Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:12 pm

I was told he was living in Viet Nam. I have no idea if that was true or false, but it came from a city official.

The Fox panel study is a fraud. Yes, it took place, but Fox lied about meeting or talking to the parents.

Assisted by a panel of three people, he has been lucky that family members of the victims, as well as Mr. Huff's mother and twin brother, Kane, who were unavailable for interviews for this article, have spoken to him, Dr. Fox said.


I was the only parent Fox contacted and that took place via telephone after the Panel report was completed and this NY Times article was published. Imagine my astonishment, if you will, that while I awaited for the article "After 7 Deaths, Digging for an Explanation" load on my 26.4kb dial-up connection, which I had no idea was related to the Seattle murders, my phone rang and I left the room to get my phone and as I answered it while returning to the still loading page, I read "James Alan Fox" at the same moment he uttered those very words, telling me whom was calling.

Pretty freaky! and oh, so suspicious.

I still have no idea if it was Kyle or Kane who committed the murders, though we've accepted that it was Kyle. Very odd that Kane was not held as a material witness, considering all the contraband the police confiscated, including a live grenade and a pound of weed. Somehow the grenade never appeared on the inventory of confiscated property. The SWAT team reported finding it.

Drew, with all due respect, there is much projection by the author and some factually incorrect information too.

"More weapons were in the truck, including a base-ball bat and machete." And an AR-15 with 3-30 round clips taped together.

"...and shot two partygoers on the porch." He shot 4 people on the porch.[/i]

The entire event transpired in 3 minutes. The responding officer actually heard the first shots and was there before being dispatched. Huff left when he was finished killing. Officer confronted Huff upon his exiting, commanding him to drop his weapon. Huff ate his shotgun before the officer finished uttering his command.

Speaking of these murders as being a "...local record, at least for a single shooter..." is irresponsible at best. At worst it is a challenge to the next wannabe famous mass murderer suicide to commit even greater carnage. And the writer assumes prejudicially without evidence that this killer was "unhinged." (I do recognize that most would assume one who kills is quite mad, but we know that one who kills does not need to be crazy.) There is no evidence that Kyle Huff suffered at any time from any mental illness.

"...the massacre did not happen at the rave itself. Nor could it have, given the security arrangements, which included a ban on alcohol, drugs and firearms, a search at the door, and seventeen uniformed police." Seventeen armed policemen and women with the precinct just across the street.

Again, Drew, meaning no disrespect, but this, "As for the devastated ravers, they could at least take comfort from the fact that the killer was not one of "us." That this was officially recognized also mitigated the stigma. After the rituals of mourning (including a vigil, a church memorial, and a dj evening to raise money for the families), the wound could be allowed to heal, and normal operations at the Capitol Hill Arts Centre could resume."


"Comfort"? Seriously? Healing? it is more than plainly obvious to me that the writer has never lost a loved one so suddenly and violently. The murderous event crushed this excellent community center, and it closed within two years of the shootings. That is a great loss to the entire community.

A "happy choice" is just a fucked-up thing to say, "We cannot know the impulse that led Kyle to select, from the arsenal at his disposal, the guns he used. The Winchester and Ruger came with him to Seattle. Perhaps they were his favourites. Be that as it may, as a signalling device, drawing attention to the continuity between one scene and another, it was a happy choice."

And he and his brother had more than a dozen other firearms and long guns with them in Seattle. For a writer to use the word "happy' in any story about a mass murder is grossly irresponsible, imho.

"What fuelled the fury in Kyle's attack on art and on being an artist (let us surmise) was a repudiation of identification with his mother as a position which might open him to the homoerotic desire that had to be repressed for the sake of being, and passing as, a man in a homophobic, hunting country, small town high school."

More biased and unwarranted projections by the author. Probably says more about the writer than it does about Huff's state of mind. He was 22 and drunk and he had access to weapons. A foolish act, for sure, but to psychoanalyze his state of mind after the fact and to come to some rather profound finding is even more foolish. From my viewpoint one would first think if Huff harbored aggression towards a parent, it would be towards the father whom abandoned him, rather than towards his mother who cared for him. There is no evidence Kyle expressed any homosexual tendencies.

That's enough. The rest seems to be the author trying his convoluted best to justify his own imaginings.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:27 pm

Seventeen armed policemen and women with the precinct just across the street.


Wow. Right across the street from the rave...and that was where the raves always/often happened?

A pound of weed? A pound? :shock:

Would it be odd for an emotionally-scarred Vietnam vet to return to live in Vietnam?

Still trying to wrap my head around that phone coincidence. Whew.
Could one possibility be that (early in?) the day of publication, Fox rushed to call a parent?
The odds of you downloading and him calling simultaneously wouldn't be...too astronomical?
What's shocking, of course, is that he only bothered to call any parent, only then.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:52 pm

There were detectives here who said, 'Hey, Chief, it's over — let's move on,' " said R. Gil Kerlikowske, the Seattle police chief.


Great detectives. Not.

But instead of closing the book, Chief Kerlikowske took the rare step days after the killings of hiring James Alan Fox, the Lipman Family professor of criminal justice at Northeastern University in Boston. Dr. Fox, 54, is among the nation's best-known criminologists, sometimes called the dean of death. The author of 16 books, he was an adviser to former President Bill Clinton and has been a frequent couch mate to Oprah Winfrey.


Iamwhomiam, if you want, whenever Fox holds forth in town for a public lecture or book signing, I can ask a question, if there's anything you'd want someone to ask him in person, in public. Oh, and it's nice how he's so chummy with both the president and the queen of America.

Usually, Dr. Fox is called on to make sense out of the soup of crime statistics. Never before had the authorities asked him to explain why someone had gone on a murderous rampage, he said. In a change of roles, Dr. Fox, an intense, bespectacled man who speaks in a low, conspiratorial voice, has been acting as a detective of sorts.


"Acting", right. Relishing the role, too, by the looks of that photo. He's missing the fedora and/or pipe.

Assisted by a panel of three people, he has been lucky that family members of the victims, as well as Mr. Huff's mother and twin brother, Kane, who were unavailable for interviews for this article, have spoken to him, Dr. Fox said. Chief Kerlikowske said he had hired Dr. Fox largely because he thought people who would not talk to the police would open up to a professor.


And, his audition? He failed it, clearly.

"In this case, the people who were killed didn't know Kyle Huff,"


But, considering Huff's Seattle rave DJ friend: Did Huff know them?

Not long after Dr. Fox was hired by private contract, a crumpled, single-page note was found in a trash bin near the apartment in which Mr. Huff and his brother had lived. Crime lab officials have concluded that it is "highly probable" that Mr. Huff wrote the note, which was handwritten and addressed to his brother.


Ah, that timing is interesting. Did, uh, Kane know Fox was hired to investigate, and when?
And again, do identical twins have similar handwriting? Identical, even?

"I can't let them get away with what they're doing," he wrote. "I hate this world of sex they are striving to make."


This is probably unfair, but: I wonder how many, if any, cops in that precinct thought/felt the same?

Dr. Fox said, "Obviously you don't want to blame the victims, but he was clearly upset at the ravers."


I remember that, from high school English AP, that trick: Paralipsis.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:06 pm

Yes, the precinct office was on the corner and directly across the street is their parking lot where police vehicles refuel. CHAC, the Capitol Hill Arts Center was a class act, with a themed dance each weekend. The weekend before was a toga rave. Wear a toga and get 5$ off admission.

Yes, a pound of weed. and lots of guns and a LIVE HAND GRENADE.

I tend to believe that it would be a bit unusual for someone suffering from ptsd to confront their triggers alone and far from home. I do know of several vets who have returned seeking and being granted forgiveness, but know of none who moved there. Perhaps he still works for the company? That would make his move make sense. Perhaps he offered his twins to further the cause of his country? Grounds for divorce? Who knows?

"Could one possibility be that (early in?) the day of publication, Fox rushed to call a parent?
The odds of you downloading and him calling simultaneously wouldn't be...too astronomical?"


Writers are generally told when an article written about them will be published, so Fox most likely knew when it would appear. Fox had nearly 3 months to talk with us, but he chose not to. It was a Sunday edition.

The coincidence truly made me feel like I was being monitored. Which might be true.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:26 pm

FourthBase, most of my records are locked in an old dead pc. I don't know of any Seattle rave DJ who knew him. He had been shopping around looking for the right rave to fully unleash his firepower since January. It is most unlikely his twin brother knew nothing of his motives. In fact, it is unbelievable.

The note, found in a dumpster was not at all close to where they lived, IIRC, and it was found 3 to 5 weeks after the event. Kane Huff denied placing it in the dumpster. So who did? Only adds to the mystery.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:28 pm

It should be noted that the security at CHAC was private, not SPD.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:39 pm

Iamwhomiam wrote:FourthBase, most of my records are locked in an old dead pc. I don't know of any Seattle rave DJ who knew him. He had been shopping around looking for the right rave to fully unleash his firepower since January. It is most unlikely his twin brother knew nothing of his motives. In fact, it is unbelievable.

The note, found in a dumpster was not at all close to where they lived, IIRC, and it was found 3 to 5 weeks after the event. Kane Huff denied placing it in the dumpster. So who did? Only adds to the mystery.


Iamwhomiam:

Huff was "quick to anger," said James Winn, a 20-year-old rave promoter in Seattle, who used to hang out with Huff and his brother near their Montana home, and also knew some of the victims.


Sorry, I said DJ, my mistake. It was a promoter.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:49 pm

Yes, a pound of weed. and lots of guns and a LIVE HAND GRENADE.


Jesus. A pound.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
Weed wasn't legal at the time in Montana, right?

A pound.

The guns, given the region, even the grenade, don't raise flags for me. Maybe they should?
There are, though, quite a few militia/supremacist types in Montana, right?
Was dear old dad friends with any? Were the Huff boys? Skinheads?

Did the brothers rebel from mom's artsy scene, into the arms of polar-opposite rigjt-wingers?
Was shooting the moose something that caught the admiring eye of right-wingers? Nazis?

What is that band like, the one the Huffs and skinheads heard that night?
"Butcher"? Sounds like a powerpop duo. Not, lol.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:02 am

FourthBase wrote:
Iamwhomiam wrote:FourthBase, most of my records are locked in an old dead pc. I don't know of any Seattle rave DJ who knew him. He had been shopping around looking for the right rave to fully unleash his firepower since January. It is most unlikely his twin brother knew nothing of his motives. In fact, it is unbelievable.

The note, found in a dumpster was not at all close to where they lived, IIRC, and it was found 3 to 5 weeks after the event. Kane Huff denied placing it in the dumpster. So who did? Only adds to the mystery.


Iamwhomiam:

Huff was "quick to anger," said James Winn, a 20-year-old rave promoter in Seattle, who used to hang out with Huff and his brother near their Montana home, and also knew some of the victims.


Sorry, I said DJ, my mistake. It was a promoter.


Iamwhomiam, is this something you did not know? Had forgotten?

But James Winn, 20, of Seattle, said Huff was "quick to anger."
"Someone would say one thing and he'd snap and walk away," Winn said at the makeshift memorial at the crime scene, recalling when he spent time with Huff and his brother near the boys' family home in Whitefish, Mont.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189 ... z2OnoVbgVy


Seattle rave promoter James Winn was also at the house because he knew each of the victims, he said, and wanted to pay his respects. He said he had met Melissa at two previous raves.
"She was usually quiet, but when she was having fun, she was loud," said Winn. "You could hear her across the room."


Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... z2OnpF6NHb


So, correct me if I'm wrong, but, this points to an utter failure of journalists and detectives to connect three simple dots with two simple lines, right? Given how canonized the assertion is that nobody on the scene knew Huff, the implication that Huff knew nothing of the victims? It may still be true, all of that. But you have this Winn dude who:

1. Hung out with the Huffs in Montana, enough to be able to characterize Huff's "quick to anger" personality, his time spent with Huff worded in the progressive past tense "used to hang out" as opposed to "hung out once" which would alone be noteworthy.

2. Was a rave promoter in Seattle who "knew each of the victims" and who visited the crime scene to pay his respects, and he had met Melissa Moore twice, and again, knew her well enough to characterize her.

Note that the PI article makes zero mention that Winn was a Montana buddy of Huff's.
And the Fox/AP story makes zero mention of him being rave promoter who knew each of the victims.

Is this as WTF-errific as it seems?
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby justdrew » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:38 am

someone should talk to their parents about how and when the killer developed his psychopathology regarding sex

possibly the brothers were having sex with each other or there was a some outside abuser at some point in his life?
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:08 am

justdrew wrote:someone should talk to their parents about how and when the killer developed his psychopathology regarding sex

possibly the brothers were having sex with each other or there was a some outside abuser at some point in his life?


http://www.murderpedia.org/male.H/image ... tter-2.jpg

I'll put this sentence in a spoiler, in case it's too disturbing:

Spoiler:"The basic gist of it is that they're fucking next to us when we're really high to make us freak out."

Now, to Professor Sherlock Fox, that may seem like rambling dissociated nonsense, but what if it is rambling dissociated nonsense with a real referent, i.e., was Huff (Kyle or Kane or both) ever at a party with ravers, maybe with Winn, maybe with some of victims, where he got high (on what, again) and some ravers harmlessly got busy next to him?

Just rediscovered that it's possible to read cached pages, bear with me. I'm going to read a bunch of the Weekly articles now, maybe some Stranger articles too if they're still viable online, and I have to admit that I did not read any of those pdf's yet, only noted their existence. Will read them now, though. I intend to read everything about everything re: this event. I didn't realize at first how incompetent some of the professionals in charge may have been, how much they might have failed the victims' families.

That'll have to wait 'til tomorrow, actually, because it's 3am and I have to sleep (aka visit DMT-land, a nightly trip none of us has a choice in), but until then, here's Fox saying something no other story I've read so far corroborates:

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=%22kyl ... DwsESG7C_3

He was also a fan of music and part of the rave scene.


Really? The rave scene where bands named "Butcher" play for brawling skinheads?

Lastly: James Winn! What's his deal?

Good night. See you tomorrow, thread.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:44 am

Waaaaaaait a minute...

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archiv ... huff-movie

It may surprise you, but I knew one of the victims, Jeremy Martin, for about ten years before he was murdered by Kyle Huff. We were definitely not super close, but after growing up in Mount Vernon we reconnected in Seattle and he had called me several times — the last time I spoke to him I was in Barnes & Noble at University Village when he called to invite me to the event in question at CHAC, because he was thinking about getting a group of people together, doing E, dressing like clowns and "harassing the rave kids". I turned him down. I was however at the event two weeks prior to the night of the shooting — held at a warehouse that got raided by the cops for selling alcohol without a license. Kyle Huff was also at that warehouse party, because I saw him there myself. I was informed that the afterparty held the night of the shooting was asking for donations at the door to compensate for that previous event's bust.


First, "definitely not super close" = did not really know, i.e., bullshit

Second, what the fuck. From all the mainstream stories, it seemed like Huff's first rave was the night he killed. Now he was also at a rave two weeks earlier? Or is "warehouse party" not necessarily a rave? And this Martin dude remembers him. Yes, Huff was 6'5", so, hard to miss. On the other hand, gee, you sure it wasn't, you know, his identical twin brother? How could this docu-douche know? This was also around the time someone reported Huff being incapacitated-high on some drug, right? So, this whole media narrative about Huff not previously being on the scene, part of the scene. Maybe not so much part of it, but definitely on it. Probably thanks to his Montana buddy rave promoter? Did his buddy promote "Better Off Undead?" What does a "rave promoter" do, generally? Is that sometimes a euphemism for drug dealer like "import/exporter" for a mafioso? If so, which drugs? And was Huff taking them? Also, can you imagine how confusing JFK assassination research would be if Oswald did not merely have one or more lookalikes, but an actual goddamned identical twin? How can anyone be sure who they saw at any time, anywhere, unless both twins were together? Also, that letter, if tested, if there were fingerprints, would the twins' prints be distinguishable? If no prints, why, since Huff was meeting his doom (and creating it for others) and wouldn't have cared about leaving them? Finally, I did notice a couple more misspellings in the letter, bringing the total to about 5, depending on your standards. Not spelling so poor it would have sank his high school GPA. But yeah, I missed a couple. Once upon a time, though I had no real intention of such a career, I was just trying to appease relatives, I scored a 97 on the police entrance exam. Now maybe I'd get a mere 95. But 97 must have been good that year, because they kept sending me postcards begging me to come in for an interview, which, naturally, I never did. But I would've been one hell of a detective, probably. Better than Fox, lol! Okay, sleepy time, for real.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:16 am

From all the mainstream stories, it seemed like Huff's first rave was the night he killed. Now he was also at a rave two weeks earlier?


Ugggh, so tired (lol, justdrew, really just tired, I swear) but have to note to myself that I had already posted an item about Better Off Undead not being his first rave, and it must've slipped my tired mind:

Tests to determine whether Huff had taken drugs before the killings are at least two weeks away. But at least one local teen who ran into Huff at a St. Patrick's Day rave said it appeared he took drugs then.

Jolene Padgett, 17, of Snohomish said Huff seemed incapacitated. "I'm surprised he didn't end up in the hospital."


Next sentences, actually...

Huff's interest in the local rave scene may have started recently.

In a message posted on a rave Web site, someone who identified himself as Kyle Huff wrote, "Hey, I've never been to a rave in Seattle and was wondering if anyone could tell me when one is coming up. It's the 1st of February 2006 right now."


No article I've seen seems to catalog the number of raves he attended, the dates.
But, I guess there are many more articles to read, discrepancies to sniff, confusion to sort.
In the meantime, I should probably tone down the natural instinct to go "WTF!?", until complete.
Except...James Winn, WTF.

Iamwhomiam, you wouldn't happen to have a list of every url for every article ever about it, would you?
If you ever retrieve the data dump that's in the old computer, I'd be interested in seeing it all.

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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby elfismiles » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:52 am

RE: first rave or not ... didn't iamwhoiam or someone say that Huff had been tracking the rave scene or somesuch in a premeditated way ... here it is:

"Iamwhomiam » 28 Mar 2013 02:26

He had been shopping around looking for the right rave to fully unleash his firepower since January."

viewtopic.php?p=496337#p496337

I'd guess the internet forum posts asking about rave dates plus general chatter from the brothers about rave culture in general are the source.
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Re: Remembrance of the "Better Off Undead" event of 3-25-06

Postby FourthBase » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:15 am

elfismiles wrote:RE: first rave or not ... didn't iamwhoiam or someone say that Huff had been tracking the rave scene or somesuch in a premeditated way ... here it is:

"Iamwhomiam » 28 Mar 2013 02:26

He had been shopping around looking for the right rave to fully unleash his firepower since January."

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/ ... 37#p496337

I'd guess the internet forum posts asking about rave dates plus general chatter from the brothers about rave culture in general are the source.


What doesn't make sense is, why would he have felt the need to shop around in such a manner, when he had a buddy from Montana right there in Seattle who was promoting raves? And, this rave promoter buddy from Montana happened to wind up knowing each of the eventual victims? Was Huff(s) in contact with Winn in Seattle? Did he try to contact Winn? Did he know what Winn was doing in Seattle?
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