Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:17 am

stickdog99 wrote:Look, my fear precedence is certainly subject to change, and I can understand why people closer to scene would disagree with me. There are countless times I am ecstatic to see good cops doing their jobs.

But right now, seeing people cheering their neighborhoods' transformation into what looks to me very much like Iraqi military zones scares me more than a couple of lone crazies armed with 9 (give or take a few tossed out the Mercedes window) homemade bombs.

When the Blue Angels dive bomb your home in Boston, do you swell with pride about our awesome Air Force's ability to serve and protect US interests, or do you, like me, find it difficult not to imagine what it would be like to suffer their wrath?


That's just it. Closer to the scene. What looks like to you. Very much? No, not so much.
Were these two insanely armed, #2 being a one-man army? Yep, looks like it.
Was the city or even whole neighborhoods literally turned into war zones? No.
There were very specific spots which looked like a war zone, where the warfare actually was.

Again, these two are in your neighborhood. What do you really want?

When the Blue Angels do that, yes, I imagine what you imagine.
I also imagine what similar pilots did to Nazi Germany, and I silently thank those ghosts.

Stereoscopy. It's much, much better and realer than one-eyed-ness.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:30 am

stickdog99 wrote:
FourthBase wrote:What should have been done? What could have happened where you and stickdog and whoever would have been like, "Oh, well, I guess I can see the point of that" or "Yeah, thankfully this thing happened but not that thing" or "Wow, I guess I expected something very different, much worse...but this thing was surprisingly not that worst case, not that bad, maybe even good"?


Regular old police, with the help of vigilant and intrepid citizen detectives (internet and otherwise), should have done their best to identify and catch the perps.

Did the massively extreme show of force actually help anything?


Yes. It did. Having 100 cops ready to shoot around every corner kept the suspect from being able to get out of the neighborhood to re-arm himself or to get away by (for example) taking another hostage and car.

That's why he was hiding under the boat, helpless, when he was found, whereas prior to the show of force, he was driving around with bombs and guns.

I'm sorry if I was more of a jerk to you earlier than I should have been.

But the sites that are flogging those "the show of force did nothing because he was found after it!" talking points aren't doing anybody any favors by acting like that means something. It's the opposite of thought.


While I must admit the overt fascistic fashion show scares me, what really scares me is the deafeningly loud applause for the fascism, here, there and everywhere else.


I'm still not applauding. I'm not a fan of cops beating, shooting or kicking in the doors of innocent people for no reason. I just don't see the point of objecting to it when it's not happening.

And I am fucking terrified that the sight of the paramilitary units


They were cops.

locking down


Yeah.

    SCENARIO #1: Police order people stay inside for about as long as they might during a hurricane because there might be a shoot-out in the streets. They then go house to house searching for a suspect.

    SCENARIO #2: Police order people to stay inside for no reason, regularly, without regard for their rights, needs or welfare, just because they can They then go house to house, smashing shit, intimidating people, and breaking heads.

See any material differences there?

What happens when the "terrorism" is "perpetrated" by wholly justified anti-corporate demonstrators?


I don't know. Can you be a little more "specific" about what the "perpetrators" are suspected of "doing"?

Do y'all applaud when the cavalry marches from door to door to smoke out whoever is hiding Sacco and Vanzetti?


How is that parallel, ffs?
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:35 am

divideandconquer wrote:What about what good old Ben Franklin said?
"Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither."


And the freedom that was sacrificed here was...?
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:51 am

I'm still not applauding. I'm not a fan of cops beating, shooting or kicking in the doors of innocent people for no reason. I just don't see the point of objecting to it when it's not happening.


But that...didn't happen? Right?
So...yes, maybe applaud? Yeah?

Or is it what some of them might have done in the past? Or, tomorrow?
If so, I can see that. I can see how it might then look like empty kayfabe, even.

http://www.edge.org/q2011/q11_16.html#weinstein

But if the incessant bully at school stops that one kid blasting other kids with a shotgun and bombs...
Sorry, I'm going to applaud that bully. For one night, at least. Loudly. Tearfully. Proudly.
Yeah, the school might then transform, become pro-bully. It's possible.
But hey, maybe the bully is the one who's transformed. It's possible.

What some people might not quite be understanding, might be misperceiving:
What was being cheered was not, "Thank you for invading our neighborhoods with tanks."
It was not even merely, "Thank you for catching that maniac, by any means necessary, whew."
Realize that it was: "Thank you for catching him, responsibly, and not harming anyone else."

If you think that's a low bar to set, then why would you be surprised?
And, do you not remember what the LAPD did while hunting Dorner?
Of course you remember. So: LAPD or BPD...which wins?

And now, all these cops, do you think they don't get the message, as they're applauded?
Some of them might feel like the clapping just re-affirms a license to power-trip, sure.
But most will know: They love us because we didn't hurt them and we did our job, well.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby justdrew » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:56 am

divideandconquer - FYI, there's no evidence to support that hurricane Andrew story, and plenty of reason to believe it's old anti-government militia propaganda. I know it's been floating around for many years. Sure there may have been some more than the known four deaths, among illegal aliens or homeless populations etc. but hundreds? Nope, I don't think so. There would at least be an organization of family members looking for their missing at some point in the last couple decades.

don't assume only the government is capable of producing propaganda.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:19 am

Back to the younger brother and the former/latter thing...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/20/us/boston ... index.html

(CNN) -- As the world hunted him, the younger brother suspected in the Boston Marathon bombings acted like any other college sophomore.
Dzhokar Tsarnaev, 19, was on the campus of University of Massachusetts-Dartmouth every day after the attack until late Thursday, a university official told CNN. Tsarnaev attended classes and dorm parties and went to the gym while the rest of Boston came to a tense standstill.
A student at the school told The Boston Globe that she saw Tsarnaev at a party Wednesday night that was attended by some of his friends from intramural soccer.
"He was just relaxed," she said, asking the paper not to print her name.
Another UMass Dartmouth student said he talked about the bombing with Tsarnaev for several minutes Tuesday while they were working out at the gym. Tsarnaev seemed normal, perhaps a little tired, Zach Bettencourt told CNN.
Bettencourt said he told Tsarnaev something about the bombing, to the effect of, "You hear about this kind of thing happening in Iraq and Afghanistan, but not here."
"He was like, 'Yeah, tragedies happen like this all the time and it's sad,' " Bettencourt said, adding he had no inkling about anything suspicious with Tsarnaev, whom he described as a nice guy.

The days-long drama that gripped Boston -- and the world -- began when two homemade bombs made from pressure cookers exploded 12 seconds apart near the finish line of Monday's Boston Marathon. Three people were killed, and more than 170 wounded as nails, ball bearings, BBs and shards of broken glass were blasted through the viewing area.
Law enforcement officials combed through photos and surveillance videos, searching for clues to who detonated the bombs. The FBI released photos showing two men they were seeking and asked for the public's help.
Suspects: Immigrant dream to American nightmare
At the dorm where Tsarnaev lived, students joked Thursday as they viewed the FBI photos on television, a senior who lived in the suspect's dorm told The Boston Globe.
"We made a joke like, that could be Dzhokar," said Pamala Rolon. "But then we thought it just couldn't be him. Dzhokar? Never."
A tense scene began to unfold Thursday night -- complete with wailing sirens, flashes of blue and red lights, a hail of bullets and explosions from homemade bombs. By early Friday morning, Tsarnaev's older brother, Tamerlan, 26, was dead. Dzhokar Tsarnaev was bleeding as he stole away into the night.
On campus nobody was joking. The school posted a message on its website: "UMass Dartmouth has learned that a person being sought in connection with the Boston Marathon bombing has been identified as a student registered at UMass Dartmouth. The campus is closed. Individuals on campus should shelter in place unless instructed otherwise."
Older suspect grew increasingly religious, analysis shows
The manhunt for Dzhokar Tsarnaev lasted all day Friday and left Boston streets deserted as police asked everyone to stay indoors. Then after the request was lifted, authorities got a tip: A Watertown man told police someone was hiding in his boat in the backyard, bleeding. It was their suspect, Watertown police Chief Edward Deveau said.
Officers spotted Tsarnaev poking through the tarp covering the boat, and a shootout erupted, Deveau said. Police used "flash-bangs," devices meant to stun people with a loud noise, and negotiated with Tsarnaev for about half an hour.
Chief describes how manhunt ended
"We used a robot to pull the tarp off the boat," David Procopio of the Massachusetts State Police said. "We were also watching him with a thermal imaging camera in our helicopter. He was weakened by blood loss -- injured last night, most likely."
A thermal image photograph, released Saturday by the state police, showed what authorities say was Tsarnaev lying in the middle of the boat.
Police had no idea whether he had weapons or explosives with him, so they repeatedly told him to stand up and lift his shirt to show he wasn't wearing a device, Deveau said.
Eventually Tsarnaev stood up and lifted his shirt for the officers.
"Once we saw that, we felt comfortable enough to send some officer tactical equipment to grab him and pull him away from the boat," Deveau said. He was taken by ambulance to a hospital.
Police are confident there are no other suspects, Deveau said.
"These two acted together and alone," he said. "As far as this little cell and this little group, I think we got our guys."


He's either an unconscionable psychopath, a brainwashed pawn, or a total patsy. Right?
Or am I missing any other possibility?
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:30 am

More on that subject, the character of these two:

http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/cam ... ol-2013-4/

Very quickly detected serious horseshit re: Cambridge vs. Boston...

There is the people’s republic of Massachusetts, and then there is conservative, de facto segregated lace-curtain Boston within it, and then there’s the still more exceptional nation of Cambridge, awash with Ph.D.’s and worldly, upwardly mobile intellectuals, living together in the most cultured, highest-I.Q. municipality in all of Greater Boston. The richest people in Cambridge have a number of private schools to choose from, but everyone else is welcome at Rindge.


Uhhh...lol, what? #authorhasneversetfootinboston #newyorkerlowblowfalsehood

No mention of Patrick Ewing, either, which is shocking for a NY publication, seriously.
And depending on which track you're put on, it can be quite an elite school.
And it's not technically the only public high school in Cambridge, but sure.
And "anti-American resentment" could encompass some in the Cambridge extreme left?
And I'd love to see the citywide IQ tests alluded to. Uh, link? Southie might surprise him.

Actually, on second thought, this article is atrocious, lol.
But worth a read, anyway.

Screw it, for that nonsense about Boston, I'm pasting it all, denying it some page views:

The Cambridge Rindge and Latin School, where Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev both went to high school, is not a private school and it’s not an elite school. What makes ­Rindge special, apart from the fact that Ben Affleck and Matt Damon went there (and e. e. cummings long before them), is that it is the only public high school in Cambridge, what could be the most tolerant and accepting place imaginable for two Chechen boys looking to find their place in the world. Tamerlan, the older brother, cycled through only briefly. He was an athlete, but also played in the jazz ensemble, a smiling, benign presence out of the boxing ring. Dzhokhar, six years younger and a wrestler, was more social and, by all accounts, assimilated into American culture. “He wasn’t them,” one parent told a reporter last week. “He was us. He was Cambridge.”

See Also
• The Perils of Crowd-Source Nation
• In Consensual Lockdown a Good Thing?
• The Roar of Young Male Rage
• What Does a Terrorist Look Like?

[Interesting set of article teasers]

When the full story of Tamerlan and Dzhokhar is written, it will, at least to some extent, be about a tortured search for identity—an immigrant family’s struggle for purpose and meaning. But what makes that story all the more incredible is that for their formative teenage years, the brothers grew up where they did, in possibly the least plausible breeding ground for anti-American resentment.

There is the people’s republic of Massachusetts, and then there is conservative, de facto segregated lace-curtain Boston within it, and then there’s the still more exceptional nation of Cambridge, awash with Ph.D.’s and worldly, upwardly mobile intellectuals, living together in the most cultured, highest-I.Q. municipality in all of Greater Boston. The richest people in Cambridge have a number of private schools to choose from, but everyone else is welcome at Rindge.

There was nothing unusual about two boys from a Chechen family roaming the halls of Rindge. In the context of Cambridge, and this school in particular, they weren’t even considered foreigners.

Rindge is believed to be one of the most ethnically diverse high schools in the country. That diversity is a badge of honor, for the school and the city. “About ten years ago,” one old resident says, “Cambridge changed the zoning so you don’t go to your neighborhood school, because they want every school to look like the city of Cambridge.” They also rejiggered the “house system” at Rindge, a sort of school-within-a-school, to make sure that diversity ran all through the school. Today, some kids speak Creole in the hallways, some girls wear head scarves, and no one thinks twice. “I knew students who were from Haiti, the Dominican Republic, the Philippines, South Korea, China, Ethiopia, as well as some from France and Germany,” says Charlotte Petty, who overlapped with Dzhokhar. “I remember students celebrating Haitian flag day. I remember the Haitian cooking club selling food at lunch.”

White kids make up about a third of the student body, and blacks slightly more. “You wouldn’t find as much economic diversity there as you would at, say, Boston Latin,” [TRUE THAT, lol] says Charlotte’s older brother, Dan, who remembers Tamerlan as a goofy, gentle presence in the halls. Of course, all high schools have cliques. The smart kids were all tracked together, as they are at a lot of schools, only mixing with the general population for electives and homeroom. Rindge’s cliques seemed to resist ethnic lines. Dzhokhar wrestled on the school team for three years and was captain for two. His coach called him “one of the most well-adjusted kids on the team,” getting along with all the different subgroups.

Rindge’s proximity to Harvard lends it no special status, except maybe in its overrepresentation of Harvard volunteer SAT tutors and the Harvard student teachers cycling through to do their practicum. What Rindge has instead is a distinct pride of place. “The amount of cultural capital of growing up in Cambridge is so high,” Dan says. “And the level of appreciation of other cultures is also quite high, which is why I was so shocked. It didn’t surprise me that someone was capable of doing heinous things. But the fact that they came from Cambridge shocked me.” [What, if they were from Dorchester or Charlestown, you'd be like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense"? Douche.]

A few years ago, when the school needed a motto, the principal asked the student body to come up with three words to describe what the school was. Over months, students were given time in homeroom to suggest and discuss the choices. Out of hundreds of words, the winning three were “opportunity,” “diversity,” and “respect.”


Most of the ways the city and school are depicted is true, though. And it makes what happened all the stranger, i.e., less likely to have been an authentic, organic transformation into the disconnected, resentful terrorists the mainstream networks are presenting them as.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:04 am

compared2what? wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:
FourthBase wrote:What should have been done? What could have happened where you and stickdog and whoever would have been like, "Oh, well, I guess I can see the point of that" or "Yeah, thankfully this thing happened but not that thing" or "Wow, I guess I expected something very different, much worse...but this thing was surprisingly not that worst case, not that bad, maybe even good"?


Regular old police, with the help of vigilant and intrepid citizen detectives (internet and otherwise), should have done their best to identify and catch the perps.

Did the massively extreme show of force actually help anything?


Yes. It did. Having 100 cops ready to shoot around every corner kept the suspect from being able to get out of the neighborhood to re-arm himself or to get away by (for example) taking another hostage and car.

That's why he was hiding under the boat, helpless, when he was found, whereas prior to the show of force, he was driving around with bombs and guns.

I'm sorry if I was more of a jerk to you earlier than I should have been.

But the sites that are flogging those "the show of force did nothing because he was found after it!" talking points aren't doing anybody any favors by acting like that means something. It's the opposite of thought.


While I must admit the overt fascistic fashion show scares me, what really scares me is the deafeningly loud applause for the fascism, here, there and everywhere else.


I'm still not applauding. I'm not a fan of cops beating, shooting or kicking in the doors of innocent people for no reason. I just don't see the point of objecting to it when it's not happening.

And I am fucking terrified that the sight of the paramilitary units


They were cops.

locking down


Yeah.

    SCENARIO #1: Police order people stay inside for about as long as they might during a hurricane because there might be a shoot-out in the streets. They then go house to house searching for a suspect.

    SCENARIO #2: Police order people to stay inside for no reason, regularly, without regard for their rights, needs or welfare, just because they can They then go house to house, smashing shit, intimidating people, and breaking heads.

See any material differences there?

What happens when the "terrorism" is "perpetrated" by wholly justified anti-corporate demonstrators?


I don't know. Can you be a little more "specific" about what the "perpetrators" are suspected of "doing"?

Do y'all applaud when the cavalry marches from door to door to smoke out whoever is hiding Sacco and Vanzetti?


How is that parallel, ffs?


I have completely resisted quoting you or responding to you directly to this point, even though you have obviously consciously sought to engage my every observation at every turn, whether directed toward you or not.

I believe FourthBase is 100% sincere, and thus I respect him.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:14 am

FourthBase wrote:
I'm still not applauding. I'm not a fan of cops beating, shooting or kicking in the doors of innocent people for no reason. I just don't see the point of objecting to it when it's not happening.


But that...didn't happen? Right?
So...yes, maybe applaud? Yeah?.

Or is it what some of them might have done in the past? Or, tomorrow?


No, not exactly....
...

I don't know. 'It's just not one of the things in life I root for. I'm definitely glad and relieved that everyone who didn't get hurt or killed didn't, though.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:17 am

stickdog99 wrote:
I have completely resisted quoting you or responding to you directly to this point, even though you have obviously consciously sought to engage my every observation at every turn, whether directed toward you or not.

I believe FourthBase is 100% sincere, and thus I respect him.


I was engaged by and conversing with you. But I'll respect your disrespect for me, if that's what you prefer.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Jerky » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:24 am

It seems to me that, in real world terms, every expression of state power must be evaluated on an individual level, based mostly upon the general public's opinion of said expression, rather than cherry-picking elements of that expression that certain individuals find distasteful on a "rulebook" basis.

If the people of Boston are, by vast majority, satisfied that "fascism" has not visited their city in the form of jack-booted thuggery, then - again, it seems to me - that we should be at least somewhat satisfied that what happened in Boston in the wake of the bombings was NOT so terrible. After all, fascism is what fascists do.

That being said, it is good to be on guard.

I guess my point is that the situation is fluid (as are all situations, philosophically speaking) and we're all of us just feeling our way through this life.

For the most part, the authorities in Boston, and most of America, I believe have the best interests of their constituents at heart. And I am cheered by this fact.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, I highly suspect that the Powers That Be in Boston (and elsewhere in America) are going to be VERY MUCH aware of the fact that it was NOT their militarized tactics that finally uncovered the suspect, but a solitary concerned citizen. And of utmost importance in this scenario is the fact that the citizen in question was sufficiently sympathetic and INVESTED in the power structure in which he lives to feel like it was either his duty or to his benefit to contact the authorities and HELP THEM in this case.

Bottom line, and the message everyone should take away from this, is that the Big Guys need the Little Guys just as much as the Little Guys need the Big Guys.

There's a seriously MASSIVE lesson in there somewhere.

Cheers!
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:35 am

compared2what? wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:
I have completely resisted quoting you or responding to you directly to this point, even though you have obviously consciously sought to engage my every observation at every turn, whether directed toward you or not.

I believe FourthBase is 100% sincere, and thus I respect him.


I was engaged by and conversing with you. But I'll respect your disrespect for me, if that's what you prefer.


Thank you, responsebot, I am also currently awake. In another less serious world, I would enjoy diluting conversation by responding to you point by point.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:55 am

Guns, CNN & Steel

"We have reason to believe, based upon the evidence that was found at the scene -- the explosions, the explosive ordnance that was unexploded and the firepower -- that they were going to attack other individuals," Davis said Sunday on CBS News' "Face the Nation."

He did not say whether investigators had identified a specific target.

Authorities believe the brothers bought bomb components locally but their guns came from elsewhere, another federal law enforcement official said. The official, who was not authorized to publicly discuss the case, said authorities are trying to trace the guns.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stefano » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:14 am

Craig Murray, always worth a read:

The Tsarnaev Conundrum

Cui Bono? Putin. The alleged actions of the Tsarnaev brothers are a massive setback to the cause of Chechen nationalism. The Russian government have been trying for a decade to conflate the repression of Chechen nationalism with the western construct of “the global war on terror”, with very limited diplomatic success. Now expect to hear continually about “Al Qaeda in the Southern Caucasus” in the next few years. Events in Boston have been a massive diplomatic coup for Putin.

In the late 1830′s, Palmerston launched a (disastrous) secret service operation to ship weapons to anti-Russian rebels in modern Chechnya and Dagestan. This was contributory to the tensions that caused the First Anglo-Afghan War, and will feature in my forthcoming biography of Alexander Burnes. For almost two hundred years now there has been covert Western encouragement of anti-Russian movements in the Caucasus – which is not to say that the West was involved in or encouraged the urban terrorist wing of the Chechen nationalist movement in modern times. But links between Chechen nationalists and the US government have been maintained, and there is no support whatsoever among any significant Chechen nationalist leadership for the Boston bombings.

I cannot recommend too highly “Darkness at Dawn” by David Satter, a book which is crucial to an understanding of a key part of the modern world. Satter sets out an extremely strong case, from eyewitness interviews at the time, that The “Chechen” apartment bombings which paid such a crucial part in building the cult of Putin, were false flag – something which the British Embassy in Moscow also strongly inclined to believe. There is a history of false Chechen bombings being very helpful to Putin. These bombings are very helpful to Putin.

It is perfectly possible that this is not relevant at all, and the Tsarnaev brothers became radicalised in the United States by real, and non-Chechen related, terrorists, or simply auto-radicalised. But presuming the Tsarnaevs really did plant these bombs, just who was ultimately pulling the strings and why may be an extremely complex question – and one to which young Dzokhar Tsarnaev is most unlikely to know the real answer.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:15 am

Police State on Display

.....

The argument that the lock-down might have spared people from being shot by the fleeing Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is absurd. Considered armed and dangerous, he might, instead of slipping inside a canvas-covered boat, have broken into a home and taken a family hostage. In fact, arguably had people been out and about, Tsarnaev would probably never have managed to escape unnoticed on foot from the 20-block perimeter police had established around the scene of the initial shootout in Watertown. People would have noticed him wounded and running. Instead, they were all huddled inside their locked homes.
......

Fascists like Sens. Lindsay Graham (R-SC) and John McCain (R-AZ) are calling for the US to forget the Constitution altogether, and to declare American citizen Tsarnaev an “enemy combatant,” thus depriving him of the right even to a trial, forget the Miranda thing. They want him run through some kangaroo military tribunal and then executed.
.....

At that point, we are in a police state.

What we are seeing in Boston is a preview of that police state — a kind of “coming attractions” look at it. The mindless post-capture applause for the army of police who implemented the “lock-down” of the city after the marathon bombing was part and parcel of that police state.

Someday, those cheering images will make a great clip in some Leni Riefenstahl-style propaganda film glorifying whoever is the current maximum leader of the American dictatorship.


Prosecuting the Boston Marathon Bombing Suspect

Posted on Apr 22, 2013
By Bill Blum

“We’ll give him a fair trial, then we’ll hang him,” an apocryphal admonition believed to derive from the days of frontier justice and that has since been reprised in movies, television Westerns and op-ed columns advises.

Now that we have Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in custody, the country is ready to follow that old advice and give the accused a trial. We’re just not certain about the “fair” part.

Even as the 19-year-old Tsarnaev remains in a Boston-area hospital unable to speak because of a wound to his throat, the uncertainty has been expressed largely on two fronts: whether to read Tsarnaev his Miranda rights, and whether to charge him—or at least temporarily hold and treat him—as an “enemy combatant” subject to the Military Commissions Act.

At the early stages, President Obama and the Department of Justice announced their intention to delay giving Tsarnaev his Miranda rights while a chorus of influential Republicans, including Sens. John McCain of Arizona, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire, and Rep. Peter King of New York, have called for Tsarnaev to be tried before a military tribunal like the detainees imprisoned at Guantanamo.

Although understandable in the heat of the moment after the deadly attacks, neither stratagem is necessary from a legal or practical perspective. Moreover, both threaten to further erode American civil liberties and revive the climate of post-9/11 hysteria

Authorities justified the decision not to Mirandize Tsarnaev under the “public safety” exception to the rule. First recognized by the Supreme Court in the 1984 case New York v. Quarles, the exception was designed to permit police to engage in limited and focused questioning of suspects before reciting Miranda warnings as a safeguard against immediate threats to public safety. Just how immediate the threats had to be before the exception applied is apparent from the facts of the Quarles case itself, in which police officers confronted the defendant, an alleged rapist, in a supermarket where they discovered upon frisking him that he was wearing an empty shoulder holster. Under the circumstances, the Supreme Court held, police were justified in asking Quarles at the scene of his arrest where his gun was before reading him his rights.
The war on terror, however, has brought about a broad expansion of the public safety exception. In March 2011, The New York Times disclosed the existence of an internal FBI memo that not only reminded agents involved in the interrogation of terrorism suspects about the public safety exception, but went on to instruct that “[t]here may be exceptional cases in which, although all relevant public safety questions have been asked, agents nonetheless conclude that continued unwarned interrogation is necessary to collect valuable and timely intelligence not related to any immediate threat. … ”

Despite the length of time Tsarnaev has been in custody and despite Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick’s assurances that there is “no basis for concern about another imminent threat,” a special FBI interrogation unit reportedly began questioning Tsarnaev in writing without Miranda warnings after he regained consciousness Sunday evening.

No matter how bold the decision to steam ahead under the public safety exception may seem, it could prove to be a costly mistake for both the prosecution of Tsarnaev and the long-term interests of the criminal justice system and the country as a whole. The DOJ’s expansion of the public safety exception is an invention of the executive branch crafted without judicial oversight or review. As applied to Tsarnaev, the exception would create the unnecessary risk of an appellate court reversing an eventual conviction because of a Miranda violation.

Invoking the exception so long after Tsarnaev’s arrest will also exacerbate popular misconceptions about the social costs of the Miranda rule and promote the dangerous idea that constitutional rights can and should be sacrificed or curtailed whenever the state deems necessary.

Long criticized by law-and-order hard-liners for hindering criminal prosecutions, the Miranda rule in practice has proven to have little, if any, actual adverse impact. Notwithstanding Miranda, three out of every four arrested suspects agree to speak with police, with a reported range of 50 to 75 percent issuing confessions of guilt. Even more important, according to NYU Law professor Stephen Schulhofer, the net effect on the overall conviction rate of excluding statements obtained in violation of Miranda has been negligible.

The Miranda rule is aimed at striking a balance between the need for efficient law enforcement and the need to prevent abuses in interrogation. In view of the wealth of video and forensic evidence that will no doubt be marshaled against Tsarnaev, there is no reason to upset that balance.

Nor is there any good reason to test the limits of due process by subjecting Tsarnaev, a naturalized U.S. citizen, to what would be an unprecedented trial before a military commission rather than a civilian court. Since 9/11, 90 percent of terrorism cases tried in federal courts have resulted in convictions. In New York’s federal courts, the conviction rate is 100 percent.

The Obama administration so far has resisted the call for a military commission to try Tsarnaev as an enemy combatant, opting instead to proceed against him for the bombing fatalities in federal court on terrorism charges, which carry the potential of the death penalty. In Massachusetts, where capital punishment has been abolished, Tsarnaev may also face murder charges in the shooting death of an MIT security officer. Even if he avoids execution, Tsarnaev will never be freed.

In the coming weeks and months, the administration’s handling of the case and the fairness with which it operates will be closely watched by the nation and the world. And that’s how it should be, with the proceedings conducted in a public trial in a civilian court, rather than before a military commission cloaked in secrecy, as far too much official policy since 9/11 has been.


He lived in a protected zone, after all, a place that was supposed to be sealed off from history, isolated from the blood and turmoil of the world. But of course that was a lie.
Last edited by seemslikeadream on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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