TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:53 pm

Dear TED, Is It 'Bad Science' or a 'Game of Thrones'?
Posted: 04/18/2013 8:51 am

By Deepak Chopra, MD. FACP, Stuart Hameroff, MD, Menas C. Kafatos, Ph.D., Rudolph E. Tanzi, Ph.D., and Neil Theise, MD

One of modern science's great strengths is that any questionable finding dies a quick death if it's invalid. The safeguards are mainly two: Your new finding must be repeatable when other researchers run the same experiments, and peer review by qualified scientists subjects every new finding to microscopic scrutiny. So it surprised the millions of admirers of TED, whose conferences attract wide attention to new, cutting-edge ideas, when that organization decided to practice semi-censorship.

The flap is over two videos of TEDx talks delivered in the UK in January that were summarily removed from TEDx's YouTube channel (TEDx is the brand name for conferences outside the main TED events that are allowed to use the TED trademark, such as TEDxBoston or TEDxBaghdad -- so far, about 5,000 such events have used the name). This amounts only to semi-censorship because the videos were reposted on TED's blog site. Yet the reputations of the two presenters, Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock, were besmirched. In a letter to all the TEDx organizers, Chris Anderson, the head of TED, proposed certain "red flag" topics, among them health hoaxes and the medicinal value of food but also the general area of pseudoscience. The response has been decidedly negative -- scientists don't like the suppression of free thinking -- and among the thousands of comments aired on the Internet, one pointed out that Sheldrake and Hancock spoke at a TEDx conference explicitly dedicated to ideas that challenge mainstream thinking.

There's no need to stir the coals. TED has been badly singed already. At a cursory glance, much of Anderson's letter sounds reasonable: TED has every right to give guidelines to conferences using their name. Who's in favor of health hoaxes and pseudoscience? As it happens, Sheldrake's talk was on "The Science Delusion" and covered ten dogmas in mainstream science that need to be examined; there wasn't a hint of bad science in it. Hancock's talk was on consciousness and psychedelics, a topic without fangs for anyone who has heard of the Sixties, much less lived through them. Even as the videos were begrudgingly reposted, TED felt justified in tagging them as "radical" and attaching a "health warning".

Yet something quite pivotal is occurring that inflames strong feelings. The decision to remove the two videos was apparently instigated by angry, noisy bloggers who promote militant atheism. Their target was a burgeoning field, the exploration of consciousness. For generations bringing up consciousness as a scientific topic was taboo. In the wildly popular fantasy novels by George R. R. Martin, "A Game of Thrones," now running as an equally mad success on HBO, the mythical kingdom of Westeros is divided by a great wall 700 feet high. On the other side of the wall are lethal enemies and malefic magic. For centuries, no one has seen the zombie-like White Walkers who live on the other side of the wall, nor the dragons that once ravaged Westeros.

Even so, after magic and zombies fell into disbelief, a hereditary band of guardians swore an oath to keep watch at the wall, generation after generation. TED has put itself in rather the same position. What the militant atheists and self-described skeptics hate is a certain brand of magical thinking that endangers science. In particular, there is the bugaboo of "non-local consciousness," which causes the hair on the back of their necks to stand on end. A layman would be forgiven for not grasping why such an innocent-sounding phrase could spell danger to "good science."

The reason becomes clear when you discover that non-local consciousness means the possibility that there is mind outside the human brain or even outside material reality, that a conscious mind is in some way intrinsic to the quantum universe, and that we all are quantum entangled. One of us (Menas Kafatos) has devoted many years of research on the connection of quantum theory to consciousness. Four of us (Stuart Hameroff, Rudolph Tanzi, Neil Thiese, and Deepak Chopra) have devoted years of research to neuroscience, clinical studies and consciousness. For millennia it went without question that such a mind exists; it was known as God. Fearing that God is finding a way to sneak back into the kingdom through ideas of quantum consciousness, militant atheists go on the attack against near-death experiences, telepathy, action at a distance, and all manifestations of purpose-driven evolution. Like the guardians in "A Game of Thrones," these militants haven't actually looked over the wall, and given their absolute conviction that the human brain is the only source of awareness in the universe, you'd think that speculative thinking on the subject wouldn't be so threatening. (Most people wouldn't picket a convention of werewolves in their hometown. It's not hard to tell what is fantasy.)

But TED took the threat seriously enough that Anderson's letter warns against "the fusion of science and spirituality," and most disappointing of all, it tags as a sign of good science that "it does not fly in the face of the broad existing body of scientific knowledge." Even a newcomer to science knows about Copernicus, Galileo, and other great scientists whose theories countermanded the prevailing body of accepted knowledge. Einstein believed in a static universe at a time when early proponents of an expanding universe were ignored, and the early reception of the now-popular "multiverse" theory was scornful. The greatest breakthroughs rarely come by acts of conformity.

Anderson's letter is cautiously couched on the one hand -- he takes pains to divorce his warnings from outright bans and acknowledges that the dividing line between real science and pseudoscience is hardly sharp and clear. But the dose of cold water is frigid enough, since his red-flag subjects include "healing" of any kind (his quotation marks) and using neuroscience to explain various mind-body puzzles ("a lot of goofballs" inhabit this area).

TED finds itself on the wrong side of censorship, semi- or not. But this fracas actually opens a window. The general public -- and many working scientists -- isn't aware that consciousness has become a hot topic spanning many disciplines, and its acceptability is demarked by age. Older, established scientists tend to be dead set against it, while younger, upcoming scientists are fascinated. There are any number of books on "the conscious universe." There are peer-reviewed journals on consciousness and worldwide conferences on how to link mind and brain (the so-called "hard problem"). Nobody wants to guard the wall except the self-appointed watchers and minders who form a society for the suppression of curiosity (it should be noted that TED's Science Board, which undoubtedly plays a role in this dispute, remains anonymous).

Freedom of thought is going to win out, and certainly TED must be shocked by the avalanche of disapproval Anderson's letter has met with. The real grievance here isn't about intellectual freedom but the success of militant atheists at quashing anyone who disagrees with them. Their common tactic is scorn, ridicule, and contempt. The most prominent leaders, especially Richard Dawkins, refuse to debate on any serious grounds, and indeed they show almost total ignorance of the cutting-edge biology and physics that has admitted consciousness back into "good science."

Militant atheism is a social/political movement; In no way does it deserve to represent itself as scientific. Francis Collins, a self-proclaimed Christian, is an acclaimed geneticist who heads the National Institutes of Health. To date, Collins hasn't let any White Walkers or dragons over the wall. Dawkins, who has a close association with TED, gave a TED talk in 2002 where he said the following:

"It may sound as if I am about to preach atheism. I want to reassure you that that's not what I am going to do. In an audience as sophisticated as this one, that would be preaching to the choir. [scattered laughter] No, what I want to urge upon you is militant atheism."
In a society where militant atheism occupies a prestigious niche, disbelief in God is widespread, but it isn't synonymous with science. In his mega-bestseller "The God Delusion," Dawkins proclaims that religion is "the root of all evil." He describes teaching children about religion as "child abuse." He spoke publically on the occasion of a papal visit to London calling for the Pope to be arrested for "crimes against humanity." To propose, as Dawkins does, that science supports such extremist views is an errant misuse of science, if not a form of pseudoscience.

TED is a huge enterprise bringing cutting edge ideas to the world, and local TEDx organizers will no doubt feel a chill when they read Anderson's stern reproof: "It is not your audience's job to figure out if a speaker is offering legitimate science or not. It is your job." If the intent of this warning wasn't explicit enough, TEDx rescinded their trademark from a recent conference in West Hollywood because of "questionable" speakers, causing the cowed organizers to cancel the event before they reconsidered and held it without the coveted brand name. A call to caution is hard to tell from a desire to censor.

One of the authors of this article (Stuart Hameroff) recently gave a TEDx talk in Tucson where he made the point that critics of the possibility of consciousness outside the brain cannot explain consciousness inside the brain. While neuroscience is at a loss, the notion of consciousness being based on finer scale, deeper order quantum effects in microtubules inside brain neurons (the Penrose-Hameroff 'Orch OR model) has been boosted by recent discoveries of quantum resonances in microtubules, and anesthetic action on microtubules. Quantum entanglement could account for Rupert Sheldrake's findings, and consciousness occurring outside the brain. Stuart Hameroff's TEDx talk 'The future of consciousness' explains how this can scientifically happen. Should it be censored also?

But the main flaw in TED's position has been made abundantly clear. It isn't the organizers' job to exclude questionable science but a job shared between them and the audience. We're all adults here, right? Any speculative thinking worthy of the name should make somebody in the audience angry, inspire others, and leave the rest to decide if a challenging idea should be thrown out or not. Any other approach casts shame upon tolerance, imagination, and science itself.

Deepak Chopra, MD. FACP, ChopraFoundation.org/

Stuart Hameroff, MD, Professor of Anesthesiology and Psychology, Director, Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona, www.quantumconsciousness.org

Menas C. Kafatos, Ph.D., Fletcher Jones Endowed Professor in Computational Physics, Director, Center of Excellence, Chapman University,
Facebook: kafatos@chapman.edu

Rudolph E. Tanzi, Ph.D., Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard University, Director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital

Neil Theise, MD, Professor, Pathology and Medicine, (Division of Digestive Diseases) Beth Israel Medical Center -- Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York, www.neiltheise.com
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:26 am

Reply to Chris Anderson, TED and the TED Community: We're Halfway There, But..
Posted: 04/19/2013 10:10 pm

Dear Chris,

Thank you for clearing up some issues, particularly the confusion surrounding TEDx's decision to take down or shift the talks by Sheldrake and Hancock. Actions speak louder than words, and the talks were removed from the website, followed by your letter warning TEDx organizers essentially not to repeat the same mistake again by inviting similar talks. To underline the point, TEDx withdrew its brand name from a West Hollywood event that was by no means filled with "goofballs" or "questionable" figures.

TED has invited religious leaders to speak, but that's not at issue. The "fusion of science and spirituality" that you warned against in your guidelines is the issue. The animosity of militant atheists against consciousness studies and their stubborn defense of conservative mainstream science seem to be the background noise, at the very least, that colored your warnings. It's easy to envision that someone along the line at TED, seeing a talk entitled "The Science Delusion," recognized an attack on Dawkins and chopped the limb off the tree.

I'm grateful for the even-handedness that you say TED displays in matters of atheism, religion, and science. In 2002 I spoke directly after Dawkins, mounted a vigorous riposte to his main points, and received a standing ovation. His talk appears in full at TED's website. Mine doesn't, nor can it be found with a Google search. I'd be grateful to see it restored as a gesture of TED's lack of censorship.

TED is reacting to the widespread objections to your warnings/guidelines. This takes us halfway. An open forum without an anonymous science board giving thumbs up or thumbs down would go all the way. I recognize that TED is an independent organization; I am only making a suggestion. Please see the attached responses from accredited scientists and the broader community of concerned professionals, who have their own angle on the issues at hand.

Comments:

Dear Chris and TED:

I am actually thankful to TED for in some way what happened with this whole incident is bringing out some long-simmering issues in the scientific community, what is legitimate science at least as science is practiced today, how science may evolve, and other related issues; and also, and this is relevant to TED's apparent policies (I say apparent because it is not clear to me how the decision to remove the talks was reached and who was involved) how groups of self-appointed zealots are taking upon themselves to use labels and aggressive language to discredit what may after all turn out to be legitimate science. I won't repeat what many others already pointed out but science is evolving because of the change of the paradigms not by defending existing views. The latter, belongs to the realm of dogmatic belief systems.

Using terms like "goofballs" and "pseudo-science" doesn't really address the real issues at hand. There are so-called "scientists" who use these terms to promote their own cherished views and I am afraid, dogmas. Who is pseudo-scientist after all?

Someone who is trying to expand the horizons of science and is doing research at the intersection of different fields? If that is the case, then anyone doing research in consciousness, its relationship with fields like physics and psychology, and yes, neuroscience, should be labeled pseudo-scientist.

Or someone who has other agendas and using anonymity and labeling others, promotes his or her agenda? If that is the case, I submit to you, this is not science. Such attacks by so-called skeptics have been used at some universities to weed out unwelcome views (in the minds of the skeptics) and in the process adversely impact the careers of colleagues. We scientists are skeptics by the nature of inquiry but we should not use the methods of the self-labeled "skeptics".

Such methods belong to the history of some religious past to shut up "heretic" views. Today "defenders of the faith" don't burn heretics at the stake, they label them and try to exclude their views.

Science advances by dialogue, inquiry and exchange of ideas. Today dialogue is even more important than in the past, the community problems and issues that science is facing need the best of minds, and hearts, to come together. Science and philosophy, science and metaphysics, are complementary activities. Fields like global climate, neuroscience and consciousness and even quantum field theory, advance through intersection of ideas and methodologies, not by censorship.

I am a quantum physicist, cosmologist and Earth scientist, so I know these issues. We are now facing a grand revolution in scientific thought, through the dialogue between quantum theory, consciousness work, biology, and philosophy and psychology. TED has a great opportunity to help advance this transformation. I hope you do.

Menas C. Kafatos

Fletcher Jones Professor of Computational Physics
Chapman University
Orange, CA

_______________________________________________________________


TED apparently allows science, and religion, but not science which may be compatible with religion, e.g. quantum brain biology giving rise to the possibility of non-local entanglement among living beings, and the structure of the universe (Sheldrake's banned topic of 'morphic resonance' was an early, courageous attempt at such a bridge). How would the TED mavens explain quantum entanglement?

Regarding the disposition against pseudoscience and commercialization, what about the TED talk by Ray Kurzweil which makes outlandish (ridiculous, really) claims that brain equivalence including consciousness will soon be reached in computers by his Singularity approach. Total unscientific self-promotion. Whoever showed that neurons were simple bit-like states? What about a single cell organism like paramecium which swims around, finds food and mates, has sex and can learn, without any synapses? Kurzweil should simulate a paramecium before worrying about a brain. Where are the pseudoscience police on this one?

Stuart Hameroff MD
Professor, Anesthesiology and Psychology
Director, Center for Consciousness Studies
The University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona

___________________________________________________________________


I begin my reply with a quote from Nobel laureate, geneticist Barbara McClintock, as reported by Evelyn Fox Keller in A Feeling for the Organism:
"There's no such thing as a central dogma into which everything will fit. It turns out that any mechanism you can think of, you will find -- even if it's the most bizarre kind of thinking. Anything . . . even if it doesn't make much sense, it'll be there. . . . So if the material tells you, 'It may be this,' allow that. Don't turn it aside and call it an exception, an aberration, a contaminant. . . . That's what's happened all the way along the line with so many good clues."

Of course, not every scientist is a Barbara McClintock - who boldly and at great sacrifice to her own career prospects (until the "rediscovery" of her work late in life and the awarding of her Nobel) - kept on looking for those exceptions and aberrations and wove her hypotheses to encompass those most interesting "good clues." Most scientists, including some of those who have made breakthrough discoveries, carefully till the soil of our well-worn, well established paradigms. Others - like Sheldrake and Hancock - do their work by focusing on the bits left out: the exceptions, the aberrations.

Chris Anderson is correct that his job at TED, aided by his advisory boards, is to curate and, therefore, to make choices. I would offer this metaphorical example as a way to consider their task: We know a lot now about how ant colonies self organize and how the food lines in ant colonies arise to maximize the rapid access to new food sources for the colony. One question is: how does this line form so efficiently and how is it maintained until the task is accomplished? A vital question. But the framing of the question excludes something important. Not every ant is actually following the line. These were the ants that wound up in my mother's kitchen when I was a kid. I would feel sorry for the stupid ant who wound up somewhere it shouldn't and would try to get it outside before she saw and not only squashed, but called the exterminator.

But my mother intuited something I did not know. It is precisely the ants NOT following the line that are equally, if not more vital for the survival of the colony. The few ants that don't follow the line are the likeliest to find new food sources and establish new food lines when the old ones have exhausted their task. The ants in her kitchen were, in fact, a very good reason to call the exterminator. In complexity theory these divergent ants are an example of the necessary quenched disorder in the system, the unplanned, unconstrained activities - not too much, not too little - that allow the colony as a whole to explore new terrain, new food sources, new ways of organizing, to develop what complexity theorist Stuart Kauffman calls "the adjacent possible."

When TED commits itself to "ideas worth spreading" they are dabbling in divergent ant promotion: their speakers and their audiences do not build on the TED talks in a planned and organized way, the interactions of TED meetings foster the kind of quenched disorder in human society that allows us to find new ways of being in the world, at the individual and at the communal level, by juxtaposing speakers and audiences that would normally not have been able to find each other.

I think Sheldrake, and Hancock are divergent ants much as McClintock was. They may not be the ants that find the next food source and establish the new food line, but one never knows which one it will be. McClintock was critiqued and even ridiculed in ways not dissimilar to Sheldrake and Hancock have recently been by the TED team. She might have been wrong in her ideas. It turned out she was not. Sheldrake and Hancock may be wrong in their ideas, but we do not yet know. Even if they are, the creativity of their work and their insistence on looking at the aberrations and exceptions is certainly of value, at least to point the way to the kinds of creative explorations TED hopes to foster. They are ideas worth spreading precisely because of their bravery, creativity and care.

Neil Theise, MD
Professor, Pathology and Medicine
Division of Digestive Diseases
Beth Israel Medical Center - Albert Einstein College of Medicine

_________________________________________________________________


For centuries, intransigent voices argued that the following kind of question is meaningless: Can an ape think? What does an elephant feel? The reasons actually had nothing to do with whether these were "scientific" propositions in principle. They had to do with the philosophical and psychological prejudices held by the guardians of traditional science in biology, psychology and philosophy. The parallel to the TED debate is obvious.

In evolutionary biology and cognitive psychology, the last 25 years have witnessed a revolution in the philosophy of science for those fields. Given what we know about the operations of the minds of primates, corvids, cetaceans, octopi and other animals, no serious ethnologist would any longer suggest that it is non-scientific to ask the kinds of questions introduced above. In fact, the burden of proof has shifted dramatically so that those who question whether animals other than humans can be consciousness have more to explain if they disagree with those conclusions.

Censorship almost always arises from some political agenda. Let's do our best to keep it out of the study of consciousness.

Robert E. Sweeney, DA, MS
CEO
Challenger Corporation
Distinguished Alumnus
University of Memphis
Member Board of Directors
Foundation for Mind-Brain Sciences

____________________________________________________________________

If the history of science teaches us anything, it is that our most fundamental ideas about the world are probably wrong. Ideas that can be turned into technologies - even ideas about Higgs bosons - can be tested, in public, by experimentation. These ideas can be demonstrated, in public, to be either wrong, or close enough to right to be relied upon to develop further technologies. But fundamental ideas, ideas that have not yet been turned into technologies, cannot be tested except by exploring their logical consequences. The logical consequences of many of humanity's most cherished ideas have been shown to be wrong. We are not the center of the universe. We are not very different from other animals. Indeed our status in the world does not appear to be "special" in any way. These things can be said with confidence because the logical consequences of these cherished ideas directly conflict with ideas that can be tested, ideas about the cosmic microwave background, or about DNA, or about the symmetries of physical interactions.

It is the fundamental ideas that underpin not just our science but our lives, therefore, that should be subjected to the most rigorous and ruthless scrutiny. Our ideas about consciousness fall into this category. Human consciousness seems special: that alone should make us suspicious. Our consciously experienced memories support our personal identities: this should also make us suspicious. What is this phenomenon, consciousness? How does it relate to basic awareness? How does it relate to differential responsiveness to one's environment? Differential responsiveness to the environment is, after all, the only public evidence we have for consciousness. Electrons respond differentially to their environments. Does that mean they are conscious? Most people think free will and autonomous action require consciousness. Physicists debate whether electrons have free will and autonomy in the pages of mainstream journals.

A robust science of consciousness threatens no one but dogmatists. If experiments showed tomorrow that electrons were conscious, this result would threaten no one but dogmatists. If experiments demonstrated that human beings can communicate telepathically with plants, or that focused attention can affect the trajectories of distant particles, these results would threaten no one but dogmatists. Open discussion of such questions should, likewise, threaten no one but dogmatists. One hopes that organizations like TED will encourage such open discussion.

Chris Fields, Ph.D.
Chris Fields, Ph.D. is an information scientist interested in the human perception of objects as spatially and temporally bounded entities. He has published over 120 peer-reviewed papers.

___________________________________________________________________

The accusation that the work of researchers including Rupert Sheldrake, Russell Targ and others is 'pseudoscientific,' and that accordingly their presentations should be removed from TEDx, is one that is unjustifiable. As with any branch of science, their studies should be subject to intense scrutiny, and it may be that future work would reveal limitations in their approaches. Such is the core of the scientific enterprise. Nevertheless, the ideas they articulate have not been compromised by substantive scientific evidence, and casting aspersions on the integrity of their work is therefore tantamount to prejudice. Removing their talks is out-and-out censorship.

The deeper issue here concerns the challenge to understand consciousness, and the interplay between belief and methodology involved in meeting that challenge. Whilst the notion of 'belief' seems opposed to scientific advance as popularly construed, unsubstantiated assumptions frequently influence the kinds of hypotheses advanced and the lenses through which data are interpreted in the scientific world. In the case of consciousness the notion that its full causation will be found in the arena of neuronal processing is one such unsubstantiated assumption. There is no definitive evidence that such neurophysicalism is sustainable. There may be non-cerebral, and even non-physical (as currently understood), aspects to the basis of consciousness; we simply do not have the evidence to draw firm conclusions. The dominant paradigm entails assumptions drawn from the success in ascribing physical causation to other features of our world. But consciousness may be of a different order; it may not capable of analysis on the basis of such comparisons. Again, we simply do not know, and to castigate researchers for their openness to changing the paradigm ranks alongside the darker examples of prejudice that haunt human history.

The way in which we view consciousness has huge implications for our culture. To cite but one glaring example, a society that assumes that complex biological computation is the sole causal determinant of consciousness may rapidly decide that complex computation itself - as in computers of the future - is responsible for consciousness. Such a society will have squeezed the human spirit from its worldview, reducing what it is to be human to the level of what it is to be a super-computer. Is this a world we would wish to bequeath to our children? Too often the scientific community ignores the moral implications of stances it adopts. In cases where definitive evidence drives the stance, well and good; but where the stance stands on unfounded assumptions we are right to question it. The predominant scientific stance in the area of consciousness research is one that many of us wish to challenge. Let there be solid argument in the debate; not feeble accusations - such as that of 'pseudoscience.'

Brian L Lancaster PhD
Emeritus Professor of Transpersonal Psychology
Liverpool John Moores University, UK.

___________________________________________________________________

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. The consciousness studies community, made up of members from nearly every branch of science and academia, would like TED's anonymous scientific advisory board to be aware that the study of consciousness requires a new form of consideration: unlike traditional scientific subject matter we are obliged to look at awareness and experience as non-reductive processes and this requires an openness to exploring new methodologies, new forms of logic, new truth claims, and a different understanding of what constitutes proof. Additionally, we are finding it necessary to embrace the notion that many different perspectives and ideologies may be harboring a portion of the truth about consciousness. We find it necessary to be ideologically open to a variety of perspectives and approaches and we hope that TED will be able to partner with us in this important exploration. Rupert Sheldrake is a respected expert on the necessity of new forms of analysis so we were understandably shocked to see his work deemed unfit for the TED venue. Experiential approaches, including Graham Hancock's exploration of alternative states, represent an important aspect of our subject matter, and therefore of our research. We are saddened to see his brave and very personal contribution disparaged as 'pseudo-science.'

Perhaps TED would consider including members of our community on its advisory panel so as not to repeat the current misunderstanding and discord.

Respectfully,

Christopher Holvenstot
Independent Researcher
Editorial Advisor: The Journal of Consciousness Exploration and Research
Founding Member: The Society for Consciousness Studies

__________________________________________________________________


As a psychologist and professor who has spent years studying and teaching about consciousness at a public research university, I am alternately shocked and amused at the lengths people will travel to preserve an outmoded, materialist belief system in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I have colleagues who know nothing about the complexities of consciousness studies yet who, in their ignorance and arrogance, snidely condemn it as "pseudoscience", much as TED and its "anonymous" scientific advisory board have done. In response I have trained myself and my students to ask "What specific studies and data are you troubled by? What experimental procedures are you questioning? Have you read Thomas Kuhn's "Structure of a Scientific Revolution?" Invariably the answer is silence.

The kind of backlash exemplified by TED has occurred again and again since Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake in 1600 for proposing what astrophysicists now call "the multiple worlds theory", and it is always is at its most vociferous and vicious as a new way of thinking is emerging. But, as Thomas Kuhn reminds us, the old guard eventually and inevitably gives way to the new. I am currently teaching an upper-division undergraduate course entitled "Consciousness, Ethics, and the Natural World." Among other works that we are reading is Rupert Sheldrake's "Dogs that Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home." Yesterday I asked my students what they thought about TED's censuring of Sheldrake. Here are some of their thoughts:

"TED is starting to exclude the very minds that it was created to gather."
"TED is behaving in a very immature way....just like middle school cliques."
"TED has become a synonym for censure."
"To which special interests will TED bow before next"?
"The scientists who pressured TED into censuring Sheldrake are afraid that accepting his perspective invalidates their own work and that they'll be pushed aside. They don't realize that there's room for everyone in the Multiverse."

These are students at a mainstream research university for whom Sheldrake's ideas are common sense rather than "pseudoscience."" Clearly, this latest scientific revolution is upon us.

Kathleen D. Noble, Ph.D.
Professor of Consciousness
School of Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math
University of Washington - Bothell

________________________________________________________________________


In the TED reply they say:

"Nothing would excite us more than to include talks which offer a credible contribution to understanding [consciousness] better. Such talks could use the third person language of neuroscience, the first person language of experience or spirituality. We've carried plenty of each. We're hungry for more. "

Yet in their guidelines to their TEDx organizers regarding the "Red Flags" of "Pseudo-science" topics to watch out for they specifically list:

The neuroscience of [fill in the blank] -- not saying this will all be non-legitimate, but that it's a field where a lot of goofballs are right now
The fusion of science and spirituality. Be especially careful of anyone trying to prove the validity of their religious beliefs and practices by using science
"Goofballs" is a rather demeaning and judgmentally charged word. And aren't they contradicting themselves here? If they truly believe they are "hungry for more" credible talks on consciousness and are open to the neuroscience field, then perhaps they should change their guidelines letter to TEDx organizers and clarify these "red flags" more, and clean up their choice of words.

I've already made a contribution to the reply, but perhaps it might be worth pointing out TED's inconsistency in the overall group response somewhere.

I just want to take a moment to acknowledge this group. It is great to see such active collaboration and contributions from everyone. Such a united effort is what is needed to really get this field more on a level playing field with mainstream science, and it is rather fortunate timing that this TED debate is arising now to bring this topic more into the spotlight.

Cheers,

Theresa Bullard, Ph.D in Physics
______________________________________________________________________________

In a recent blog post by Deepak Chopra and colleagues about the TED debacle, they describe the "semi-censorship" employed by TEDx organizers. The organizers excluded some talks on grounds of "pseudoscience." The blog post mentions Rupert Sheldrake's talk called, The Science Delusion. They note how Sheldrake's talk did not have a "hint of bad science in it." I would like to expand on this paradox of the TED debacle.

I have used Sheldrake's books as textbooks in graduate and post-graduate teaching. His latest book, Science Set Free: Ten Paths to New Discovery poses important questions to science and the worldview of materialism. This is but one reason why the TED debacle is so fascinating and frustrating. TED is known for bringing the latest cutting edge ideas to our culture and they are censoring a cutting edge and scientific approach!

I was fortunate to interview Sheldrake earlier this month about the new book. A few important points from the interview will shed light on this paradox and hopefully inspire TED towards greater openness.
In our dialogue on April 2, 2013, Sheldrake explains the intent of his book; to offer scientifically testable experiments designed to question the dogmas associated with materialism. He notes that science as a method is wonderful. The problem arises when science becomes equated with the worldview of materialism. Since the late 19th century, materialism has dominated science.

The materialist worldview is a belief system based on ten core beliefs. Many people call this worldview science. The method of science and the worldview of materialism are actually two different things.
By turning these ten dogmas into questions that can be tested using scientific methods, Sheldrake offers a pragmatic approach. The dogmas are; nature is mechanical, matter is unconscious, the laws of nature are fixed and constant, the total amount of energy in the universe is always the same, nature is purposeless, biological inheritance is material, memories are stored in the head, consciousness is nothing but activity of the brain, psychic phenomenon are illusory, and only orthodox medicine truly works. My point here is not to recount the book but demonstrate the paradox at hand. Rather than ask people to do these experiments and verify whether these are actually beliefs that can be questions, TED has quashed them.
Sheldrake's latest Socratic approach asks us to separate the worldview of materialism from the method of science.

At the end of our interview, Sheldrake shared with me his hope for the book to start conversations. Perhaps this TED debacle has already done more to get this conversation going. Let's hope it doesn't take semi-censorship to do so in the future.

Sincerely,

Simon A. Senzon, MA, DC
Simon Senzon, MA, DC, is an independent scholar focused on the use of perspectives and the paradigm of reorganizational healing. His latest research grants are through the Global Gateway Foundation.

_______________________________________________________________________

'TED' Sparks Paradigm War
TED organizers have decided not to allow any TED or TEDx Talk that questions scientific dogma about the nature of mind or consciousness. The standard scientific story is that "obviously" mind is produced by the brain, and that all aspects of consciousness can be reduced to electrochemical events between neurons. Anyone who dares to suggest otherwise is obviously "woo-woo," a "fraud," or a "pseudoscientist."
Of course, nothing of the sort is "obvious" at all. No-one--no scientist, no philosopher, no self-appointed guardian of media "truth"--can even begin to explain how purely physical brain events could ever "squirt out" subjective experiences. In different ways, Rupert Sheldrake's and Graham Hancock's TED talks explored the idea that consciousness exists beyond the brain. The technical term for this is "nonlocal consciousness."
This is a metaphysical issue more than a scientific one. As long as science clings to methods rooted in sensory empiricism (the idea that only what can be detected and measured by the senses counts as "real"), we will never have a science of consciousness. Neither neuroscience nor cognitive science study consciousness per se. As I and others have pointed out, studying the neural correlates of consciousness is not at all the same as studying consciousness.
Aesthetics and Metaphysics
Underlying the scientific paradigm wars lie deeper (often unconscious) metaphysical differences.
Over the years, I've come to realize that no amount of argument, no matter how coherent or robust, is likely to ever change someone's basic metaphysical beliefs (more so, when their livelihoods depend on defending those beliefs). It seems we adhere to a set of metaphysical assumptions not because of either scientific "evidence" or philosophical "argument," but because of some deeply unconscious emotional or aesthetic preference!
Those preferences exist mostly as feelings (hence "aesthetic"), and, without deep, intentional, self-reflection, they hardly ever rise to the level of clear cognition or adequate language to express them. For the most part, we just don't know why we prefer one set of metaphysical beliefs over some other.
It takes work--honest, intellectually and emotionally courageous work--to question ourselves at such deep existential levels. This is precisely where great philosophy and spiritual practice meet. (Imagine having this discussion with a Dawkins, a Dennett, or a TED administrator!).
Given this, then nothing anyone might say in response to TED's intellectual myopia is likely to make a significant difference. Nevertheless, unless we stand up for our right to be included in the dialogue about the nature of consciousness (and the broader topic of the nature of reality), we implicitly support the entrenchment of the dominant paradigm that shuts us out.
Therefore, I add my voice to the chorus of people speaking out against (or about) the TED debacle. Ask yourself: "Do I want a truly open and free exchange of ideas--or do I want to support what amounts to a modern-day, scientific version of the Inquisition?"
A longer version of this article "TED Sparks Paradigm War" is available at my website: www.christiandequincey.com

Christian de Quincey, Ph.D.
Professor of Philosophy and Consciousness Studies,
John F. Kennedy University
______________________________________________________________________________

My response to TED's response:

TED asks, "Imagine a speaker arguing, say, that eating five Big Macs a day could prevent Alzheimer's," as an example where a science board would feel justified in excluding that topic as a TEDx talk. The claim flies in the face of common sense so no further examination is necessary. Right?

But what if there were scientifically valid experiments published in mainstream, peer-reviewed journals that supported the apparently outrageous assertion? What if the experiments were repeatable and observed in independent laboratories over decades? What if the underlying phenomena were reported outside the laboratory throughout recorded history, and across all cultures, and by a broad range of university scientists and scholars? Would that topic, however challenging it may seem, still be excluded from TED? How many credible challenges are required before the balance tips between knee-jerk exclusion of bold and risky ideas vs. timid and safe pabulum?

This is exactly the situation for a class of consciousness-related phenomena. They are labeled telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition and psychokinesis. These phenomena do challenge naive assumptions about the relationship between mind and matter, but there is no rational justification for continuing to exclude this line of research if TED is really interested in promoting genuine science. Empiricism must trump theory, otherwise it's no longer science that's being defended. It's dogma.

Best wishes,

Dean Radin PhD
Co-Editor-in-Chief, Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing

Chief Scientist
Institute of Noetic Sciences
625 Second St., Suite 200
Petaluma, CA 94952 USA

Adjunct Faculty, Department of Psychology, Sonoma State University

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____________________________________________________________________

The Society for Consciousness Studies Statement:

The Society for Consciousness Studies is disappointed with the recent policy of exclusion by the TED TALKS organizers, who have taken it upon themselves to classify several well-known scholars and researchers as "pseudo-scientists" and have removed them from TED TALKS. It is our view as an organization of professional scholars and scientists that such a policy amounts to a latter day McCarthyism in which a few influential individuals have taken it upon themselves to decide which ideas and facts are suitable for all of us.

The Society for Consciousness Studies is a strong advocate for freedom to express research findings and scholarly ideas without seeking approval from purveyors of unwritten biases or worldviews, or from the self-appointed keepers of conservative intellectual culture.

Allan Leslie Combs, Ph.D.
Doshi Professor of Consciousness Studies; CIIS
Director: Center for Consciousness Studies, CIIS
President: The Society for Consciousness Studies

___________________________________________________________________

What happened to the scientific process in your decision making as to who is qualified to present at a TED or TEDx conference? I learned in high school that theories have to tested over and over again, and that nothing was sacred. Our basic assumptions are sometimes proved incorrect. This has happened countless times in our history. We "knew" that the Earth was the center of Universe and that everything revolved around us. We "knew" that the atom was the smallest possible mass. We "knew" that the universe was slowing down and ultimately would collapse upon itself.
Only the most scientifically arrogant would say that we know everything about a subject and that therefore any inquiry into it could not possibly be "good" science. It is YOU who have besmirched the previously good name of TED and TEDX.

Kenneth Garen, President Universal Business Computing Company, Marquis Who's Who in the World (2008-2013) and Marquis Who's Who in Science and Technology (2008-2013)

___________________________________________________________________

I have gone through the lecture of Rupert Sheldrake that is withdrawn by TED and available in YouTube. I am protesting this decision of TED as I feel that TED movement is one of the historic events in the human civilization and it is contradictory to the fundamental establishment philosophy of TED to stop the voice that extremely politely seeks the re-evaluation of the morality of the scientific practice. When majority of the scientific principles are assumed ad hoc, only to fit the experimental results with the "hand in tools", arguing to change the way we look at the practice is not a sin. However, in contrast, trying to stop that voice is unscientific and does not match with the very foundation of science, which stepped ahead only because we made it liberal. The historic TED act to me is in no way different than those who gave poison to Socrates or burnt Bruno alive, if decision makers in the TED think that they understand Science then they should dare to answer the open question put forth by Rupert Sheldrake.

We have universal constants, if there is a change even at the eighth decimal, the world will be re-designed completely, who wrote that, and how, and what are the factors contribute to that change? We have a five hundred years old science, still we cannot solve a three body problem, two balls are fine, not three or more, isn't the science we practice is primitive? We all know what games scientists play in quantum chromodynamics to fit the result, patterns have no explanation, magic numbers no explanation, lists are many, but if somebody argues to destroy the blind religious faiths of the scientists, he is non-scientific? I do not understand, on one hand we have experimental proof that two quantum mechanically entangled particles communicate with 100000 times the velocity of light, and on the other hand we have faith that nothing can move faster than the velocity of light. Hand waving arguments that is classical, this is quantum will not save us for long. We all know that for Nature, there is no classical or quantum it is a division created by us.

These ridiculous scenarios of science will give birth to a new kind of science, Rupert Sheldrake has started to ask and many people will join him. Whether TED gives him a platform or not, the truth will come out and the days for the existing science is numbered, it will change. The coin is tossed; and therefore, it is better for TED not to indulge in shameful acts and then later prove itself as the "Scientific Church" that validates the religion of "Scientific Mafias."

Best Regards
Anirban Bandyopadhyay
Senior Scientist, National Institute for Materials Science, Japan
_________________________________________________________________________

Some of the ideas expressed by Rupert Sheldrake may look like pseudoscience indeed, as the talk has some marks of bad science, as described by TED organizers.

For me, the talk looks like a skeptical approach to the actual methodology of science. This raises an important issue: is TED a proper stage for out of the box ideas, or new hypotheses in science? Why does the vision of Rupert Sheldrake have less value than the story of Thandie Newton?

Ovidiu Brazdau, PhD
Research Director, Consciousness Quotient Institute

_______________________________________________________________________


Since the Scientific Revolution, when empirical discoveries began to undermine religious doctrine, tension grew between those who sought truth through rational inquiry based on observation and those who accepted truths based on the authority of religious dogma. While the liberation of science from religion resulted in tremendous advances in science and technology, it also led to the fragmentation of knowledge and to a science no longer engaged with the big questions: what it means to be human, to be conscious, to be a seeker of meaning amid the vagaries of life.

We believe the time has come for the fragmentation of knowledge we have seen over the last four hundred years to give way to a new paradigm in which science and spirituality reenter into a meaningful dialogue with one another. Spirituality need not be at odds with scientific inquiry -- a new kind of integration is possible. What is required for this reintegration is an empirically-responsible spirituality, one that is not beholden to dogma or authority, and a more humanistic non-dogmatic science willing to consider the big questions of life. We would only expect that forward thinking organization such as TED would support and advance this dialogue.

Zaya & Maurizio Benazzo
Founders, Science and Nonduality Conference

_______________________________________________________________________

In the TEDx letter, bad science is given this trademark, among others: "It does not fly in the face of the broad existing body of scientific knowledge." I ask, what science that revolutionizes our understanding of the world around us, does NOT fly in the face of existing knowledge? In fact, the hallmarks of great advances are those that are considered heresy. Galileo and Leo Szilard come to mind. Both of their realizations could be considered radical at the time of discovery, and for Galileo, clearly unjustly. Both advances eventually became provable. Something being not yet provable invalidates neither the hypothesis, nor its initial conceptual acceptance by a particular scientist. Even much of Einstein's work took decades to measure, much less duplicate, as scientific modalities were not yet available.

Another comment I take issue with is for organizers 'to avoid the fusion of science and spirituality'. Do those two things not make up human existence? Aren't those two sides of OUR coin? These are the things we struggle to understand on a daily basis, each of us individually, and oftentimes in groups. Some people restrict themselves to only one side of that coin; that is their right. But to develop a greater understanding of ALL things that encompass our experience can also be gone about scientifically. Certainly DO ask questions of your speakers; certainly DO check their credentials, and motivations. But to dismiss talks that question how science goes about its business is the scientific analogy to being unpatriotic. Let us question our driving principals at their core; let speakers that pass the other smell tests provide a venue to discuss consciousness.

Elissa Lynn, Masters degree, Atmospheric Sciences
Broadcaster, Scientist, State of California
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:27 pm

How in the fuck did atheistic materialism become its own religion with its own own high priests clamoring to burn each and every heretic at the stake?

Does atheism even make sense to anyone? How can any materialist say anything certain about what is materialistically unknowable?
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby DrEvil » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:07 pm

stickdog99 wrote:How in the fuck did atheistic materialism become its own religion with its own own high priests clamoring to burn each and every heretic at the stake?

Does atheism even make sense to anyone? How can any materialist say anything certain about what is materialistically unknowable?


How do you know that it is materialistically unknowable?
Not knowing != unknowable.

Atheism makes perfect sense to me. Religion has been around "forever", but it has yet to prove (in the scientific, or any other tangible sense) any of its claims. There is no evidence to support the existence of God whatsoever.
That means that, in order to believe in God, you have to take it on faith. You have to make a conscious decision to believe something that you can't possibly hope to ever prove in any meaningful way.

I get why people are religious, but I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the how. How can any reasonable person, with open eyes, choose to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary?
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby brekin » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:22 pm

Dr. Evil wrote:

Atheism makes perfect sense to me. Religion has been around "forever", but it has yet to prove (in the scientific, or any other tangible sense) any of its claims. There is no evidence to support the existence of God whatsoever.
That means that, in order to believe in God, you have to take it on faith. You have to make a conscious decision to believe something that you can't possibly hope to ever prove in any meaningful way.


Damn it man, open thine eyes!

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I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby Canadian_watcher » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:25 pm

DrEvil wrote:I get why people are religious, but I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the how. How can any reasonable person, with open eyes, choose to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary?


I don't know about 'religion' but it you'll allow me to go ahead and give an answer with regards to why people have spiritual faith, then here it is:

It is a gift as in - it is an ability/talent and some people are savants, perhaps, and some have to work harder at it. It is a quest for understanding that some people want to explore and perfect.

There is no scientific proof whatsoever of any talent, if you want to look at it that way and yet day after day after day people pursue beauty via means such as song, sculpture, architecture and even science itself. Hacks who try and surround and usurp those talents are abundant and right now, I observe, the hacks have taken over.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby Canadian_watcher » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:06 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
yathrib wrote:Responding to original post: TED is just like Youtube, etc. in that it acts when enough complaints are made. It's all political. That being said, I really object to Grahams bashing of "materialistic science." What other science is there? Science is study of the physical world. And what is there outside of the physical world? Everything that exists must have some kind of material substance, however uncanny to our everyday perception of reality. So the material/spiritual divide is a nonstarter IMO, unless you want to say nonmaterial science is the study of things that don't exist.


Not having had time to listen to Graham, I'm going to agree on your more general point: attacks on "materialism" as a philosophical category are non-sensical. Everything's material, or (in the quantum view) potential material, or else it doesn't exist. Material vs. spiritual is a false dichotomy, they're not even describing the same class of entity. People commonly refer to things that may exist as beyond the material world, but they would not be. They are beyond our knowledge, or beyond our perceptions of what is real.


I'm interested in the part I bolded, above.
Is it a false dichotomy? What about when the potential material exhibits behaviours that no material exhibits, what to do with those findings? (eg a single atom being observed to be in two places at the same time)
And how would one classify the search for the origin of ideas or inspiration? Is that a material pursuit? What if the findings suggest that ideas don't originate in the brain, for example?
Love or belief in something itself. are those material phenomena? Can they be quantified objectively? If not, then they must be quantified subjectively, and what makes one subject different from another subject in their perceptions?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby Canadian_watcher » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:07 pm

did anyone post this?

Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby DrEvil » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:52 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
DrEvil wrote:I get why people are religious, but I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the how. How can any reasonable person, with open eyes, choose to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary?


I don't know about 'religion' but it you'll allow me to go ahead and give an answer with regards to why people have spiritual faith, then here it is:

It is a gift as in - it is an ability/talent and some people are savants, perhaps, and some have to work harder at it. It is a quest for understanding that some people want to explore and perfect.

There is no scientific proof whatsoever of any talent, if you want to look at it that way and yet day after day after day people pursue beauty via means such as song, sculpture, architecture and even science itself. Hacks who try and surround and usurp those talents are abundant and right now, I observe, the hacks have taken over.


Beautifully put, and very true. I'm not discounting spiritual experiences, I'm just not ascribing them to any actual spiritual plane of existence. Ultimately it boils down to signals and chemical reactions in our brains. Stick a magnet in someone's head and you can literally make them feel the presence of God. Doesn't mean s/he really is there.

And yes, I know that sounds horribly cold and materialistic and whatnot, but I really don't see it that way. I think it's beautiful - that something that, if you look closely enough, is so simple, can give rise to such complex forms as us, and all the music, art and, well, spiritual experiences that come with that.
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby Canadian_watcher » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:01 pm

DrEvil wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
DrEvil wrote:I get why people are religious, but I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the how. How can any reasonable person, with open eyes, choose to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary?


I don't know about 'religion' but it you'll allow me to go ahead and give an answer with regards to why people have spiritual faith, then here it is:

It is a gift as in - it is an ability/talent and some people are savants, perhaps, and some have to work harder at it. It is a quest for understanding that some people want to explore and perfect.

There is no scientific proof whatsoever of any talent, if you want to look at it that way and yet day after day after day people pursue beauty via means such as song, sculpture, architecture and even science itself. Hacks who try and surround and usurp those talents are abundant and right now, I observe, the hacks have taken over.


Beautifully put, and very true. I'm not discounting spiritual experiences, I'm just not ascribing them to any actual spiritual plane of existence. Ultimately it boils down to signals and chemical reactions in our brains. Stick a magnet in someone's head and you can literally make them feel the presence of God. Doesn't mean s/he really is there.

And yes, I know that sounds horribly cold and materialistic and whatnot, but I really don't see it that way. I think it's beautiful - that something that, if you look closely enough, is so simple, can give rise to such complex forms as us, and all the music, art and, well, spiritual experiences that come with that.


thank you for this reply, Dr. E.

I've thought about that a lot, and I have found that I can't discern the reality of the situation - What comes first?
You can stick a magnet in someone's head and make them smell burning toast, but that doesn't mean that they can't' also and separately have an authentic experience with blackened bread. To me those 'forced reaction' experiments could be science imitating life. After all, burnt toast really exists, otherwise how would scientists reproduce the experience of it?
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby 82_28 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:52 pm

stickdog99 wrote:How in the fuck did atheistic materialism become its own religion with its own own high priests clamoring to burn each and every heretic at the stake?

Does atheism even make sense to anyone? How can any materialist say anything certain about what is materialistically unknowable?

The Cloud of Unknowing (Middle English: The Cloude of Unknowyng) is an anonymous work of Christian mysticism written in Middle English in the latter half of the 14th century. The text is a spiritual guide on contemplative prayer in the late Middle Ages. The underlying message of this work proposes that the only way to truly "know" God is to abandon all preconceived notions and beliefs or “knowledge” about God and be courageous enough to surrender your mind and ego to the realm of "unknowingness," at which point, you begin to glimpse the true nature of God.

Manuscripts of the work are today at British Library and Cambridge University Library.[1][2]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cloud_of_Unknowing

I for one was hardcore atheist for a long time and was active at events and stuff back in my early 20s. I've since renounced this label as for myself and consider myself gnostic. Too many "spiritual" events have happened for me to say "I know". But that old retort of "so, you're agnostic then?" doesn't work because I only know what I don't know. People take too many liberties in what they are sure of, when in fact what they don't know is in fact, what they do know. This is why I do know that I hate strict materialism and also any religion that espouses authority as that also takes on a material nature.

What's funny is that my name given to me over at myself, Tim, eleleth and Garrett Mr. Hollowearthradio's site is "TED TALKS ARE DEAD TO ME". Apparently that's what I'm posting under and I like it.

This ain't no ad for the site, but I guess it is ultimately. Our site is www.earlyclues.com. Apparently while I was working this weekend the other guys came up with some plan to summon "Angel Investors". I need to look into this, because I don't know what it means. I know what it means, but don't.

Ultimately, what we are doing is calling bullshit by being something that appears TO WANT to pull the wool over your eyes. We're just going about it in the reverse way. I guess pulling the wool over "their" eyes. Apparently also we are working on downloadable "spiritual apps" for your smartphones. We've got a huge repository so far of shit we wanna work on as well.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby Simulist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:10 pm

DrEvil wrote:Atheism makes perfect sense to me.

Atheism makes perfect sense to me, too — but it also can work out to be reductionistic. Although I do not worship any god or gods, I'm uncomfortable applying the term, "atheist," to myself simply because I think that word tends to give people the wrong impression about what my point of view might be: namely, that I'd probably accept only those things as "real" which can be scientifically proven and are measurable in some way. But from my point of view, that would be the perspective of a reductionist — and some of my most important human experiences have concerned things that simply cannot be measured, quantified, or proven.

I love my husband, for just one example, but for twenty-two years now I've been completely unable to "prove" that love in any scientifically conclusive fashion. A skeptic might rightly point out to me that there may be numerous other explanations for the measurable behaviors that I'm assigning as "love." But I still love the guy — despite this reasonable skepticism to the contrary.

Similarly, for almost thirty-three years (Since December 1980) I've had — and continue to have, at least daily — a powerful, tactile experience of "god," which is overwhelming at times. (I put the word, god, in quotation marks because, as I've already stated, I no longer believe in any god or gods, even though I do experience an intelligent, Unnameable Something that my intellect is completely incapable of comprehending fully — and even more lame when I try to describe it in words. Prose is inadequate. This may be one reason humans require things like poetry and art: Truth is greater than the sum of its parts.)

In fact, it was this ongoing experience — far more than any other single "thing" — that led me right out the door of organized religion. Comparing a genuine spiritual experience with the codified doctrines of any organized religion is a little like comparing a fine work of art with a cartoon. There simply is no comparison! — and when people try to make one, it gets a little embarrassing.

Image Image

So I guess that's why I'm not religious, but I'm not an atheist either: it's not at all about "belief," it's really about human experience.



[Edited to correct subject/verb agreement.]
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:19 pm

LOL at atheists proclaiming that the absence of evidence of God or spirituality or anything at all means that it does not and cannot possibly exist.

Science doesn't know shit about shit. From what happened before the Big Bang to what happens at scales below the quantum level, science is necessarily constrained by the limits of our sense perceptions and bound to a principle of empiricism Hume proved completely bankrupt hundreds of years ago.

But if you want to believe that nothing science cannot measure can possibly exist, that reality itself is necessarily defined by what is scientifically observable, then who I am to question your fervent faith in your personal revelation?
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:55 pm

DrEvil wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:How in the fuck did atheistic materialism become its own religion with its own own high priests clamoring to burn each and every heretic at the stake?

Does atheism even make sense to anyone? How can any materialist say anything certain about what is materialistically unknowable?


How do you know that it is materialistically unknowable?
Not knowing != unknowable.

Atheism makes perfect sense to me. Religion has been around "forever", but it has yet to prove (in the scientific, or any other tangible sense) any of its claims. There is no evidence to support the existence of God whatsoever.
That means that, in order to believe in God, you have to take it on faith. You have to make a conscious decision to believe something that you can't possibly hope to ever prove in any meaningful way.

I get why people are religious, but I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the how. How can any reasonable person, with open eyes, choose to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary?


But while there is no evidence to prove the existence of God (tho some people might claim personal experience is all the evidence that is needed), there is no evidence god doesn't exist either. So how can there be evidence to the contrary? Lack of evidence is not evidence in and of itself. Its just a lack of evidence.

In fact some studies and some pretty simple mental gymnastics or speculation may leave room for the existence of god within the current scientific understanding of the world.
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Re: TED Deletes Talks by Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock

Postby DrEvil » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:59 pm

LOL at atheists proclaiming that the absence of evidence of God or spirituality or anything at all means that it does not and cannot possibly exist.


No. I'm assuming God doesn't exist because there are no indications, whatsoever, to convince me otherwise. Not saying God can't possibly exist, only that I find it very unlikely.
Technically I'm agnostic since I can't prove God doesn't exist, but I'm sick of being derided as a poor-mans atheist. :)

Science doesn't know shit about shit. From what happened before the Big Bang to what happens at scales below the quantum level, science is necessarily constrained by the limits of our sense perceptions and bound to a principle of empiricism Hume proved completely bankrupt hundreds of years ago.


Right. That's why we still live in the middle ages driving around in horse-carts with a life expectancy of around 35-40 years. Oh, wait..
Seriously? It shouldn't even be necessary to point out that we wouldn't be having this discussion without science.
And science isn't "necessarily constrained" by the limits of our perceptions. It helps us go beyond them. The Hubble telescope, electron microscopes, nanotechnology and materials science, not to mention much of modern medicine, plus chemistry and computers.

But if you want to believe that nothing science cannot measure can possibly exist, that reality itself is necessarily defined by what is scientifically observable, then who I am to question your fervent faith in your personal revelation?


Again, I'm not saying it can't possibly exist, only that if we can't measure it, then for all intents and purposes it doesn't. If we could interact with "it" in any way, we would be able to measure "its" influence (or we wouldn't be interacting). We can't, and the standard model sure as heck doesn't predict any "divine" order of particles.

Are there fundamental aspects of nature we have no clue about? Of course! That's why scientists exist in the first place. If we knew everything we wouldn't need them.

It's not a matter of faith, or lack thereof. It's a matter of finding things more or less likely.
To help me determine what is the more likely answer, I go read up on what the experts say. If they all agree, I can be reasonably sure that they are right, and I adjust my "beliefs" accordingly.
If they don't agree, then I can't really make any hard decision either way, and I leave it on the back burner as one of many possibles (The various interpretations of quantum mechanics, as one example).
But again: Not knowing does not equal unknowable.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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