope they all have some serious back-up plans in the works, though at this late date, I suspect, it may be difficult to print up as many paper ballots as would be needed in some of the worst-case scenarios.

I don't usually recommend Early Voting --- by far, the best way to increase the chances of your vote being counted and counted accurately is to cast it, on paper, on Election Day --- but in any of the locations listed above, in jurisdictions where voters are otherwise forced to vote on electronic systems on November 6th, voting early this year, or, better yet, by absentee paper ballot if you're able, might be a very smart idea.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:50 pm

The progressive case against Obama
Bottom line: The president is complicit in creating an increasingly unequal -- and unjust -- society
By Matt Stoller, Salon
Saturday, Oct 27, 2012

A few days ago, I participated in a debate with the legendary antiwar dissident Daniel Ellsberg on Huffington Post live on the merits of the Obama administration, and what progressives should do on Election Day. Ellsberg had written a blog post arguing that, though Obama deserves tremendous criticism, voters in swing states ought to vote for him, lest they operate as dupes for a far more malevolent Republican Party. This attitude is relatively pervasive among Democrats, and it deserves a genuine response. As the election is fast approaching, this piece is an attempt at laying out the progressive case for why one should not vote for Barack Obama for reelection, even if you are in a swing state.

There are many good arguments against Obama, even if the Republicans cannot seem to muster any. The civil liberties/antiwar case was made eloquently a few weeks ago by libertarian Conor Friedersdorf, who wrote a well-cited blog post on why he could not, in good conscience, vote for Obama. While his arguments have tremendous merit, there is an equally powerful case against Obama on the grounds of economic and social equity. That case needs to be made. For those who don’t know me, here is a brief, relevant background: I have a long history in Democratic and liberal politics. I have worked for several Democratic candidates and affiliated groups, I have personally raised millions of dollars for Democrats online, I was an early advisor to Actblue (which has processed over $300 million to Democratic candidates). I have worked in Congress (mostly on the Dodd-Frank financial reform package), and I was a producer at MSNBC. Furthermore, I aggressively opposed Nader-style challenges until 2008.

So why oppose Obama? Simply, it is the shape of the society Obama is crafting that I oppose, and I intend to hold him responsible, such as I can, for his actions in creating it. Many Democrats are disappointed in Obama. Some feel he’s a good president with a bad Congress. Some feel he’s a good man, trying to do the right thing, but not bold enough. Others think it’s just the system, that anyone would do what he did. I will get to each of these sentiments, and pragmatic questions around the election, but I think it’s important to be grounded in policy outcomes. Not, what did Obama try to do, in his heart of hearts? But what kind of America has he actually delivered? And the chart below answers the question. This chart reflects the progressive case against Obama.

Image

The above is a chart of corporate profits against the main store of savings for most Americans who have savings — home equity. Notice that after the crisis, after the Obama inflection point, corporate profits recovered dramatically and surpassed previous highs, whereas home equity levels have remained static. That $5-7 trillion of lost savings did not come back, whereas financial assets and corporate profits did. Also notice that this is unprecedented in postwar history. Home equity levels and corporate profits have simply never diverged in this way; what was good for GM had always, until recently, been good, if not for America, for the balance sheet of homeowners. Obama’s policies severed this link, completely.

This split represents more than money. It represents a new kind of politics, one where Obama, and yes, he did this, officially enshrined rights for the elite in our constitutional order and removed rights from everyone else (see “The Housing Crash and the End of American Citizenship” in the Fordham Urban Law Journal for a more complete discussion of the problem). The bailouts and the associated Federal Reserve actions were not primarily shifts of funds to bankers; they were a guarantee that property rights for a certain class of creditors were immune from challenge or market forces. The foreclosure crisis, with its rampant criminality, predatory lending, and document forgeries, represents the flip side. Property rights for debtors simply increasingly exist solely at the pleasure of the powerful. The lack of prosecution of Wall Street executives, the ability of banks to borrow at 0 percent from the Federal Reserve while most of us face credit card rates of 15-30 percent, and the bailouts are all part of the re-creation of the American system of law around Obama’s oligarchy.

The policy continuity with Bush is a stark contrast to what Obama offered as a candidate. Look at the broken promises from the 2008 Democratic platform: a higher minimum wage, a ban on the replacement of striking workers, seven days of paid sick leave, a more diverse media ownership structure, renegotiation of NAFTA, letting bankruptcy judges write down mortgage debt, a ban on illegal wiretaps, an end to national security letters, stopping the war on whistle-blowers, passing the Employee Free Choice Act, restoring habeas corpus, and labor protections in the FAA bill. Each of these pledges would have tilted bargaining leverage to debtors, to labor, or to political dissidents. So Obama promised them to distinguish himself from Bush, and then went back on his word because these promises didn’t fit with the larger policy arc of shifting American society toward his vision. For sure, Obama believes he is doing the right thing, that his policies are what’s best for society. He is a conservative technocrat, running a policy architecture to ensure that conservative technocrats like him run the complex machinery of the state and reap private rewards from doing so. Radical political and economic inequality is the result. None of these policy shifts, with the exception of TARP, is that important in and of themselves, but together they add up to declining living standards.

While life has never been fair, the chart above shows that, since World War II, this level of official legal, political and economic inequity for the broad mass of the public is new (though obviously for subgroups, like African-Americans, it was not new). It is as if America’s traditional racial segregationist tendencies have been reorganized, and the tools and tactics of that system have been repurposed for a multicultural elite colonizing a multicultural population. The data bears this out: Under Bush, economic inequality was bad, as 65 cents of every dollar of income growth went to the top 1 percent. Under Obama, however, that number is 93 cents out of every dollar. That’s right, under Barack Obama there is more economic inequality than under George W. Bush. And if you look at the chart above, most of this shift happened in 2009-2010, when Democrats controlled Congress. This was not, in other words, the doing of the mean Republican Congress. And it’s not strictly a result of the financial crisis; after all, corporate profits did crash, like housing values did, but they also recovered, while housing values have not.

This is the shape of the system Obama has designed. It is intentional, it is the modern American order, and it has a certain equilibrium, the kind we identify in Middle Eastern resource extraction based economies. We are even seeing, as I showed in an earlier post, a transition of the American economic order toward a petro-state. By some accounts, America will be the largest producer of hydrocarbons in the world, bigger than Saudi Arabia. This is just not an America that any of us should want to live in. It is a country whose economic basis is oligarchy, whose political system is authoritarianism, and whose political culture is murderous toward the rest of the world and suicidal in our aggressive lack of attention to climate change.

Many will claim that Obama was stymied by a Republican Congress. But the primary policy framework Obama put in place – the bailouts, took place during the transition and the immediate months after the election, when Obama had enormous leverage over the Bush administration and then a dominant Democratic Party in Congress. In fact, during the transition itself, Bush’s Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson offered a deal to Barney Frank, to force banks to write down mortgages and stem foreclosures if Barney would speed up the release of TARP money. Paulson demanded, as a condition of the deal, that Obama sign off on it. Barney said fine, but to his surprise, the incoming president vetoed the deal. Yup, you heard that right — the Bush administration was willing to write down mortgages in response to Democratic pressure, but it was Obama who said no, we want a foreclosure crisis. And with Neil Barofsky’s book ”Bailout,” we see why. Tim Geithner said, in private meetings, that the foreclosure mitigation programs were not meant to mitigate foreclosures, but to spread out pain for the banks, the famous “foam the runway” comment. This central lie is key to the entire Obama economic strategy. It is not that Obama was stymied by Congress, or was up against a system, or faced a massive crisis, which led to the shape of the economy we see today. Rather, Obama had a handshake deal to help the middle class offered to him by Paulson, and Obama said no. He was not constrained by anything but his own policy instincts. And the reflation of corporate profits and financial assets and death of the middle class were the predictable results.

The rest of Obama’s policy framework looks very different when you wake up from the dream state pushed by cable news. Obama’s history of personal use of illegal narcotics, combined with his escalation of the war on medical marijuana (despite declining support for the drug war in the Democratic caucus), shows both a personal hypocrisy and destructive cynicism that we should decry in anyone, let alone an important policymaker who helps keep a half a million people in jail for participating in a legitimate economy outlawed by the drug warrior industry. But it makes sense once you realize that his policy architecture coheres with a Romney-like philosophy that there is one set of rules for the little people, and another for the important people. It’s why the administration quietly pushed Chinese investment in American infrastructure, seeks to privatize public education, removed labor protections from the FAA authorization bill, and inserted a provision into the stimulus bill ensuring AIG bonuses would be paid, and then lied about it to avoid blame. Wall Street speculator who rigged markets are simply smart and savvy businessmen, as Obama called Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Dimon, whereas the millions who fell prey to their predatory lending schemes are irresponsible borrowers. And it’s why Obama is explicitly targeting entitlements, insurance programs for which Americans paid. Obama wants to preserve these programs for the “most vulnerable,” but that’s still a taking. Did not every American pay into Social Security and Medicare? They did, but as with the foreclosure crisis, property rights (which are essential legal rights) of the rest of us are irrelevant. While Romney is explicit about 47 percent of the country being worthless, Obama just acts as if they are charity cases. In neither case does either candidate treat the mass of the public as fellow citizens.

Now, it would not be fair to address this matter purely on economic grounds, and ignore women’s rights. In that debate with Ellsberg, advocate Emily Hauser insistently made the case that choice will be safe under Obama, and ended under Romney, that this is the only issue that matters to women, and that anyone who doesn’t agree is, as she put it, delusional. Falguni Sheth argued that this is a typical perspective from a privileged white woman, who ignores much of the impact that Barack Obama’s policies have on women, and specifically women of color. And even on the issue of choice, you could make a good case, as she does, that there’s less of a difference between Obama and Romney than meets the eye.

Sheth’s piece is persuasive. Barack Obama is the president who hired as his lead economic advisor Larry Summers, a man famous for arguing that women are genetically predisposed to being bad at math. Unsurprisingly, Anita Dunn, a White House adviser, later called the Obama White House a “hostile work environment” for women, in large part because of the boys club of Rahm Emanuel and Larry Summers. Obama is the president who insisted that women under 17 shouldn’t have access to Plan B birth control, overruling scientists at the FDA, because of his position ”as a father of two daughters.” Girls, he said, shouldn’t be able to buy these drugs next to “bubble gum and batteries.” Aside from the obvious sexism, he left out the possibility that young women who need Plan B had been raped by their fathers, which anyone who works in the field knows happens all too often. In his healthcare bill, Obama made sure that government funds, including tax credits and Medicaid that are the key to expanding healthcare access to the poor, will be subject to the Hyde Amendment, which prohibits their use for abortion. It’s not clear what will happen with healthcare exchanges, or how much coverage there will be for abortion services in the future.

As Sheth also notes, there is a lot more to women’s rights than abortion. Predatory lending and foreclosures disproportionately impact women. The drug war impacts women. Under Obama, 1.6 million more women are now in poverty. 1.2 million migrants have been deported by the Department of Homeland Security. The teacher layoffs from Obama’s stimulus being inadequate to the task disproportionately hit women’s economic opportunity. Oligarchies in general are just not good for women.

In terms of the Supreme Court itself, Obama’s track record is not actually that good. As a senator, Obama publicly chided liberals for demanding that Sen. Patrick Leahy block Sam Alito from the Supreme Court. Meanwhile, Obama-appointed Supreme Court Justice Sonya Sotomayor has in her career already ruled to limit access to abortion, and Elena Kagan’s stance is not yet clear. Arguing that Romney justices would overturn Roe v. Wade is a concession that Senate Democrats, as they did with Alito and Roberts, would allow an anti-choice justice through the Senate. More likely is that Romney, like Obama, simply does not care about abortion, but does care about the court’s business case rulings (the U.S. Chamber went undefeated last year). Romney has already said he won’t change abortion laws, and that all women should have access to contraception. He may be lying, but more likely is that he does not care and is being subjected to political pressure. But so is Obama, who is openly embracing abortion rights and contraception now that it is a political asset. In other words, what is moving women’s rights is not Obama or Romney, but the fact that a fierce political race has shown that women’s rights are popular. The lesson is not to support Obama, who will shelve women’s rights for another three years, but to continue making a strong case for women’s rights.

The Case for Voting Third Party

So, what is to be done? We have an election, and you probably have a vote. What should you do with it? I think it’s worth voting for a third party candidate, and I’ll explain why below. But first, let’s be honest about what voting for Obama means. This requires diving into something I actually detest, which is electoral analysis and the notion of what would a pragmatist do. I tend to find the slur that one need be pragmatic and not a purist condescending and dishonest; no one ever takes an action without a reason to do so. Life is compromise. Every person gets this from the first time he or she, as a kid, asks his or her dad for something his or her mom won’t give him. If you are taking action in politics, you have to assume that you are doing it because you want some sort of consequence from it. But even within the desiccated and corroded notion of what passes for democracy in 2012, the claims of the partisans to pragmatism are foolish. There are only five or six states that matter in this election; in the other 44 or 45, your vote on the presidential level doesn’t matter. It is as decorative as a vote for an “American Idol contestant.” So, unless you are in one of the few swing states that matters, a vote for Obama is simply an unabashed endorsement of his policies. But if you are in a swing state, then the question is, what should you do?

Now, and this is subtle, I don’t think the case against voting for Obama is airtight. If you are willing to argue that Obama, though he has imposed an authoritarian architecture on the American system, is still a better choice than Romney, fine. I can respect honest disagreement. Here’s why I disagree with that analysis. If the White House were a video game where the player was all that mattered, voting for Obama would probably be the most reasonable thing to do. Romney is more likely to attack Iran, which would be just horrific (though Obama might do so as well, we don’t really know). But video game policymaking is not how politics actually works — the people themselves, what they believe and what they don’t, can constrain political leaders. And under Obama, because there is now no one making the anti-torture argument, Americans have become more tolerant of torture, drones, war and authoritarianism in general. The case against Obama is that the people themselves will be better citizens under a Romney administration, distrusting him and placing constraints on his behavior the way they won’t on Obama. As a candidate, Obama promised a whole slew of civil liberties protections, lying the whole time. Obama has successfully organized the left part of the Democratic Party into a force that had rhetorically opposed war and civil liberties violations, but now cheerleads a weakened America too frightened to put Osama bin Laden on trial. We must fight this thuggish political culture Bush popularized, and Obama solidified in place.

But can a third-party candidate win? No. So what is the point of voting at all, or voting for a third-party candidate? My answer is that this election is, first and foremost, practice for crisis moments. Elections are just one small part of how social justice change can happen. The best moment for change is actually a crisis, where there is actually policy leverage. We should look at 9/11, Katrina and the financial crisis as the flip side of FDR’s 100 days or the days immediately after LBJ took office. We already know that a crisis brings great pressure to conform to what the political establishment wants. So does this election. We all know that elites in a crisis will tell you to hand them enormous amounts of power, lest the world blow up. This is essentially the argument from the political establishment in 2012. Saying no to evil in 2012 will help us understand who is willing to say no to evil when it really matters. And when you have power during a crisis, there’s no end to the amount of good you can do.

How do we drive large-scale change during moments of crisis? How do we use this election to do so? Well, voting third party or even just honestly portraying Obama’s policy architecture is a good way to identify to ourselves and each other who actually has the integrity to not cave to bullying. Then the task starting after the election is to build this network of organized people with intellectual and political integrity into a group who understands how to move the levers of power across industry, government, media and politics. We need to put ourselves into the position to be able to run the government.

After all, if a political revolution came tomorrow, could those who believe in social justice and climate change actually govern? Do we have the people to do it? Do we have the ideas, the legislative proposals, the understanding of how to reorganize our society into a sustainable and socially just one? I suspect, no. When the next crisis comes, and it will come, space will again open up for real policy change. The most important thing we can use this election for is to prepare for that moment. That means finding ways of seeing who is on our side and building a group with the will to power and the expertise to make the right demands. We need to generate the inner confidence to blow up the political consensus, against the railings of the men in suits. If there had been an actual full-scale financial meltdown in 2008 without a bailout, while it would have been bad, it probably would have given us a fighting chance of warding off planetary catastrophe and reorganizing our politics. Instead the oligarchs took control, because we weren’t willing to face them down when we needed to show courage. So now we have the worst of all worlds, an inevitably worse crisis and an even more authoritarian structure of governance.

At some point soon, we will face yet another moment where the elites say, “Do what we want or there will be a meltdown.” Do we have enough people on our side willing to collectively say “do what we want or there will be a global meldown”? This election is a good mechanism to train people in the willingness to say that and mean it. That is, the reason to advocate for a third-party candidate is to build the civic muscles willing to say no to the establishment in a crisis moment we all know is coming. Right now, the liberal establishment is teaching its people that letting malevolent political elites do what they want is not only the right path, it is the only path. Anything other than that is dubbed an affront to common decency. Just telling the truth is considered beyond rude.

We need to build a different model of politics, one in which people who want a different society are willing to actually bargain and back up their threats, rather than just aesthetically argue for shifts around the margin. The good news is that the changes we need to make are entirely doable. It will cost about $100 trillion over 20 years to move our world to an entirely sustainable energy system, and the net worth of the global top 1 percent is $103 trillion. We can do this. And the moments to let us make the changes we need are coming. There is endless good we can do, if enough of us are willing to show the courage that exists within every human being instead of the malevolence and desire for conformity that also exists within every heart.

Systems that can’t go on, don’t. The political elites, as much as they kick the can down the road, know this. The question we need to ask ourselves is, do we?
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Project Willow » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:51 pm

Iamwhomiam wrote:
First, I don't think any but perhaps a few of our posters are naive or delusional about whom Obama is, but fears of the opposition and their capabilities are indeed rational and in fact, warranted. I would agree with you that Obama has grown our military over the past four years, but I disagree that he has been unopposed.

And please stop saying my vote for him is a sign of support. Clearly, it is not.


To those in power, it is absolutely a sign of support. It's like wearing an ironic mustache, no one but you has any idea it's supposed to be ironic.

Iamwhomiam wrote:It is a vote of conscience by my choice to limit harm, to minimize unwarranted and untimely deaths and impaired lives. It is a vote against Romney. And it's the only thing I or anyone else can legally do to prevent Romney's election.


I don't agree that an Obama presidency will mean less harm, obviously, I've already said so, but in case I wasn't clear enough, the guy is in bed with the people who harmed, and continue to threaten me. So in terms of my own immediate predicament, whichever of the two become president makes no difference, so please don't ask me or try to shame me into voting for those people. Alright, does that make sense? Even though Mr. Ford and others have argued admirably for my point of view on the election, there is a bit missing, and I don't know how to make my view clearer without risking sharing my personal experience, and I won't take the risk here of being explicit. Suffice it to say, I've unfortunately witnessed how at least some of the presidential sausage is made, and I'm not referring to conventional contexts or manipulations. I wish I could still believe that presidents have the amount of power that some here seem to think they do. It's essentially the same network behind both candidates. If enough of those folks care enough about your environmental regs, you'll lose them, regardless of who is president. If it's Obama, they should be even easier to wipe them away.

Too broad a swath of the public is still caught in a trauma bond with Obama, and doesn't resist his abuses the way they would with an obvious predator like Romney. I'd rather see that trauma bond broken, symbolically, and concretely, at the voting booth. Obama was such a brilliant op, they gave us a savior, and our first black president, and a great bait and switch, and this election is about measuring how long the enchantment endures. It's also about moving the discussion further to the right. When the network needs its extreme right wing re-energized, you'll see a Romney come to power. The more methodical in the network will argue there's too much work yet for the Obama enchantment to accomplish, like this lovely new piece of unconstitutional law in the NDAA that makes it even easier to have people disappeared. The hotheads want their fascist state now, but they risk losing it if they press too hard. I think Obama will continue in his role as the brilliant set-up boy for major abuses yet to come, more than likely, under a Republican president, and by then there really will be no point in voting at all.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:15 pm



Does the Romney Family Now Own Your e-Vote?
Friday, 19 October 2012 09:12 By Gerry Bello, Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman, The Free Press
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:30 pm

Project Willow wrote:
Iamwhomiam wrote:
First, I don't think any but perhaps a few of our posters are naive or delusional about whom Obama is, but fears of the opposition and their capabilities are indeed rational and in fact, warranted. I would agree with you that Obama has grown our military over the past four years, but I disagree that he has been unopposed.

And please stop saying my vote for him is a sign of support. Clearly, it is not.


To those in power, it is absolutely a sign of support. It's like wearing an ironic mustache, no one but you has any idea it's supposed to be ironic.

Iamwhomiam wrote:It is a vote of conscience by my choice to limit harm, to minimize unwarranted and untimely deaths and impaired lives. It is a vote against Romney. And it's the only thing I or anyone else can legally do to prevent Romney's election.


I don't agree that an Obama presidency will mean less harm, obviously, I've already said so, but in case I wasn't clear enough, the guy is in bed with the people who harmed, and continue to threaten me. So in terms of my own immediate predicament, whichever of the two become president makes no difference, so please don't ask me or try to shame me into voting for those people. Alright, does that make sense? Even though Mr. Ford and others have argued admirably for my point of view on the election, there is a bit missing, and I don't know how to make my view clearer without risking sharing my personal experience, and I won't take the risk here of being explicit. Suffice it to say, I've unfortunately witnessed how at least some of the presidential sausage is made, and I'm not referring to conventional contexts or manipulations. I wish I could still believe that presidents have the amount of power that some here seem to think they do. It's essentially the same network behind both candidates. If enough of those folks care enough about your environmental regs, you'll lose them, regardless of who is president. If it's Obama, they should be even easier to wipe them away.

Too broad a swath of the public is still caught in a trauma bond with Obama, and doesn't resist his abuses the way they would with an obvious predator like Romney. I'd rather see that trauma bond broken, symbolically, and concretely, at the voting booth. Obama was such a brilliant op, they gave us a savior, and our first black president, and a great bait and switch, and this election is about measuring how long the enchantment endures. It's also about moving the discussion further to the right. When the network needs its extreme right wing re-energized, you'll see a Romney come to power. The more methodical in the network will argue there's too much work yet for the Obama enchantment to accomplish, like this lovely new piece of unconstitutional law in the NDAA that makes it even easier to have people disappeared. The hotheads want their fascist state now, but they risk losing it if they press too hard. I think Obama will continue in his role as the brilliant set-up boy for major abuses yet to come, more than likely, under a Republican president, and by then there really will be no point in voting at all.


Thank you Willow for really stating it all so well. I also believe they want Obama to continue -- he's such a brilliant psy-operator, keeping his base and even many on this board in a trance of denial. I think the article I just posted awhile ago also gets to the heart of the problem and what the solution needs to be. When will people finally say enough is enough? It scares the hell out of me to see so-called progressives and liberals on this board giving in to the extreme criminality now solidly entrenched into our system. Perhaps there really is some sort of hypnotism at work -- the alternative is even scarier.

Matt Stoller wrote:At some point soon, we will face yet another moment where the elites say, “Do what we want or there will be a meltdown.” Do we have enough people on our side willing to collectively say “do what we want or there will be a global meldown”? This election is a good mechanism to train people in the willingness to say that and mean it. That is, the reason to advocate for a third-party candidate is to build the civic muscles willing to say no to the establishment in a crisis moment we all know is coming. Right now, the liberal establishment is teaching its people that letting malevolent political elites do what they want is not only the right path, it is the only path. Anything other than that is dubbed an affront to common decency. Just telling the truth is considered beyond rude.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Elvis » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:37 pm

I feel torn in two, from my head down to my heart.

Both sides are right.

Ballot still on desk. I will vote (Obama or Stein). Irony is neutralized on the one hand, but, those Supreme Court nominees...what's a mother to do? :starz:
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Nordic » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:46 am

The key: Don't be afraid.

If you fear, they win. They want you to fear.

So many people fear Romney. Fuck that. Break away from the fear.

Only when you have nothing to fear will we be able to change anything. People with nothing to fear are downright dangerous.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:03 am

Why I’m Voting Green
Posted on Oct 29, 2012
ImageBy Chris Hedges

Illustration by Mr. Fish

The November election is not a battle between Republicans and Democrats. It is not a battle between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney. It is a battle between the corporate state and us. And if we do not immediately engage in this battle we are finished, as climate scientists have made clear. I will defy corporate power in small and large ways. I will invest my energy now solely in acts of resistance, in civil disobedience and in defiance. Those who rebel are our only hope. And for this reason I will vote next month for Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, although I could as easily vote for Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party. I will step outside the system. Voting for the “lesser evil”—or failing to vote at all—is part of the corporate agenda to crush what is left of our anemic democracy. And those who continue to participate in the vaudeville of a two-party process, who refuse to confront in every way possible the structures of corporate power, assure our mutual destruction.

All the major correctives to American democracy have come through movements and third parties that have operated outside the mainstream. Few achieved formal positions of power. These movements built enough momentum and popular support, always in the face of fierce opposition, to force the power elite to respond to their concerns. Such developments, along with the courage to defy the political charade in the voting booth, offer the only hope of saving us from Wall Street predators, the assault on the ecosystem by the fossil fuel industry, the rise of the security and surveillance state and the dramatic erosion of our civil liberties.

“The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don’t have any,” Alice Walker writes.

It was the Liberty Party that first fought slavery. It was the Prohibition and Socialist parties, along with the Suffragists, that began the fight for the vote for women and made possible the 19th Amendment. It was the Socialist Party, along with radical labor unions, that first battled against child labor and made possible the 40-hour workweek. It was the organizing of the Populist Party that gave us the Immigration Act of 1924 along with a “progressive” tax system. And it was the Socialists who battled for unemployment benefits, leading the way to the Social Security Act of 1935. No one in the ruling elite, including Franklin Roosevelt, would have passed this legislation without pressure from the outside.

“It is the combination of a social movement on the ground with an independent political party that has always made history together, whether during abolition, women’s suffrage or the labor movement,” Stein said when I reached her by phone as she campaigned in Chicago. “We need courage in our politics that matches the courage of the social movements—of Occupy, eviction blockades, Keystone pipeline civil disobedience, student strikes, the Chicago teachers union and more. If public opinion really mattered in this race, we [her presidential ticket] would win. We have majority support in poll after poll on nearly all of the key issues, from downsizing the military budget and bringing the troops home, to taxing the rich, to stopping the Wall Street bailouts, to breaking up the banks, to ending the offshoring of jobs, to supporting workers’ rights, to increasing the minimum wage, to health care as a human right, through Medicare for all. These are the solutions a majority of Americans are clamoring for.”

The corporate state has successfully waged a campaign of fear to disempower voters and citizens. By intimidating voters through a barrage of propaganda with the message that Americans have to vote for the lesser evil and that making a defiant stand for justice and democracy is counterproductive, it cements into place the agenda of corporate domination we seek to thwart. This fear campaign, skillfully disseminated by the $2.5 billion spent on political propaganda, has silenced real political opposition. It has turned those few politicians and leaders who have the courage to resist, such as Stein and Ralph Nader, into pariahs, denied a voice in the debates and the national discourse. Capitulation, silence and fear, however, are not a strategy. They will guarantee everything we seek to avoid.

“The Obama administration has embraced the policies of George W. Bush, and then gone much further,” Stein said. “Wall Street bailouts went ballistic under Obama—$700 billion under Bush, but $4.5 trillion under Obama, plus another $16 trillion in zero-interest loans for Wall Street. Obama continues offshoring our jobs. Bill Clinton brought us NAFTA, which was carried out under George W. Bush. It was vastly expanded under Obama to labor abusers in Colombia, and to Panama and South Korea. The Transpacific Partnership, being negotiated behind closed doors by the Obama White House, is NAFTA on steroids. It continues to send our jobs overseas. It undermines wages at home. It overrides American sovereignty by establishing an international corporate board that can overrule American legislation and regulations that protect workers as well as our air, our water, our climate and our food supply.”

Obama, who has claimed the power of assassinating U.S. citizens without charge or trial, increased the drone war and has vastly expanded the wars in the Middle East. He is waging proxy wars in Yemen, Pakistan and Somalia. His assault on civil liberties—from his use of the Espionage Act to silence whistle-blowers to Section 1021 of the National Defense Authorization Act to the FISA Amendment Act—is worse than Bush’s. His attack on immigrant rights has also outpaced that of Bush. Obama has deported more undocumented workers in four years than his Republican predecessor did in eight years. There is negligible difference between Obama and Romney on the issue of student debt, which has turned a generation of college students into indentured servants. But the most important convergence between the Republicans and the Democrats is their utter failure to address the perilous assault by the fossil fuel industry on the ecosystem. It was Obama who undercut the international climate accord reached last year at Durban, South Africa, saying the world could wait until 2020 for an agreement.

“Obama is promoting oil drilling in the Arctic, where the ice cap has already collapsed to one-quarter of its size from a couple decades ago, and he’s opened up our national parks for drilling,” Stein said. “He has given the green light to fracking. He has permitted the exhaust from shale oil [extraction] to go into the atmosphere. He is building the southern pass of the Keystone pipeline. He brags that he has built more miles of pipeline than any other president.

“There is a protracted drought in 60 percent of the continental U.S.,” Stein said. “There are record forest fires and rising food prices. We have just now seen the 12 hottest months on record. Storms are growing in destructiveness. All this is happening with less than 1-degree Celsius temperature rise. Yet we are now on track for a 6-degree Celsius warming in this century alone. This is not survivable. The most pessimistic science on climate change has underpredicted the rate at which climate change is advancing.”

The flimsy excuses used by liberals and progressives to support Obama, including the argument that we can’t let Romney appoint the next Supreme Court justices, ignore the imperative of building a movement as fast and as radical as possible as a counterweight to corporate power. The Supreme Court, no matter what its composition, will not save us from financial implosion and climate collapse. And Obama, whatever his proclivity on social issues, has provided ample evidence that he will not alter his servitude to the corporate state. For example, he has refused to provide assurance that he will not make cuts in basic social infrastructures. He has proposed raising the eligibility age for Medicare, a move that would leave millions without adequate health care in retirement. He has said he will reduce the cost-of-living adjustment for Social Security, thrusting vast numbers of seniors into poverty. Progressives’ call to vote for independents in “safe” states where it is certain the Democrats will win will do nothing to mitigate fossil fuel’s ravaging of the ecosystem, regulate and prosecute Wall Street or return to us our civil liberties.

“There is no state out there where either Obama or Romney offers a way out of here alive,” Stein said. “It’s up to us to create truly safe states, a safe nation, and a safe planet. Neither Obama nor Romney has a single exit strategy from the deadly crises we face.”
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