I'm actually kind of surprised by the amount of hand-wringing over the death of bin Laden on this board.
Does anybody here really think he was a GOOD guy? or that America's "crimes of Empire" lend legitimacy to what happened on 9/11?
Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff
by Jerky » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:02 am
by Jerky » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:04 am
divideandconquer wrote: What's that sci-fi book that deals with this subject? Anyone know?
by MinM » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:08 am
Wednesday, January 23, 2013
Zero Dark Thirty and the Al Qaeda mysteries
...Almost immediately after bin Laden’s death was announced by President Barack Obama, screenwriter Mark Boal and director Kathryn Bigelow announced their intent to make a film about the manhunt and the Seals mission. That July, just two months after the raid, a high-level Pentagon intelligence officer named Mike Vickers told Boal and Bigelow they would allow a Seal involved in the planning of Neptune Spear to provide them information for Boal’s script. According to declassified documents of the meeting, Boal and Bigelow were overjoyed at this opportunity. (Josh Gerstein, Politico, May 23, 2012)
Boal said, “That’s dynamite!” With equal elation, Bigelow chimed in with “That’s incredible.”
Boal was also welcomed at CIA headquarters where he was allowed access to a mock-up of bin Laden’s Abbottabad compound. Boal was even invited to a CIA ceremony honoring the Seals involved. (New York Times, Aug. 6, 2011)
And Boal met with two members of the staff of the National Security Council: Chief of Staff Denis McDonough and Adviser on Counterterrorism John Brennan. But an e-mail from Marie Harf of the CIA revealed that the Agency was trying to keep Boal’s visits to Langley quiet. (Politico, May 23, 2012)
This privileged access to secret information is troubling. As many have noted, it is ironic that Boal should be allowed this access by the same administration that has made a habit of threatening with indictments anyone who divulges national security secrets.
...
To make one apt comparison: Oliver Stone’s JFK was not simply about whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald shot President Kennedy. It posed an array of other questions about the event: Was the Warren Commission really looking for the truth at all? Did the FBI actually investigate the case? Was Jim Garrison’s office wired and infiltrated to prevent him from discovering the real facts about the case? Was President Kennedy killed because he was effecting a withdrawal of American forces from Vietnam?
But Stone didn’t ask for help from Washington in making his movie. And he was interested in a lot more than just if Oswald was guilty. Thus, JFK was a much richer and thought-provoking film than Zero Dark Thirty...
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2013/01/ ... eries.html
"Zero Dark Thirty" - Lame Propaganda
Posted By: Lion [Send E-Mail]
Date: Sunday, 20-Jan-2013 10:09:24
---------------
To get me into a movie theater to view any of the demented garbage coming out of Hollyweird, is harder than pulling teeth.
But curiosity on how the spin was on this one, got the best of me.
What a waste of time.
The film was nothing but an extension of the 'official 911 story' of complete BS.
I almost laughed out loud at the part where the CIA agent and Navy Seals gathered at "Area 51" to view a special night attack helicopter 'that doesn't exist' - which they used to pull off their dirty deeds...
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/fo ... ead=266994
Hollywood’s Waterboard: Review of the CIA’s “Zero Dark Thirty”
...There is no good reason, and certainly no hard evidence in the public domain, to believe that among those killed was Osama Bin Laden. By refusing to release any evidence, but giving tremendous assistance to a Hollywood film depicting them in a very sympathetic light, the CIA and DOD have got away with murder, and even managed to get huge numbers of people to praise them for murder.
Indeed, the most poignant moment in the whole film, complete with emotive swelling music and softly edited slow-mo is when the SEALs have to blow up the downed stealth helicopter. It is as though amongst all the murder and torture and traumatising of children and adults alike the loss of a helicopter is the greatest tragedy...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/hollywoods ... ty/5319028
@GregMitch: @ggreenwald Bigelow in extended version of Colbert interview deflects, defends, cracks joke about getting spun by CIA. http://bit.ly/10s9ilT
https://twitter.com/GregMitch/status/294069708074926080
by NeonLX » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:18 am
by justdrew » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:37 pm
Jerky wrote:divideandconquer wrote: What's that sci-fi book that deals with this subject? Anyone know?
Do you mean Ender's Game?
by 8bitagent » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:24 am
Jerky wrote:I'm actually kind of surprised by the amount of hand-wringing over the death of bin Laden on this board.
Does anybody here really think he was a GOOD guy? or that America's "crimes of Empire" lend legitimacy to what happened on 9/11?
by 8bitagent » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:25 am
by Nordic » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:41 am
Jerky wrote:I'm actually kind of surprised by the amount of hand-wringing over the death of bin Laden on this board.
Does anybody here really think he was a GOOD guy? or that America's "crimes of Empire" lend legitimacy to what happened on 9/11?
by Nordic » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:51 am
8bitagent wrote:Jerky wrote:I'm actually kind of surprised by the amount of hand-wringing over the death of bin Laden on this board.
Does anybody here really think he was a GOOD guy? or that America's "crimes of Empire" lend legitimacy to what happened on 9/11?
I think bin Laden was a good guy in *some* aspects in Khartoum Sudan, where he worked hard to modernize the roads and city. And by some, I mean it's like
a priest who does a lot of good deeds, but then is abusing kids behind the scenes.
But yeah, I've no doubt in my mind bin Laden attached his blessing to horrible deeds and hob nobbed with criminals.
Dar es Salaam/Nairobi twin embassy bombings...there's still Africans blind and all fucked up from that attack which he was so proud about.
Here's the point though, and something I went about ad nauseum on forums and facebook when it happened: Everyone celebrated bin Laden's death like the freaking Ewok
celebration at the end of Return of the Jedi. But I had to point out, was it worth ten years of the mass slaughter and injury of hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims and the deaths
and injuries of thousands of US soldiers? As I said back then, woo hoo we got Osama bin Emmanuel Goldstein. too bad it took the wholesale genocide of Iraq, and endless bombings
of Afghans, Pakistanis, Yemenis, oh and a lot of torture to get there. In a way I symbolically spit in the face of everyone cheering that "momentous" occasion
when Obama dun got Osama, and I stand by that sentiment today. That plus the scripting is so obvious. The (true) PTB must be laughing their robes off
by 8bitagent » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:51 am
Nordic wrote:8bitagent wrote:Jerky wrote:I'm actually kind of surprised by the amount of hand-wringing over the death of bin Laden on this board.
Does anybody here really think he was a GOOD guy? or that America's "crimes of Empire" lend legitimacy to what happened on 9/11?
I think bin Laden was a good guy in *some* aspects in Khartoum Sudan, where he worked hard to modernize the roads and city. And by some, I mean it's like
a priest who does a lot of good deeds, but then is abusing kids behind the scenes.
But yeah, I've no doubt in my mind bin Laden attached his blessing to horrible deeds and hob nobbed with criminals.
Dar es Salaam/Nairobi twin embassy bombings...there's still Africans blind and all fucked up from that attack which he was so proud about.
Here's the point though, and something I went about ad nauseum on forums and facebook when it happened: Everyone celebrated bin Laden's death like the freaking Ewok
celebration at the end of Return of the Jedi. But I had to point out, was it worth ten years of the mass slaughter and injury of hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims and the deaths
and injuries of thousands of US soldiers? As I said back then, woo hoo we got Osama bin Emmanuel Goldstein. too bad it took the wholesale genocide of Iraq, and endless bombings
of Afghans, Pakistanis, Yemenis, oh and a lot of torture to get there. In a way I symbolically spit in the face of everyone cheering that "momentous" occasion
when Obama dun got Osama, and I stand by that sentiment today. That plus the scripting is so obvious. The (true) PTB must be laughing their robes off
Dude, why would you even for two seconds believe the completely unproven fairy tale that whatever happened in abbatobad that night was a raid that killed obl?
Eyewitnesses on the ground say such a story doesn't even begin to match what they saw go down that night, don't forget that the CIA had a little setup filled with agents right next door for the longest time, that a government thst displayed the corpses of the sons of saddam on the street like it was 1890's Deadwood, and who staged the "Spider hole" bullshit capture of Saddam and who then made sure we all saw Saddam hung from a rope till dead, and who made sure we all saw Quaddafi get sodomized by a knife SOMEHOW decided that they wouldn't show the world the body of the Greatest Enemy of the World since Adolf Hitler? And hid his body beneath the sea before anyone else could see it? And somehow kept the body from view of EVERY SINGLE ONE of the sailors on that ship, and who are unable to show us one single snippet of video from the raid itself even though all those mysterious Seal Team dudes were wired with cameras?
And why the hell would you buy into Jerkoff's insipid strawman and even give this twat the time of day?
Why would anyone who reads this board and who seems to be as well informed as you suddenly verr off into Propaganda World, where the fictional events depicted in ZD30 exist?
You know better than that.
by justdrew » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:56 am
by thatsmystory » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:06 am
While heading into a building for an interview, Barker and his CIA companions "were mowed down" by Kidman's guards.
"Suddenly, all these heavy guys ... are like, 'Get out of the way!' And they started pushing them, pushing them, forcing them through this narrow opening. It's Nicole Kidman, you know," Barker said, laughing.
"So clearly, we're here talking about taking out bin Laden, and the CIA, it does not matter compared to Nicole Kidman. I get it."
Former CIA analyst Bakos joked:"Now I know where we stand in the totem pole.
"'Thank you for your service, but get out of the way, because Nicole Kidman's gotta come through'."
Kidman's security 'mow down' CIA at Sundance
by 8bitagent » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:31 am
thatsmystory wrote:To me the more interesting story concerns the real CIA agents who are now making the rounds for Manhunt: The Search for Bin Laden. By all means Google Sundance, CIA, Nicole Kidman for a hilarious anecdote. It's just so damn funny!
Ok I get it. Nobody wants to Google it. Here you go:While heading into a building for an interview, Barker and his CIA companions "were mowed down" by Kidman's guards.
"Suddenly, all these heavy guys ... are like, 'Get out of the way!' And they started pushing them, pushing them, forcing them through this narrow opening. It's Nicole Kidman, you know," Barker said, laughing.
"So clearly, we're here talking about taking out bin Laden, and the CIA, it does not matter compared to Nicole Kidman. I get it."
Former CIA analyst Bakos joked:"Now I know where we stand in the totem pole.
"'Thank you for your service, but get out of the way, because Nicole Kidman's gotta come through'."
Kidman's security 'mow down' CIA at Sundance
8Bit? What do you think?
by JackRiddler » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:41 pm
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/28/ ... irty/print
January 28, 2013
Wishful Thinking About Gorgeous, Murdering CIA Thugs
Michael Moore’s Repellent Defense of “Zero Dark Thirty”
by DAVE CLENNON
Wow!
Michael Moore sure can make up a lot of dialogue for scenes he thinks happened off screen, in “Zero Dark Thirty.”
He freely invents quotes for President Obama, writing words no one else has ever quoted Obama as saying. Here’s Moore’s Obama, scolding the CIA:
“Go find bin Laden – and don’t use torture. Torture is morally wrong. Torture is the coward’s way. C’mon – we’re smart, we’re the USA … Use your brains (like I do) and, goddammit, get to work!”
Were you writing fiction, Mike, or were you basing your script “on first hand accounts of actual events.” (The claim of Bigelow and Mark Boal in “Zero.”) In any case, your made-up dialogue belongs on Saturday Night Live, not in a serious defense of Bigelow and Boal.
Actually, I’d like to believe a scene like the one you wrote did take place, Mike, but it’s more like wishful thinking on your part. After all, what exactly has Obama done to bring these torturing incompetents to justice?
Torture abolitionists aren’t arguing whether or not “Zero Dark Thirty” portrays torture as “effective” (it does, though Bigelow and Boal consistently fudge the point). We know it’s morally wrong and a crime. BUT, like it or not, Mike, there are many Americans who are morally uncomfortable with torture, but they accept it as a necessary, “effective,” tool in the “War on Terror.” If those people learn that torture doesn’t work, they might, eventually, come to condemn it.
Torture abolitionists don’t need you to tell them that arguments about the “effectiveness” of torture can be a trap. Yes, such arguments can distract us from the real point — Torture is a moral abomination AND a crime. Torture abolitionists have been making that point for a long time, since way before Fox’s “24″ went on the air (2001), and made Kiefer Sutherland America’s poster boy for torture.
What are the real reasons torture abolitionists are criticizing “Zero Dark Thirty”?
Because the heroine of the film (Jessica Chastain as Maya) and Maya’s mentor Dan, commit a grievous crime — torture — and they are never, ever, condemned for their crimes, and they are never brought to justice. (Please, Michael, don’t say they’re innocent because Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales and Woo defined many forms of torture as, well, NOT torture.)
Instead of being indicted, these torturers are presented as heroes, as brave and dedicated “detectives.” No one gives Maya or Dan the kind of scolding, which you envision Obama giving, off-screen. Chastain’s Maya, is presented as especially admirable, a feminist action hero. She not only gets her man; she also muscles CIA male chauvinists out of the way, as she pushes ahead on “The Greatest Manhunt in History.” And we’re supposed to empathize and cheer her on.
But along the way on her quest, she learns the fine art of torture, from Dan. And she learns fast. When she’s left alone with their first victim, Ammar, he begs her for help. Having learned to stop flinching at Dan’s cruelty, she coldly replies, “You can help yourself by being truthful.”
Later, Chastain gets to supervise the torture of her own detainee, Faraj. She has him punched out, as she shouts, “You’re not being fulsome in your replies!” Then she has Faraj waterboarded.
We’ve already seen these “enhanced techniques” used on Ammar. But Chastain’s Maya employs a new one:
She orders a liquid — a thick, brown liquid — to be poured into a funnel which has been forced into Faraj’s mouth and rammed partway down his throat. Some of this brown liquid will spill from the sides of Faraj’s mouth; some will go into his lungs, the rest, into his stomach.
Sadly, for Maya, Faraj refuses to give up any critical information. She complains to her mentor about Faraj’s resistance, adding, “And that’s using every measure we have.” Dan replies, “Either he’s gonna keep withholding, or he’s gonna die from the pressure you’re putting on him.” Maya then looks hopefully at Dan and says, “Hey, you wanna take a run at him?” Dan declines, so Chastain has to resume putting “pressure” on Faraj by herself.
We don’t see Chastain torturing Faraj on-screen any more, but, in later dialogue, we learn that her “pressure” has finally killed him. Her station colleague, Jessica, sees that Maya is frustrated in her quest. Jessica tries to snap her out of it: ”So Faraj went south on you. It happens.” With that comment, we learn that Chastain/Maya’s frustration isn’t about Faraj STILL withholding (How many more times did she pour that thick brown liquid down his throat?). She’s upset because her detainee, still withholding, “went south” on her. Do you get it, Michael? Your heroine murdered another human being, in the course of torturing him. And she is never called to account.
Torture is not a feminist act, and it’s way out of line to imply that Chastain — this gorgeous, murdering CIA thug — is a feminist hero.
Out of line and disappointing. In “Capitalism, a Love Story,” you interviewed a priest who was based in your home town of Flint. Memorable scene. I’d like to know how he would interpret this film’s moral stance on torture.
Because, Mike, torture isn’t a Left-Right thing. It’s a Good-Evil thing.
Dave Clennon is a long-time actor and political agitator, probably best known for portraying the advertising mogul Miles Drentell on ABC’s thirtysomething. His performance as Miles earned him an Emmy nomination. His more recent projects include Syriana, Grey’s Anatomy and Weeds. He won an Emmy for his performance in an episode of HBO’s Dream On. Long-time fans of John Carpenter’s classic The Thing treasure his delivery of the line — after seeing a mind-blowing human-to-monster transformation — “You gotta be fuckin’ kidding.”
http://www.deadline.com/2013/01/micheal ... ntroversy/
SNIP
In Defense of Zero Dark Thirty
There comes a point about two-thirds of the way through ‘Zero Dark Thirty’ where it is clear something, or someone, on high has changed. The mood at the CIA has shifted, become subdued. It appears that the torture-approving guy who’s been president for the past eight years seems to be, well, gone. And, just as a fish rots from the head down, the stench also seems to be gone. Word then comes down that – get this! – we can’t torture any more! The CIA agents seem a bit disgruntled and dumbfounded. I mean, torture has worked soooo well these past eight years! Why can’t we torture any more???
The answer is provided on a TV screen in the background where you see a black man (who apparently is the new president) and he’s saying, in plain English, that America’s torturing days are over, done, finished. There’s an “aw, shit” look on their faces and then some new boss comes into the meeting room, slams his fist on the table and says, essentially, you’ve had eight years to find bin Laden – and all you’ve got to show for it are a bunch of photos of naked Arab men peeing on themselves and wearing dog collars and black hoods. Well, he shouts, those days are over! There’s no secret group up on the top floor looking for bin Laden, you’re it, and goddammit do your job and find him.
He is there to put the fear of God in them, probably because his boss, the new President, has (as we can presume) on his first day in office, ordered that bin Laden be found and killed. Unlike his frat boy predecessor who had little interest in finding bin Laden (even to the point of joking that “I really just don’t spend that much time on him”), this new president was not an imbecile and all about business. Go find bin Laden – and don’t use torture. Torture is morally wrong. Torture is the coward’s way. C’mon – we’re smart, we’re the USA, and you’re telling me we can’t find a six-and-a-half-foot tall Saudi who’s got a $25 million bounty on his head? Use your brains (like I do) and, goddammit, get to work!
And then, as the movie shows, the CIA abruptly shifts from torture porn to – are you sitting down? – *detective work.* Like cops do to find killers. Bin Laden was a killer – a mass killer – not a general of an army of soldiers, or the head of a country call Terrorstan. He was a crazed religious fanatic, a multi-millionaire, and a punk who was part of the anti-Soviet mujahideen whom we trained, armed and funded in Afghanistan back in the ’80s. But he was a godsend and a very useful tool to the Dick Cheneys and Don Rumsfields of the world. They could hold him up to a frightened American public and scare the bejesus out of everyone – and everyone (well, most everyone) would then get behind the effort to declare war on, um … well … Who exactly do we declare war against? Oh, right – Terrorism!
· The War on Terrorism! So skilled were the men from Halliburton, et al. that they convinced the Congress and the public to go to war against a noun. Terrorism. People fell for it, and these rich men and their friends made billions of dollars from “contracting” and armaments and a Burger King on every Iraqi base. Billions more were made creating a massive internal spying apparatus called “Homeland Security.” Business was very, very good, and as long as the boogieman (Osama) was alive, the citizenry would not complain one bit.
I think you know what happens next. In the final third of ‘Zero Dark Thirty,’ the agents switch from torture to detective work – and guess what happens? We find bin Laden! Eight years of torture – no bin Laden. Two years of detective work – boom! Bin Laden!
And that really should be the main takeaway from ‘Zero Dark Thirty’: That good detective work can bring fruitful results – and that torture is wrong.
Much of the discussion and controversy around the film has centered on the belief that the movie shows, or is trying to say, that torture works. They torture a guy for years and finally, while having a friendly lunch with him one day, they ask him if he would tell them the name of bin Laden’s courier. Either that, or go back and be tortured some more. He says he doesn’t know the guy but he knows his fake name and he gives them that name. The name turns out to be correct. Torture works!
But then we learn a piece of news: The CIA has had the name of this guy all along! For ten years! And how did they get this name ten years ago? From “a tip.” A random tip! No torture involved. But, as was the rule during those years of incompetency and no desire to find bin Laden, the tip was filed away somewhere in some room – and not discovered until 2010. So, instead of torturing hundreds for eight years to find this important morsel of intelligence, they could have found it in their own CIA file cabinet in about eight minutes. Yeah, torture works.
In the movie, after they have the name of the courier, they then believe if they find him, they find bin Laden. So how do they find him? They bribe a Kuwaiti informant with a new car. That’s right, they find the number of the courier’s family by giving the guy a Lamborghini. And what do they do when they find the courier’s mother? Do they kidnap and torture her to find out where her son is? Nope, they just listen in on his weekly call home to Mom, and through that, they trace him to Pakistan and then hire a bunch of undercover Pakistani Joe Fridays to follow this guy’s every move – which, then, leads them to the infamous compound in Abbottabad where the Saudi punk has holed up.
Nice police work, boys!
Oh – and girl. ‘Zero Dark Thirty’ – a movie made by a woman (Kathryn Bigelow), produced by a woman (Megan Ellison), distributed by a woman (Amy Pascal, the co-chairman of Sony Pictures), and starring a woman (Jessica Chastain) is really about how an agency of mostly men are dismissive of a woman who is on the right path to finding bin Laden. Yes, guys, this is a movie about how we don’t listen to women, how hard it is for them to have their voice heard even in these enlightened times. You could say this is a 21st century chick flick – and it would do you well to see it.
But back to the controversy and the torture. I guess where I part with most of my friends who are upset at this film is that they are allowing the wrong debate to take place. You should NEVER engage in a debate where the other side defines the terms of the debate – namely, in this case, to debate “whether torture works.” You should refuse to participate in that discussion because the real question should be, simply, “is torture wrong?” And, after watching the brutal behavior of CIA agents for the first 45 minutes of the film, I can’t believe anyone of conscience would conclude anything other than that this is morally NOT right. You will be repulsed by these torture scenes because, make no mistake about it, this has been done in your name and mine and with our tax dollars. We funded this.
If you allow the question to be “did torture work?” then you’ll lose because yes, if you torture someone who actually has the information, they will eventually give it to you. The problem is, the other 99 who don’t know anything will also tell you anything to get you to stop torturing – but their information is wrong. How do you know which one of the 100 is the man with the goods? You don’t.
But let’s grant the other side that maybe, occasionally, torture “works”. Here’s what else will work: castrating pedophiles. Why don’t we do that? Probably because we think it’s morally wrong. The death penalty sure works. Put a murderer in a gas chamber and I can guarantee you he’ll never murder again. But is it right? Do we accomplish the ends we seek by becoming the murderers ourselves? That should be our only question.
After I saw ‘Zero Dark Thirty,’ a friend asked me, “During the torture scenes, who did you feel empathy for the most – the American torturer or the Arab suspect?” That was easy to answer. “Oh, God, the poor guy being waterboarded. The torturer was a sadist.”
“Yes, that’s the answer everyone gives me afterward. The movie actually makes you care for the tortured guys who may have, in fact, been part of 9/11. Like rooting for the Germans on the submarine to make it back to port in ‘Das Boot,’ that’s the sign of some great filmmaking when the writer and director are able to get you to empathize with the person you’ve been told everywhere else to hate.”
‘Zero Dark Thirty’ is a disturbing, fantastically-made movie. It will make you hate torture. And it will make you happy you voted for a man who stopped all that barbarity – and who asked that the people over at Langley, like him, use their brains.
And that’s what worked.
P.S. One final thought. I’ve heard fellow lefties say that even if the filmmakers didn’t intend to endorse torture (Bigelow called torture “reprehensible” on Colbert the other night), the average person watching the movie is going to take it the wrong way. I believe it is the responsibility of the filmmaker attempting to communicate something that they do so clearly and skillfully (and you can decide for yourself if Bigelow and Boal did so. For me, they did.). But I never blame the artist for failing to dumb down their work so that the lesser minds among us “get it.” Should Springsteen not have named his album ‘Born in the USA’ because some took it to be as a salute to patriotism (Reagan wanted to use it in his 1984 reelection campaign but Bruce said no)?
(An edited version of this appeared on Time.com this week.)
by 8bitagent » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:13 pm
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