Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby DrEvil » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:03 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:To anyone losing patience with this often bizarrely pointmissing (or point-avoiding) marathon thread, please read the mainstream news articles posted and linked to by stickdog99 on pp. 100-102. (The alleged interview with Anonymous "Danny", the allegedly carjacked driver, deserves some kind of a prize. It really does read like an unusually clumsy satire, but no, we're apparently expected to take it seriously. Maybe they're really testing the limits of how much bullshit people will swallow and still call caviare.)


So, Danny is what exactly? A crisis actor? A CIA plant? Chinese intelligence?

Summary: Practically every single significant detail of of the entire "official story" -- fed to the world for over a week by "anonymous law enforcement sources" via the NYT and the rest of the mass media -- turns out to be one of two things:

1) an outrageous (and outrageously detailed) lie


The "anonymous law enforcement sources" don't really have much choice do they (assuming they're actually who they say they are)? It's an ongoing investigation. Leaking to the press is a good way to get fired.

And could you elaborate on the "outrageously detailed" pack of outrageous lies?
I see lots of confusion, hyperbole and speculation, but that's not exactly uncommon for the media. More like the norm.

or

2) an entirely unverifiable set of deeply self-incriminating alleged statements allegedly made by an allegedly wounded-and-speechless 20-year-old youth who might as well be in Guantanamo Bay to the fucking FBI & CIA, who have (see 1) lied shamelessly about practically everything else.

So why believe anything they say now?


What would satisfy you in regards to verification? You personally getting to interrogate him? Or should they tape everything and put it on youtube? Or maybe make him do an "Ask Me Anything" on reddit?
And so what if the statements are self-incriminatory? It wouldn't be the first time someone admitted to a crime, and probably won't be the last. Unless you know this guy in person and know for a fact that he would never do that, which I'm assuming you don't.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby DrEvil » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:10 pm

Sounder wrote:Hmmmm… !0 yards away and not a scratch. Yeah, that’s not odd at all, certainly not suggestive of fakery.


Could be as simple as a fat guy being in the way. One of the reasons that more people didn't die probably was because of the crowd. The ones closest got it good, but shielded those further back, and sometimes people are just lucky.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:12 pm

Dr. Evil, your response is irrational, a distraction, and a waste of time, like far too much of this thread. Enough, really, it's unconscionable. The point I am making is elementary and should be blatantly obvious to anyone reading in good faith, and I made it perfectly clearly. I am not going to repeat it.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:13 pm

8bitagent wrote:
happenstance wrote:First interview with the carjacked man.

- "Danny tried to send telepathic messages to the officers inside"

- "Girls, credit limits for students, the marvels of the Mercedes ML 350 and the iPhone 5, whether anyone still listens to CDs -- all were discussed by the two 26-year-olds and the 19-year-old driving around on a Thursday night."

http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/04 ... story.html


Maybe Im naive and a sucker, but I can buy pretty much the gist of what "Danny" has told the media and investigators.


That's no wonder since it was written by the dude who wrote The Will to Kill: Making Sense of Senseless Murder.

Look, it's not that the story as fully stated in its 5th contradictory incarnation complete with "Tarrantino details" is so inherently unbelievable. It's that it is so fucking convenient and necessary to THE BROTHERS DID IT, ASK NO FURTHER QUESTIONS EXCEPT WHETHER TO USE EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION narrative. The reason you don't see that is because you have been convinced the brothers were involved from the start because that fits your view of how events like this typically transpire.

But just suppose just for a minute that the brothers were nothing but Plan D patsies of interest who just happened to be spotted by security cameras in the wrong place and wrong time wearing the wrong colored backpacks.

Who first described their confession, to both the senseless bombing and the senseless execution? Danny Boy, only to have it later "confirmed" by the mute suspect via unnamed FBI sources.

Who first described their motive for both the senseless bombing and the senseless execution? Danny Boy, only to have it later "confirmed" by the mute suspect via unnamed FBI sources.

Who first described their imminent plans for further attacks, clearly justifying the extreme show of force used to locate a single, slight, injured, unarmed teenager? Danny Boy, only to have it later "confirmed" by the mute suspect via unnamed FBI sources.

Who chaperoned Danny Boy's two and a half hour interview that makes sense of their senseless murders? The guy who literally wrote the book The Will to Kill: Making Sense of Senseless Murder.

Imagine what the columnists' headlines would read without Danny Boy's story. WHY DID HE DO IT? WHAT TURNED A NORMAL, EVERYDAY KID INTO A MAD BOMBER?
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:17 pm

Thanks, stickdog.

Hollywood has a lot to answer for.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:23 pm

APRIL 25, 2013
WHAT IF THE TSARNAEVS HAD BEEN THE “BOSTON SHOOTERS”?
POSTED BY JOHN CASSIDY

Here’s a little mental experiment. Imagine, for a moment, that the Tsarnaev brothers, instead of packing a couple of pressure cookers loaded with nails and explosives into their backpacks a week ago Monday, had stuffed inside their coats two assault rifles—Bushmaster AR-15s, say, of the type that Adam Lanza used in Newtown. What would have been different?

Well, for one thing, the brothers would probably have killed a lot more than three people at the marathon. AR-15s can fire up to forty-five rounds a minute, and at close range they can tear apart a human body. If the Tsarnaevs had started firing near the finish line, they might easily have killed dozens of spectators and runners before fleeing or being shot by the police.

The second thing that would have been different is the initial public reaction. Most Americans associate bomb attacks with terrorists. When they hear of mass shootings, they tend to think of sociopaths and unbalanced post-adolescents. If the Tsarnaevs had managed to carry out a gun massacre unharmed and escaped, their identities unknown, would the first presumption have been that the shooters were Islamic extremists? Or would people have looked in another direction?

Third, had the attack been carried out with assault rifles rather than explosives and nails, the gun-control bills that perished on Capitol Hill just two days after the Boston bombings may have met a different fate. After yet another gun massacre, this one on the streets of Boston, it’s hard to imagine the White House wouldn’t have been able to summon up sixty votes in the Senate for expanded background checks. The proposed ban on assault weapons would surely have gotten the support of more than forty senators, too, and the proposal to ban multi-round magazines would also have gained more support—that’s if the gun lobby hadn’t managed to postpone the votes until emotions had cooled, which it would certainly have tried to do.

Finally, there’s the question of what would have happened to the Tsarnaevs after they had been caught—that’s assuming one or both of them had survived the attack. Just for the sake of argument, let’s say things had developed pretty much as they did, with Tamerlan, the elder brother, being killed, and Dzhokhar, the younger brother, being wounded and captured. Would the government have charged him with conspiring to use “weapons of mass destruction,” a count that could lead to the death penalty? And if they had done this, what would it have meant for the future of assault weapons? Once they’d been classified as W.M.D.s, would that have not made a difference to the public debate about how freely available they should be?

Yes, this is only a counterfactual exercise, which, like all such riffs, shouldn’t be taken too literally. But it’s hard to think about it for long without coming to the conclusion that there’s something askew with the way we think about and react to various types of extreme violence, and the weapons used in such episodes. In a country where each life (and death) is supposed to count equally, surely the victims of gun violence should be accorded the same weight as the victims of bomb violence. And the perpetrators should get equal treatment, too. But, of course, that’s not how things work.

Let me make clear that I am not trying to equate, in any moral or legal sense, mass shootings that result from personal vendettas or psychological pathologies with acts of terrorism carried out for political purposes. Nor am I suggesting that the Tsarnaevs can’t be classed as terrorists. From what has appeared in the media, it appears that Tamerlan had been frequenting radical Islamist Web sites, which promote conspiracy theories about 9/11 and violence against the West. (The motivations of Dzhokhar, whose main passion at U. Mass appears to have been pot, remain murkier.)

My point is about perceptions and reality, and how the former can shape the latter. The Tsarnaevs did have at least one gun—evidently a pistol, rather than the mini-arsenal originally reported—which they apparently used to kill an M.I.T. police officer, but that wasn’t what kept an entire city locked indoors: it was the fact that there were “terrorists,” who had carried out a bombing, on the loose. As I pointed out the other day, numerically speaking, terrorism, especially homegrown terrorism, is a minor threat to public safety and public health. It pales in comparison to gun violence.

Set off in a public space a couple of crude, homemade bombs that you appear to have made using a recipe on the Web, and the state will make you Public Enemy Number One. To ensure you are caught and punished, there are virtually no lengths to which the authorities won’t go. They’ll assemble a multi-agency task force overnight, calling on some of the enormous investments in hardware, intelligence, and manpower that have been made since 9/11. They’ll haul in anybody who might be remotely connected to the crime scene, and, if necessary, shut down an entire city. Once you’re caught, they’ll interview you in your hospital bed without reading you your legal rights and then charge you with using W.M.D.s. If you weren’t born in this country, there will even be talk about changing the immigration laws.

If you systematically shoot a classroom full of defenseless six-year-olds and blow off your own head, things proceed rather differently. To be sure, you, or your memory, will be hated and vilified. But the political system, in hock to the N.R.A., will classify you as a nut whose deadly actions have few or no policy implications. (With the demise of the gun-control legislation, that’s what it did with Adam Lanza.) Life and politics will go on as normal. The President will probably visit the scene of your outrage and say consoling things to the families of your victims. He’ll mean what he says, but he won’t be able to do much about it, and nobody will ask why the F.B.I. or the C.I.A. didn’t realize you were such a menace to society and lock you up preëmptively. Crazed shooters, after all, are something we’ve grown used to.

Because we have become inured to deaths from shootings, and because of the association of guns and liberty in the minds of many Americans—an association assiduously promoted by the gun lobby—the political system no longer responds to gun deaths. Terrorist acts, on the other hand, even ones masterminded by Mutt and Jeff from Cambridge rather than Osama and K.S.M. from Tora Bora, still have the power to spook the nation and swing the entire U.S. government into action.

Which is what got me thinking in the first place about what would have happened if the Tsarnaevs had been shooters rather than bombers. Maybe I am wrong about how things would have played out. But the country, or large parts of it, would finally have been forced to confront its cognitive dissonance about gun violence and terrorism, which, at the very least, would have been educational.

As it is now, the law-enforcement agencies are patting themselves on the back; Tsarnaev is headed for court; and in Washington the policy debates look set to continue along their well-established and ossified tracks. Meanwhile, the rest of the world looks on in astonishment at a country that so vigorously confronts one source of death and destruction while turning its back on another.

Note: In the original post, I wrote that the semi-automatic AR-15 was capable of firing forty-five rounds a second, which is obviously wrong. I meant to say that it was capable of firing forty-five rounds a minute. Sorry for the error, which I’ve corrected.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:24 pm

DrEvil wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:To anyone losing patience with this often bizarrely pointmissing (or point-avoiding) marathon thread, please read the mainstream news articles posted and linked to by stickdog99 on pp. 100-102. (The alleged interview with Anonymous "Danny", the allegedly carjacked driver, deserves some kind of a prize. It really does read like an unusually clumsy satire, but no, we're apparently expected to take it seriously. Maybe they're really testing the limits of how much bullshit people will swallow and still call caviare.)


So, Danny is what exactly? A crisis actor? A CIA plant? Chinese intelligence?


A now very well coached story teller, telling the critically important story, the one that removed any question of the brothers' innocence from our minds. Why should we believe the photographic evidence of Craft hat guys with backpacks when DANNY BOY'S Pulp Fiction so clearly matches our Hollywood trained sensibilities?

One anonymous story, and like that, poof. All our doubts are gone.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby barracuda » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:42 pm

stickdog99 wrote:First they came for the Muslim, and I didn't speak out because they made made me feel safe and after all they just looked like an occupying force and had always been just as militarized and the things they were riding around in just looked like tanks.

Business as usual. No reason whatsoever for concern. To have a visceral negative response to such a show of force is to be harmfully alarmist, and every expressed subjective fear to such a show of force must be fully met with a lengthy, maximum strength, point by point gainsaying response to each and every quoted thoughtcrime.


Not to belabor you with a point-by-point gainsay, but don't you think that perhaps the impressions we're getting of the police response in Watertown feed the emotional needs of people in this conspiracy milieu with regards to their suspicions about the probable onset of widespread martial law in response to aspects of social collapse, etc.? With a bit of fiddling, it fits lots of preconceptions we have about the world to come. And isn't it sort of late in the day to be expressing surprise at the extreme militarization of the police, seeing as how we've been carefully watching the buildup of this type of force across the country for years now? You live in a militarized state. You know this.

I guess I don't see why it's so hard for people to discriminate between martial law and a militarized police response to a bombing. Because while they may exist on a spectrum of totalitarianism, they certainly have very different practical aspects about them, which have been rather clearly pointed out. Primarily those differences revolve around whether or not the civil liberties of the residents of Watertown were infringed upon. It increasingly appears they may not have been. As well as whether civilian governmental agency was coopted by the military. Which no one here seems to think occurred.

But of course the aesthetics of the moment provide most of the emotional gestalt here. I don't find concerns regarding martial law to be particularly alarmist. They've been surfacing for years now FEMA CAMPS while the gradual militarization of the domestic LE proceeds apace right in front of your eyes, day to day. It's only when the fully camoed, armed and vested cops ride down your street in a jet-black armored hummer that the reality of you position becomes artfully apparent. I mean, I've always felt that appearances are a significant part of the fascist program, for sure.

Damn it - I think I just belabored you with a point-by-point gainsay response to your each and every quoted thoughtcrime! Honestly, it just turned out that way. Anyway... my fav theory as of this morning is that the Tsarnaevs were part of a "drill gone live" program.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:52 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:To anyone losing patience with this often bizarrely pointmissing (or point-avoiding) marathon thread, please read the mainstream news articles posted and linked to by stickdog99 on pp. 100-102. (The alleged interview with Anonymous "Danny", the allegedly carjacked driver, deserves some kind of a prize. It really does read like an unusually clumsy satire, but no, we're apparently expected to take it seriously. Maybe they're really testing the limits of how much bullshit people will swallow and still call caviare.)


Do I get the prize, then, since I posted it first?

Summary: Practically every single significant detail of of the entire "official story" -- fed to the world for over a week by "anonymous law enforcement sources" via the NYT and the rest of the mass media -- turns out to be one of two things:

1) an outrageous (and outrageously detailed) lie

or

2) an entirely unverifiable set of deeply self-incriminating alleged statements allegedly made by an allegedly wounded-and-speechless 20-year-old youth who might as well be in Guantanamo Bay to the fucking FBI & CIA, who have (see 1) lied shamelessly about practically everything else.

So why believe anything they say now?

The only honourable and remotely rational approach to this case is now, at the very latest, to reject anything and everything told to us by any official sources unless and until they provide incontrovertible and verifiable evidence to back it up. Not only is that only common sense, it's only common decency.

Dzokhar Tsernaev is innocent until proven guilty. Right? In other words, Dzokhar Tsernaev is innocent, as is his dead brother.


Reject might be a little too far. Extremely doubt, intensely inspect, etc. would be better.

But, yeah, pretty much. Agreed.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby FourthBase » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:01 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
8bitagent wrote:
happenstance wrote:First interview with the carjacked man.

- "Danny tried to send telepathic messages to the officers inside"

- "Girls, credit limits for students, the marvels of the Mercedes ML 350 and the iPhone 5, whether anyone still listens to CDs -- all were discussed by the two 26-year-olds and the 19-year-old driving around on a Thursday night."

http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/04 ... story.html


Maybe Im naive and a sucker, but I can buy pretty much the gist of what "Danny" has told the media and investigators.


That's no wonder since it was written by the dude who wrote The Will to Kill: Making Sense of Senseless Murder.

Look, it's not that the story as fully stated in its 5th contradictory incarnation complete with "Tarrantino details" is so inherently unbelievable. It's that it is so fucking convenient and necessary to THE BROTHERS DID IT, ASK NO FURTHER QUESTIONS EXCEPT WHETHER TO USE EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION narrative. The reason you don't see that is because you have been convinced the brothers were involved from the start because that fits your view of how events like this typically transpire.

But just suppose just for a minute that the brothers were nothing but Plan D patsies of interest who just happened to be spotted by security cameras in the wrong place and wrong time wearing the wrong colored backpacks.

Who first described their confession, to both the senseless bombing and the senseless execution? Danny Boy, only to have it later "confirmed" by the mute suspect via unnamed FBI sources.

Who first described their motive for both the senseless bombing and the senseless execution? Danny Boy, only to have it later "confirmed" by the mute suspect via unnamed FBI sources.

Who first described their imminent plans for further attacks, clearly justifying the extreme show of force used to locate a single, slight, injured, unarmed teenager? Danny Boy, only to have it later "confirmed" by the mute suspect via unnamed FBI sources.

Who chaperoned Danny Boy's two and a half hour interview that makes sense of their senseless murders? The guy who literally wrote the book The Will to Kill: Making Sense of Senseless Murder.

Imagine what the columnists' headlines would read without Danny Boy's story. WHY DID HE DO IT? WHAT TURNED A NORMAL, EVERYDAY KID INTO A MAD BOMBER?


For those interested in reading more about James Alan Fox:

viewtopic.php?p=495767#p495767

But especially starting here:

viewtopic.php?p=496327#p496327

The Fox panel study is a fraud. Yes, it took place, but Fox lied about meeting or talking to the parents.

Assisted by a panel of three people, he has been lucky that family members of the victims, as well as Mr. Huff's mother and twin brother, Kane, who were unavailable for interviews for this article, have spoken to him, Dr. Fox said.


I was the only parent Fox contacted and that took place via telephone after the Panel report was completed and this NY Times article was published. Imagine my astonishment, if you will, that while I awaited for the article "After 7 Deaths, Digging for an Explanation" load on my 26.4kb dial-up connection, which I had no idea was related to the Seattle murders, my phone rang and I left the room to get my phone and as I answered it while returning to the still loading page, I read "James Alan Fox" at the same moment he uttered those very words, telling me whom was calling.

Pretty freaky! and oh, so suspicious.


And, re-read Iamwhomiam's post about Fox above, in this Boston thread.

Yes, yes, Doctor Fox, tell us more about how being brothers is the key. Tell us more!
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:02 pm

barracuda wrote:Damn it - I think I just belabored you with a point-by-point gainsay response to your each and every quoted thoughtcrime!


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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:10 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:To anyone losing patience with this often bizarrely pointmissing (or point-avoiding) marathon thread, please read the mainstream news articles posted and linked to by stickdog99 on pp. 100-102. (The alleged interview with Anonymous "Danny", the allegedly carjacked driver, deserves some kind of a prize. It really does read like an unusually clumsy satire, but no, we're apparently expected to take it seriously. Maybe they're really testing the limits of how much bullshit people will swallow and still call caviare.)


Or maybe the guy who wrote it's just a hack, dealing in broad cliches that are easily graspable by all people with fifth-grade reading-comprehension skills or better..

Shocking to think that a mass-circulation newspaper that makes its profits off of ad-sales that are priced in accordance with audited readership numbers might value work like that, I know. But you have to expect the unexpected, sometimes.

Dzokhar Tsernaev is innocent until proven guilty. Right?


Not in every irony-drenched sense of the phrase, no. But if you're not just using it rhetorically to mean something completely different from what it does in the context of his arrest and upcoming trial:

Too soon to say. But so far, nothing says otherwise.

The Miranda thing says his right to a fair trial was violated, assuming the judge allows whatever he said before they read him his rights into evidence, imo. But that's not a presumption-of-innocence issue. .I'm just saying.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:18 pm

FourthBase wrote:And, re-read Iamwhomiam's post about Fox above, in this Boston thread.

Yes, yes, Doctor Fox, tell us more about how being brothers is the key. Tell us more!


Wow! It seems Fox is quite the bad penny.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:39 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
compared2what? wrote:I mean, using that video to show that police forced the people of Watertown from their homes is like using the Gulf of Tonkin to show a cause for war.


I didn't reference a video. perhaps your comment is misplaced here.


I know. I was just saying that to no one as a follow-up on my remarks to KarmaMatterz when I saw your post, so I piggybacked.

And now I'm just taking the opportunity to highlight the point. But it's not addressed to you. It's just an observation.

There are videos though, showing people being involuntarily removed from their homes. You've seen at least one of them, so I don't understand why you are insisting that it absolutely didn't happen.


I've seen one video. What I'm saying didn't DEMONSTRABLY happen is:

People being forced from their homes as part of the manhunt/show of force. Systematically. Or even at all.

Because it's not clear that's what's going on in that video. It could just be a bust. Also, IIRC, they're not using paramilitary props or weapons or other unusual devices or tactics. There are a lot of them. But that's not unheard of when they're busting a whole houseful of people.

C_w wrote:
compared2what? wrote:
it's funny, because as I began reading these last few sentences you wrote I was bouyed! I had a whole different notion of where you might be going with it when you said, "It's a scare tactic thing." I thought you were talking about using the APCs for the domestic assault home visit. alas, you weren't.


No, I wasn't.

...

Honestly, I keep reconsidering it. But I just can't say that's what it is.


You can't say that what's what what is?

edited to fix formating


I can't say that using that gear was a scare tactic by the state aimed at the general public. Because in itself, nothing in the way they used it or the way it was photographed says that they're going to do anything to the general public with (or without) it that they don't already do. So you'd have to think that they were going to use it on the general public going in in order to get the message. In which case, it wouldn't be necessary for them to send it.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:54 pm

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