NSA logging everything from Verizon

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NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby DrEvil » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:28 pm

And probably all the other major telecoms.

The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... ourt-order

Not that it's really surprising, but it's nice to see the actual court order.
(The full court order: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interac ... ourt-order).
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:16 pm

DrEvil » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:28 pm wrote:And probably all the other major telecoms.

The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... ourt-order

Not that it's really surprising, but it's nice to see the actual court order.
(The full court order: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interac ... ourt-order).


Indeed.

And surprising to no one, the current administration is of course defending it -- for our SAFETY.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... on-records

The White House has sought to justify its surveillance of millions of Americans' phone records as anger grows over revelations that a secret court order gives the National Security Agency blanket authority to collect call data from a major phone carrier.

Politicians and civil liberties campaigners described the disclosures, revealed by the Guardian on Wednesday, as the most sweeping intrusion into private data they had ever seen by the US government.

But the Obama administration, while declining to comment on the specific order, said the practice was "a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats to the United States".

The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19.

Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.

The disclosure has reignited longstanding debates in the US over the proper extent of the government's domestic spying powers.

Under the Bush administration, officials in security agencies had disclosed to reporters the large-scale collection of call records data by the NSA, but this is the first time significant and top-secret documents have revealed the continuation of the practice under President Obama.

The White House stressed that orders such as the one disclosed by the Guardian would only cover data about the calls rather than their content. A senior administration official said: "Information of the sort described in the Guardian article has been a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats to the United States, as it allows counter-terrorism personnel to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities, particularly people located inside the United States.

"As we have publicly stated before, all three branches of government are involved in reviewing and authorising intelligence collection under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Congress passed that act and is regularly and fully briefed on how it is used, and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court authorises such collection. There is a robust legal regime in place governing all activities conducted pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act."

The administration stressed that the court order obtained by the Guardian relates to call data, and does not allow the government to listen in to anyone's calls.

This point was also made by the chairman of the Senate intelligence committee, Dianne Feinstein. "This is just meta data. There is no content involved," she told reporters on Capitol Hill. "In other words, no content of a communication. … The records can only be accessed under heightened standards."

However, in 2013, such metadata can provide authorities with vast knowledge about a caller's identity. Particularly when cross-checked against other public records, the metadata can reveal someone's name, address, driver's licence, credit history, social security number and more. Government analysts would be able to work out whether the relationship between two people was ongoing, occasional or a one-off.

"From a civil liberties perspective, the program could hardly be any more alarming. It's a program in which some untold number of innocent people have been put under the constant surveillance of government agents," said Jameel Jaffer, American Civil Liberties Union deputy legal director. "It is beyond Orwellian, and it provides further evidence of the extent to which basic democratic rights are being surrendered in secret to the demands of unaccountable intelligence agencies."


One of the amusing bits about this 'news' is how it's being portrayed as a recent development, or perhaps even a ONE-OFF that will not recur once the court order expires.... or that there's a possibility that the court order may be extended...

As opposed to this being par for the course for years.
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby MinM » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:10 pm

Image @onthemedia: Court order forcing Verizon to hand over call data 'in place since 2006' wny.cc/17rvPaF

Of course a book written in 1982 pretty much covered all of this...
Image
and as alluded to in this 1998 Tony Scott movie

The NSA monitors everything...always has. :offair:
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby justdrew » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:25 pm

typical bullshit.

‘Fox & Friends’ suddenly against wiretapping they supported under Bush
By David Ferguson | Thursday, June 6, 2013 9:40 EDT


Thursday morning on the Fox News Channel’s morning show “Fox and Friends,” the three hosts responded with alarm to news that the National Security Agency has been collecting the phone records of millions of cell phone customers wholesale and with no regard to accusations of wrongdoing.

The trio were clearly alarmed about the spying, saying that it might be a violation of the PATRIOT Act.

“What is the objective of getting these numbers and collecting all these numbers from all the millions of Americans?” asked co-host Brian Kilmeade. “Are they overseas calls? Is there terror activity? Is there reason to be suspicious? Or is this abuse of the PATRIOT Act?”

Steve Doocy, suddenly a legal expert of PATRIOT Act violations, said that this kind of data seizure is a violation of the Act’s section 215, which “said that you could go after people based on individual investigations,” but forbids data collection from average citizens. He went on to call it a “gigantic overreach” on the Obama administration’s part.

However, in 2006, Doocy and other Fox hosts were saying the exact opposite about NSA wiretaps.

Media Matters reported that in the wake of revelations that the NSA might be conducting wholesale data-mining on U.S. citizens, the hosts of “Fox and Friends” openly nixed the term “warrantless wiretapping” in favor of calling the spying “the terrorist surveillance program” and went out of their way to justify the practice.

On January 25, 2006, Kilmeade said, “Let’s call it the terrorist surveillance program. That would be a lot easier.”

Doocy concurred, “And more accurate.”

“Yeah, more accurate too,” Kilmeade said. “If you’re for the NSA wiretapping without going to the FISA court, I guess warrantless, then most likely you’re Republican. If you are against it, you most likely are a Democrat.”
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:14 pm

.

From the above quoted article:

“If you’re for the NSA wiretapping without going to the FISA court, I guess warrantless, then most likely you’re Republican. If you are against it, you most likely are a Democrat.”


insipid partisan-generating nonsense. ASSHOLES.

How about being against it because it's FASCIST?
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby RocketMan » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:26 am

justdrew » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:25 pm wrote:typical bullshit.

‘Fox & Friends’ suddenly against wiretapping they supported under Bush
By David Ferguson | Thursday, June 6, 2013 9:40 EDT


Thursday morning on the Fox News Channel’s morning show “Fox and Friends,” the three hosts responded with alarm to news that the National Security Agency has been collecting the phone records of millions of cell phone customers wholesale and with no regard to accusations of wrongdoing.

The trio were clearly alarmed about the spying, saying that it might be a violation of the PATRIOT Act.

“What is the objective of getting these numbers and collecting all these numbers from all the millions of Americans?” asked co-host Brian Kilmeade. “Are they overseas calls? Is there terror activity? Is there reason to be suspicious? Or is this abuse of the PATRIOT Act?”

Steve Doocy, suddenly a legal expert of PATRIOT Act violations, said that this kind of data seizure is a violation of the Act’s section 215, which “said that you could go after people based on individual investigations,” but forbids data collection from average citizens. He went on to call it a “gigantic overreach” on the Obama administration’s part.

However, in 2006, Doocy and other Fox hosts were saying the exact opposite about NSA wiretaps.

Media Matters reported that in the wake of revelations that the NSA might be conducting wholesale data-mining on U.S. citizens, the hosts of “Fox and Friends” openly nixed the term “warrantless wiretapping” in favor of calling the spying “the terrorist surveillance program” and went out of their way to justify the practice.

On January 25, 2006, Kilmeade said, “Let’s call it the terrorist surveillance program. That would be a lot easier.”

Doocy concurred, “And more accurate.”

“Yeah, more accurate too,” Kilmeade said. “If you’re for the NSA wiretapping without going to the FISA court, I guess warrantless, then most likely you’re Republican. If you are against it, you most likely are a Democrat.”


I find it infinitely amusing that Fox & Friends are boosting a story broken and being reported by Glenn Greenwald of all people... And when was the last time that The Guardian was cool on Fox. :rofl2
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:44 am

The Unknown Patriot Who Exposed the Government's Verizon Spy Program
In praise of whistle-blowers whose risky disclosures of official wrongdoing make the nation stronger rather than weaker
CONOR FRIEDERSDORFJUN 6 2013, 6:00 AM ET

The federal government forced Verizon to turn over information on the phone calls of millions of innocent Americans and forbade them from telling anybody about it, The Guardian reports. Kudos to Glenn Greenwald, Ewen MacAskill, and Spencer Ackerman for the impressive scoop, and for posting the evidence here.

Who helped the journalists obtain that "top-secret" court order?

Hopefully, that's going to stay secret for a long time. As Charlie Savage and Edward Wyatt note in the New York Times, "The order was marked TOP SECRET//SI//NOFORN, referring to communications-related intelligence information that may not be released to noncitizens. That would make it among the most closely held secrets in the federal government, and its disclosure comes amid a furor over the Obama administration's aggressive tactics in its investigations of leaks." In other words, it was likely leaked by someone who took a personal risk exposing it.

Why? It is impossible to know. But it isn't hard to identify likely motives. Perhaps the leaker felt morally repulsed by the knowledge that the government is spying on millions of innocent citizens in secret, something normally associated with Communist and fascist regimes, not democratic republics. (It's true that the order doesn't cover the content of calls, and that a separate warrant is needed to connect the information to actual users -- not that we'd know if they sought those, or if officials now or in the future just ignored that legal requirement to spy on individuals. One wonders what Richard Nixon would've done with access to all that information.)

Perhaps the spying offended the leaker's patriotism, since it transgresses against traditional American values. Perhaps the questionable legality of the warrantless spying prompted the leaker to act.

The motive could've been the leaker's perception that secretly vesting the government with the power to know who is calling whom, when, and perhaps even from what location, invites abuses so severe that they obviously outweigh whatever legitimate benefits come from this practice.

Finally, the leaker might think that if the government is going to spy on a massive scale, it ought to be something the polity knows about and debates, not the secret machinations of a segregated ruling class doing things that would shock many who they're paid to represent.

Any of those motives would cause me to regard the leaker as a hero. If one of them explains the leak, then thank you, unknown American. May you inspire future leakers to follow their consciences when government is transgressing against basic norms of justice (and to exercise good judgment and due caution to refrain from releasing information that really ought to stay secret.) Anyone uncomfortable with the government secretly obtaining information about all of your phone calls, possibly including your physical location when you make them, should remember this case the next time Team Obama talks about the perniciousness of national-security leaks.

Some leaks are pernicious -- but certainly not this one.

There would be fewer leaks if the Bush and Obama administrations hadn't improperly hid so much of consequence from the American people, including policies that made federal employees uncomfortable or ashamed, usually because they're illegal, immoral, or at odds with American values.

As a first-term Illinois senator turned president-elect once put it, "often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance." Just as we celebrate Daniel Ellsberg of Pentagon Papers fame, recognizing that his leak made America stronger rather than weaker, I hope and trust we'll one day celebrate the War on Terror leakers who kept reminding Americans that their national security state is out of control.
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby DrEvil » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:00 am

Correction - NSA is logging everything.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=34284&start=15
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:01 am

2/5/2006



Telecoms let NSA spy on calls
By Leslie Cauley and John Diamond, USA TODAY
The National Security Agency has secured the cooperation of large telecommunications companies, including AT&T, MCI and Sprint, in its efforts to eavesdrop without warrants on international calls by suspected terrorists, according to seven telecommunications executives.
Image
Michael Hayden, former head of the NSA, during a hearing last week on Capitol Hill.
Alex Wong, Getty Images
The executives asked to remain anonymous because of the sensitivity of the program. AT&T, MCI and Sprint had no official comment.

The Senate Judiciary Committee begins hearings today on the government's program of monitoring international calls and e-mails of a domestic target without first obtaining court orders. At issue: whether the surveillance is legal, as President Bush insists, or an illegal intrusion into the lives of Americans, as lawsuits by civil libertarians contend. (Related: Committee chief says program violates law)

In domestic investigations, phone companies routinely require court orders before cooperating.

A majority of international calls are handled by long-distance carriers AT&T, MCI and Sprint. All three own "gateway" switches capable of routing calls to points around the globe. AT&T was recently acquired by SBC Communications, which has since adopted the AT&T name as its corporate moniker. MCI, formerly known as WorldCom, was recently acquired by Verizon. Sprint recently merged with Nextel.

The New York Times, which disclosed the clandestine operation in December, previously reported that telecommunications companies have been cooperating with the government, but it did not name the companies involved. (Related: Bush says NSA program is legal)

Decisions about monitoring calls are made in four steps, according to two U.S. intelligence officials familiar with the program who insisted on anonymity because it remains classified:

• Information from U.S. or allied intelligence or law enforcement points to a terrorism-related target either based in the United States or communicating with someone in the United States.

• Using a 48-point checklist to identify possible links to al-Qaeda, one of three NSA officials authorized to approve a warrantless intercept decides whether the surveillance is justified. Gen. Michael Hayden, the nation's No. 2 intelligence officer, said the checklist focuses on ensuring that there is a "reasonable basis" for believing there is a terrorist link involved.

• Technicians work with phone company officials to intercept communications pegged to a particular person or phone number. Telecommunications executives say MCI, AT&T and Sprint grant the access to their systems without warrants or court orders. Instead, they are cooperating on the basis of oral requests from senior government officials.

• If the surveillance yields information about a terror plot, the NSA notifies the FBI or other appropriate agencies but does not always disclose the source of its information. Call-routing information provided by the phone companies can help intelligence officialseavesdrop on a conversation. It also helps them physically locate the parties, which is important if cellphones are being used. If the U.S. end of a communication has nothing to do with terrorism, the identity of the party is suppressed and the content of the communication destroyed, Hayden has said.

The government has refused to publicly discuss the precise number of individuals targeted.

The Times and The Washington Post have said thousands have had communications intercepted.

The two intelligence officials said that number has been whittled down to about 600 people in the United States who have been targeted for repeated surveillance since the Sept. 11 attacks
.
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:47 pm

NSA PRISM program taps in to user data of Facebook, Yahoo and others
• Top secret PRISM program claims direct access to servers of firms including Google, Apple and Facebook
• Companies deny any knowledge of program in operation since 2007
Image
Glenn Greenwald and Ewen MacAskill
The Guardian, Thursday 6 June 2013

A slide depicting the top-secret PRISM program
The National Security Agency has obtained direct access to the systems of Google, Facebook, Apple and other US internet giants, according to a top secret document obtained by the Guardian.

The NSA access is part of a previously undisclosed program called PRISM, which allows officials to collect material including search history, the content of emails, file transfers and live chats, the document says.

The Guardian has verified the authenticity of the document, a 41-slide PowerPoint presentation – classified as top secret with no distribution to foreign allies – which was apparently used to train intelligence operatives on the capabilities of the program. The document claims "collection directly from the servers" of major US service providers.

Although the presentation claims the program is run with the assistance of the companies, all those who responded to a Guardian request for comment on Thursday denied knowledge of any such program.

In a statement, Google said: "Google cares deeply about the security of our users' data. We disclose user data to government in accordance with the law, and we review all such requests carefully. From time to time, people allege that we have created a government 'back door' into our systems, but Google does not have a back door for the government to access private user data."

Several senior tech executives insisted that they had no knowledge of PRISM or of any similar scheme. They said they would never have been involved in such a program. "If they are doing this, they are doing it without our knowledge," one said.

An Apple spokesman said it had "never heard" of PRISM.

The NSA access was enabled by changes to US surveillance law introduced under President Bush and renewed under Obama in December 2012.

Image
The program facilitates extensive, in-depth surveillance on live communications and stored information. The law allows for the targeting of any customers of participating firms who live outside the US, or those Americans whose communications include people outside the US.

It also opens the possibility of communications made entirely within the US being collected without warrants.

Disclosure of the PRISM program follows a leak to the Guardian on Wednesday of a top-secret court order compelling telecoms provider Verizon to turn over the telephone records of millions of US customers.

The participation of the internet companies in PRISM will add to the debate, ignited by the Verizon revelation, about the scale of surveillance by the intelligence services. Unlike the collection of those call records, this surveillance can include the content of communications and not just the metadata.

Some of the world's largest internet brands are claimed to be part of the information-sharing program since its introduction in 2007. Microsoft – which is currently running an advertising campaign with the slogan "Your privacy is our priority" – was the first, with collection beginning in December 2007.

It was followed by Yahoo in 2008; Google, Facebook and PalTalk in 2009; YouTube in 2010; Skype and AOL in 2011; and finally Apple, which joined the program in 2012. The program is continuing to expand, with other providers due to come online.

Collectively, the companies cover the vast majority of online email, search, video and communications networks.

Image

The extent and nature of the data collected from each company varies.

Companies are legally obliged to comply with requests for users' communications under US law, but the PRISM program allows the intelligence services direct access to the companies' servers. The NSA document notes the operations have "assistance of communications providers in the US".

The revelation also supports concerns raised by several US senators during the renewal of the Fisa Amendments Act in December 2012, who warned about the scale of surveillance the law might enable, and shortcomings in the safeguards it introduces.

When the FAA was first enacted, defenders of the statute argued that a significant check on abuse would be the NSA's inability to obtain electronic communications without the consent of the telecom and internet companies that control the data. But the PRISM program renders that consent unnecessary, as it allows the agency to directly and unilaterally seize the communications off the companies' servers.

A chart prepared by the NSA, contained within the top-secret document obtained by the Guardian, underscores the breadth of the data it is able to obtain: email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, voice-over-IP (Skype, for example) chats, file transfers, social networking details, and more.

Image

The document is recent, dating to April 2013. Such a leak is extremely rare in the history of the NSA, which prides itself on maintaining a high level of secrecy.

The PRISM program allows the NSA, the world's largest surveillance organisation, to obtain targeted communications without having to request them from the service providers and without having to obtain individual court orders.

With this program, the NSA is able to reach directly into the servers of the participating companies and obtain both stored communications as well as perform real-time collection on targeted users.

The presentation claims PRISM was introduced to overcome what the NSA regarded as shortcomings of Fisa warrants in tracking suspected foreign terrorists. It noted that the US has a "home-field advantage" due to housing much of the internet's architecture. But the presentation claimed "Fisa constraints restricted our home-field advantage" because Fisa required individual warrants and confirmations that both the sender and receiver of a communication were outside the US.

"Fisa was broken because it provided privacy protections to people who were not entitled to them," the presentation claimed. "It took a Fisa court order to collect on foreigners overseas who were communicating with other foreigners overseas simply because the government was collecting off a wire in the United States. There were too many email accounts to be practical to seek Fisas for all."

The new measures introduced in the FAA redefines "electronic surveillance" to exclude anyone "reasonably believed" to be outside the USA – a technical change which reduces the bar to initiating surveillance.

The act also gives the director of national intelligence and the attorney general power to permit obtaining intelligence information, and indemnifies internet companies against any actions arising as a result of co-operating with authorities' requests.

In short, where previously the NSA needed individual authorisations, and confirmation that all parties were outside the USA, they now need only reasonable suspicion that one of the parties was outside the country at the time of the records were collected by the NSA.

The document also shows the FBI acts as an intermediary between other agencies and the tech companies, and stresses its reliance on the participation of US internet firms, claiming "access is 100% dependent on ISP provisioning".

In the document, the NSA hails the PRISM program as "one of the most valuable, unique and productive accesses for NSA".

It boasts of what it calls "strong growth" in its use of the PRISM program to obtain communications. The document highlights the number of obtained communications increased in 2012 by 248% for Skype – leading the notes to remark there was "exponential growth in Skype reporting; looks like the word is getting out about our capability against Skype". There was also a 131% increase in requests for Facebook data, and 63% for Google.

The NSA document indicates that it is planning to add Dropbox as a PRISM provider. The agency also seeks, in its words, to "expand collection services from existing providers".

The revelations echo fears raised on the Senate floor last year during the expedited debate on the renewal of the FAA powers which underpin the PRISM program, which occurred just days before the act expired.

Senator Christopher Coons of Delaware specifically warned that the secrecy surrounding the various surveillance programs meant there was no way to know if safeguards within the act were working.

"The problem is: we here in the Senate and the citizens we represent don't know how well any of these safeguards actually work," he said.

"The law doesn't forbid purely domestic information from being collected. We know that at least one Fisa court has ruled that the surveillance program violated the law. Why? Those who know can't say and average Americans can't know."

Other senators also raised concerns. Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon attempted, without success, to find out any information on how many phone calls or emails had been intercepted under the program.

When the law was enacted, defenders of the FAA argued that a significant check on abuse would be the NSA's inability to obtain electronic communications without the consent of the telecom and internet companies that control the data. But the PRISM program renders that consent unnecessary, as it allows the agency to directly and unilaterally seize the communications off the companies' servers.

When the NSA reviews a communication it believes merits further investigation, it issues what it calls a "report". According to the NSA, "over 2,000 PRISM-based reports" are now issued every month. There were 24,005 in 2012, a 27% increase on the previous year.

In total, more than 77,000 intelligence reports have cited the PRISM program.

Jameel Jaffer, director of the ACLU's Center for Democracy, that it was astonishing the NSA would even ask technology companies to grant direct access to user data.

"It's shocking enough just that the NSA is asking companies to do this," he said. "The NSA is part of the military. The military has been granted unprecedented access to civilian communications.

"This is unprecedented militarisation of domestic communications infrastructure. That's profoundly troubling to anyone who is concerned about that separation."

A senior administration official said in a statement: "The Guardian and Washington Post articles refer to collection of communications pursuant to Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. This law does not allow the targeting of any US citizen or of any person located within the United States.

"The program is subject to oversight by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the Executive Branch, and Congress. It involves extensive procedures, specifically approved by the court, to ensure that only non-US persons outside the US are targeted, and that minimize the acquisition, retention and dissemination of incidentally acquired information about US persons.

"This program was recently reauthorized by Congress after extensive hearings and debate.

"Information collected under this program is among the most important and valuable intelligence information we collect, and is used to protect our nation from a wide variety of threats.

"The Government may only use Section 702 to acquire foreign intelligence information, which is specifically, and narrowly, defined in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. This requirement applies across the board, regardless of the nationality of the target."
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby justdrew » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:06 pm

it's possible this PRISM system is setup such that on the 'date collection started' is in fact when these companies started keeping a secured backup store of all this data. Mostly PRISM then, is a way of aggregating and automating Law Enforcement Requests for assistance to those companies, backed up with the assurance that the companies have the data held in the secure backups.

This would make a lot of sense. The government wouldn't have to store exponentially growing terabytes of constantly changing proprietary data formats, etc. When they have a suspect, they then only need to fill out one form to request data dumps from all the participating companies. and each participating company can honestly say, they do not have any "government backdoors"

This simplicity would fit well with the figure of $20mil a year cost for PRISM seen in the leaked PP.

I have to say, this and the telephony metadata thing are nothing to be concerned about, these programs APPEAR AT THIS TIME to be a well balanced approach to security/privacy in the 21st century.

the metadata is stored encrypted and can't be accessed except through the query system, which is no-doubt logged and well secured. It's certainly possible to build a system to store this kind of simple data that would protect it from unauthorized/unauthenticated use. Of course, it might be possible for the users of the system to run searches that are off-the-books or cloak unauthorized searches within authorized ones, but that's a risk with any system. The data is likely Too Big to Leak and never user accessible (not even to root) unencrypted (I would hope).

Now the reason it's well balanced likely has a LOT to do with all the people who advocate for privacy and against unwarranted surveillance, so well done folks!
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby justdrew » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:00 pm

another thing is, all this data EXISTS, whether the Feds get a feed of it or not. Verizon and every other cell operator all already have this info. How hard would it be for a criminal enterprise of any sort to get employees into those companies and so have access to all this info?

Where's the concern over how the cellphone companies protect the data in the first place?

Don't I recall that some 3rd party non-US company handles most phone billing? (this metadata is the same data a billing operation would collect and process).

My point is that it's likely much of this info is already accessible by possibly 'bad' guys...
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby smiths » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:11 pm

just a little point that's worth making,

once again its the Guardian which is releasing deep secrets into the mainstream, and everyone else is following,

thank fuck there is one independent newspaper that still has some integrity,

i recently submitted a uni essay for politics on Syria and the significantly manufactured 'popular' uprising and i was very heavy on Guardian references and my tutor questioned me about relying too heavily on one news source, i argued back that the Guardian had been the most reliable mainstream news source of the last decade and i was therefore justified in giving it greater weight in my references
she didnt much care for my argument, i maintain that it is a fair argument
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby Canadian_watcher » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:15 pm

justdrew » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:00 pm wrote:
My point is that it's likely much of this info is already accessible by possibly 'bad' guys...


One day it's going to dawn on you that the baddest of bad guys are the guys who can put you in jail or torture you "LEGALLY" and based on bullshit, cooked up 'evidence.'

If what you are saying is that they already cook up bullshit evidence on people anyway, WITHOUT the aid of actual electronic recordings of every telephone and email conversation you've ever had then ok. You're right. However, the fact that they can claim they have iron clad evidence in the form of digital recordings of every conversation someone has had is a force all on its own, just like DNA evidence is to a great extent.

It's a way for them to say "see, it's a sure thing" thereby justifying their accusations of guilt even before a trial. If the police could say they had all your records going back ten years and they knew, for 100% certain that you were the suspect they were looking for I'd bet that your own mother would believe the police over you due to this new technology.

These things are more dangerous than the surface appearance -- it's a mind prison. It's psychological control. They might not even HAVE this technology, but the mere idea that they do is enough for the intended result.

Know what I mean?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: NSA logging everything from Verizon

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:44 pm

Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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