The trouble with magic....

[Dreams End]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"The only trouble with magic," said CS Lewis, "is that it doesn't work."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Discuss. <br><br>Personally, I'm more interested in firsthand experiences in this thread. I was looking at a Golden Dawn site and they have, what seems to me, a fantastically complicated system that could keep you busy for years. <br><br>But does it actually DO anything?<br><br>If yes, is all that rigamarole necessary?<br><br>Can it be positive or is it always negative, no matter what the practicioners say? (I was a little bothered that the golden Dawn writers on the site I found said, "Well you should read Crowley too, and some groups combine with Thelema and that's fine...etc.") Is that REALLY okay?<br><br>Or is it "neutral"? Do these "forces" exist the way, say wind or fire exist, able to be "harnessed" in good or evil ways but remain, themselves, neutral?<br><br>Or do we fool ourselves into thinking that we "harness" them? Someone I know said using magic was more like "playing with dough." I asked, "Do you ever get the feeling that the dough is playing with you?"<br><br>Not looking for dogma in this post. All perspectives welcome, but I'm far more interested in experiences...and experiences that speak to the question: does magic work? And for any who've been harmed by practitioners of magic, your stories are imortant, but in this thread, I'm interested in whether there was any harm that seemed to come about in a "magical" way. <br><br>And we on this site are aware of intelligence connections to some of these schools of thought. That's important. It's just not what I'm interested in for THIS thread. <br><br>And we will not, I hope, ask any posters in this thread to "prove" that whatever experiences they had were the result of magic...that's an impossible burden. I'm really looking for subjective experiences here. Let's keep this thread flame war free. <p></p><i></i>

[survivalnyc]

does magic work?<br><br>a better question IMO, is "what isnt magic?"<br><br>we live in a magical world.<br><br>one<br>human? <p></p><i></i>

[ZeroHaven]

Does it work? Of course it does!<br>I do believe several of these have a real scientific reason behind them, but I still call it magic.<br><br>Consider:<br>1. Love potion #9. - good magic<br>I have seen a few variations using candles, pictures, herbs, and so on. Rarely have I seen these spells fail when cast with reasonably good intent. They may not get perfect "deeply madly in love" results but at minimum a date invitation.<br><br>2. The Ouija board. - scary magic<br>8th grade, a girl I had been close with over the summer. Long story short, she missed a large part of the school year due to being scared of all the "creepy evil things" she started seeing. Her mom told me they'd thrown the board out (watched the trash men take the bag!) and later found it in the living room. After burning it during a full moon with lots of white sage and prayer, the girl recovered and lived normally ever after.<br><br>3. Being cursed, and removing it. - bad and good<br>I came to believe I had been cursed after three months of continual "stuff going wrong". It started with small things, like appliances breaking down. It's normal to have a 'bad luck' streak, they pass. Next came mysterious, unidentifiable, health problems. Next the utility companies (all of them) got my files scrambled. There's lots more but, basically it was all little things that compounded so badly I thought I was going crazy. <br>Later through subtle inquiry I discovered someone had in fact made the attempt. Apparently someone thought I was after their boyfriend and had a few friends over for a 'cursing party'. Using my own belief system I tried to clean the air around me... and "just like magic" my washer started working, the gas company found the computer glitch, and so on.<br><br>Is this what you were looking for? <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>I believe the magical realm really is a part of nature. I think a lot of it has to do with the power of the mind, along the lines of psychic and telekinetic powers. Our brains run on electricity, this sets up a magnetic field, fields can affect both the container and the outside world. <p><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ZeroHaven/tinhat.gif"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></p><i></i>

[anonymage]

See the works of Peter Carroll and Phil Hine for a more "grounded" perspective on magic(k). As for my limited experience, sigils appear to work but the other stuff not so much for me. Not a big fan of Crowley or Golden Dawn systems at all since they both seem way to heiarchical and filled with meaningless rituals and unneeded "secrecy" (IE it's not a secret if you secrets are posted on the internet, published by former members, and/or if they are useless bits anyways). My take is to use what aspects work (from the Chaos Magic perspective) and systems full of ancient gods I'm unfamiliar with and could care less about just never appealed to me. Conjuring up modern egregore's like Superman or Batman always struck me as more interesting and more likely to work since I'm more intimate with knowledge of modern pop-culture "gods" than with, say, Thoth. I see magic more along the lines as applied quantum physics at this point... it only appears as magic because science is still playing catch up... my thoughts for what they're worth. <p></p><i></i>

[FourthBase]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>3. Being cursed, and removing it. - bad and good<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Perfect example, the Red Sox.<br>The ALCS was magical.<br>And not in a metaphorical way. <p></p><i></i>

[Col Quisp]

Magic is just as fake as icing, devoured by the young. <p></p><i></i>

[robertdreed]

I like Carlos Castaneda's take on a lot of things related to the metaphysical, the New Age, and the occult. He's a peerless synthesizer- I've found congruencies within his fictional vignettes to everything from Gurdjieff to the Church of the Subgenius. <br><br>I one of his books, Castaneda points out that nothing draws attention like ritual. But it's downside is the obsessions and compulsions that allegiance to ritual forms tends to engender in the ritualizer. Castaneda contends that the ultimate direction of such obsession is morbidity.<br><br>I also like Castaneda's delineation of the phenomenological world into the Known, the Unknown, and the Unknowable. <br><br>Castaneda's main point about that is that for human awarenesses, contact with the Unknown is empowering, while contect with the Unknowable is debilitating. <br><br>"Alien Hyperdimensional intrusion"- that sounds like contact with the Unknowable, to me. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[Dreams End]

But I'm hoping for more stories and experiences. <p></p><i></i>

[sw]

edit

[Dreams End]

I spend a LOT of times these days with my wife's littles...especially one named Whisper, who loves to play and to bite(!).<br><br>When times are scary, Whisper imagines herself surrounded by great, protective tigers. It is a powerful image...and I guess that's magic, too.<br><br>One thing that is rather sad. She used to feel that she could talk to plants and particularly trees. What I mean is, they talked BACK. I'll admit, I found this a little weird, but after her breakdown, she lost this ability and her general sense of "magical" connection to the world and this has been one of the most devastating things for her. <br><br>It's coming back a little. But she really feels adrift these days.<br><br>I'm going to pass your post onto her.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[professorpan]

Okay, here is one.<br><br>I'm a kid, maybe eight or nine years old, and I'm in love with a girl in my class -- her name was Michelle. I know that my school is going to the symphony on a field trip the next day, so I decide to pray the Lord's Prayer over and over in an effort to sit next to her at the symphony. I must have said the prayer a hundred times before deciding I'd done enough.<br><br>The next day the teachers herded us into the symphony hall. They pointed to several of us, at random, and told us where to sit. The teacher pointed at Michelle, and then at me.<br><br>That was my first proof of the power of magic.<br><br>There was a caveat, a "monkey's paw" of sorts, however. The girl who was told to sit next to me, opposite the lovely Michelle, was Sherry. Sherry had a crush on me, but I couldn't stand her. <br><br>That was also a lesson. <br><br>I'm not kidding about it -- that particular experience had a major effect on me, even though I consider it nothing more than a whopper synchronicity.<br><br>I've never practiced any form of magic(k), beyond simple rituals of protection of my own devising. There's no need for silly ritual magic when life itself is so regularly full of free, unstructured magic. <p></p><i></i>

[heyjt]

Well, I don't know if this qualifies for magic, but anybody can experiment with dowsing rods. <br> They can be fancy, but mine are made of heavy wire bent in "L" shapes. You hold them in your hands like pistols and they are very reactive. <br> First you try to locate buried water and electric lines and if you are successful the rods will roll in your hands and cross. Once you have accomplished that, try having a partner hold the rods from about 15 feet away. With respectful and loving intent, try sending energy to the rod-holder, and you will be amazed, the rods will cross.<br> Then, you can have a partner stand and think about projecting energy and as you approach them while holding the rods, they will cross when you reach their "energy field" or aura.<br> I have no idea if this is considered "magic". Are we affecting the person or the rods? Is it a galvanic reaction in the hands? I don't know. Dowsing is unlimited once you get into it.<br> I have also seen high-level martial artists "knock out" people without even touching them.<br> This use of energy can be harmful to both participants if bad intent is used-- the law of Karma.<br> I have also seen a guy move 3 rows of 5 (15) people from about 10 feet behind them in this way.<br> I consider Chinese Daoist methods of energy cultivation--White Magic...<br> <p></p><i></i>

[anotherdrew]

the only real point to golden dawn stuff is to excersie your self in a way to be prepared to achive self powered trancendence upon death (or possibly at will). Talk of "powers" beyond possibly healing I think are just a smoke screen to dazle the rable and keep the inner seperate from the outer. Your observation about the complexity and the years it takes are right on, really to be done seriously it's a life's work and not one to start before 30 or so.<br><br>Anyway, these are mearly my opinions at the moment, IANAT (i am not a thelemite). <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p097.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=anotherdrew>anotherdrew</A> at: 7/29/05 12:45 am<br></i>

[anotherdrew]

oh.. and there are many other paths and self-powered isn't the only way at all either. So it's a choice suitable for those who like the style of it in a way. the real truth ( that is the 'nature of reality and ourselves') is only touchable/comprehensible through metaphore in our normal waking world/life, that's why there are many different metaphores/stories/paths. But now that you've asked the question, the door will be answered and you'll be able to start (or more likely continue) moving up your path. Talking openly about this stuff is somewhat taboo as the 'powers' that run this world don't much care for people handing out maps to the exit. <p></p><i></i>

[Project Willow]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I remember one time a little one told my therapist that he felt magically better when he breathed in the air she exhaled.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>That's beautiful SW.<br> <p>PW</p><i></i>